Dele

[Mr. Voldemort]

NO ONE played well last night, this suggests an issue with the team, not any one individual and that's a problem that the manager has to be responsible for.

We are faced with exactly the same scenario as we were when we went to Turfmore last season, where an absolute shitshow of a first-half (2nd half really wasn't much better) was put on the shoulders of a single player (when all 10 outfield players were poor).

The team didn't know what to do, this wasn't Dele's fault, Vinícius fault, Bales fault, Kane's fault, Son's fault, Davies fault, Lucas's fault..........

Yes, we can look at what he did or didn't do but do you know what he was supposed to do? But do you know what Vinícius was supposed to be doing? It looked to me like we were lobbing a long ball from the back to him, asking him to hold it up or knock it on, but to who? There were no runs from Bale or Bergwijn. Was Dele playing as a 10? If so, where was the movement for him off the ball?

With the greatest respect it doesn't matter what a player is 'supposed' to be doing on the pitch when he goes out and does absolutely nothing. Alli didn't look lost or confused last night, he just looked disinterested and apathetic.

 

[mikes01666]

I kind of get what you're saying Mike but I still think it's possible to rotate this squad, it's huge and has proven talent.

The ones that will struggle to integrate will always be the new players, especially those from non-PL and I'd argue that those players will benefit more than say Dele would playing in the established team line-up. So, for example, Vinícius would speed up his integration if playing with Kane (who could be a 10 or a two up top option), Son, Lucas.

However, I still have doubts over how we play, by that I mean that word again "identity". What is it? Are we a counter-attacking side? There have been 45mins where we look to have put together great passages of play, repeated patterns to our play but with the exception of Newcastle game I've not seen it for a 90min period. So, this adds another layer of complexity to bedding in new players and have them understand their roles. I mean are we asking Vinícius to drop deep like Kane, and spray balls out wide to runners like Son & Lucas (or overlapping FB's)? If so there were NO runs yesterday from Bergwijn and Bale, so what was expected from him?

Thursday, whilst not a problem on it's own (it's a group game in a group which we should top) showed a bigger issue in that I'm not convinced we are a team that is structured with a blueprint to how we play. It possibly shows that we are reliant on the brilliance of Kane, Son & Ndombele who figure out something.

The concept of rotation is fine as long as it's a reasonable number (not 9!). Injuries and loss of form will always force you to make changes.

Limiting rotation (in my view) of the defence is perhaps the most important. Get the defence to play as a unit week in, week out until you're forced to make changes either through injury or form. The seemingly random swapping of Davies for Reguillon and Aurier for Doherty only fuels the thought "who's next to me today" and "do I trust him to do his job?" The CBs never venture beyond the half way line (except for set pieces) so playing twice a week should be no problem.

I have no problem with playing Vicinius for Kane ( to protect his ankles) or Bale for Son (who may still be feeling an injury niggle) - they need to be able to show what they can do. I agree, Vicinius was let down yesterday by Bale and Bergwijn.

Changing nine players from last Sunday and then playing Davies out of position verged on madness.

Having said all that Antwerp were very good. Thankfully we've only got a week to wait before exacting revenge.

 

[Baggio1]

Then you risk being in the scenario of 60 mins played and 2-0 down. Easy in hindsight to say the changes didn't work but in my opinion it was the correct decision at the right time. Jose gave that team a chance to prove he had an A and a B squad strong enough to challenge for the Premier and Europa league titles. He did not get the responses he was looking for so decided to put on the big guns and try to win the match rather than just salvage a draw.
Okay. it didn't work but I'd rather see that than when we used to watch Poch sit on his hands until at least the 70th minute before he finally realised something needed changing. Don't just blame the manager for trying a total of16 players last night and still suffering defeat. Everyone needs to take the blame firmly and squarely on the jaw, if they don't then we risk such a debacle happening again and again.

So if we are 1-0 down to Brighton on Sunday and kane and son are having a mare you fully expect them to be hauled off at half time?
It was the 2nd game of the Europa league a game we didn't need to win. Those players should of been given the chance to sort it out. What mourinho did by embarrassing them including bale can only have negative effects

 

[Igula]

With the greatest respect it doesn't matter what a player is 'supposed' to be doing on the pitch when he goes out and does absolutely nothing. Alli didn't look lost or confused last night, he just looked disinterested and apathetic.

I think he definitely looked confused, but I think he often looks confused out there because he doesn't know where to go or how to find space when he doesn't have Kane, Eriksen and Dembele pulling defenders away from him creating clear pockets of space for him to go to.

 

[Yiddy]

Posters can slate Alli all day and night but I feel for him.

Not because he won't have all the money he probably needs to live a good life already but because I think he knows the magic he once had may now be gone............ aged 24.

We can say all we like but I think none of us would cope well or know what to do if we thought we were working hard and yet in our area of work and where it mattered it just wasn't there.

What he has is still there you don't lose that imo. The issue I have is that this is all his own doing. He's taken his eye off the ball and decided other things are more important and he's got nobody else to blame for that but himself. This has been nearly 3 years of poor form. He's had an ample amount of time to sort himself out but has made the choice not to. I'd of thought losing his england place would of been the huge wake up call he needed but even than hasn't jolted him into life.

 

[Igula]

So if we are 1-0 down to Brighton on Sunday and kane and son are having a mare you fully expect them to be hauled off at half time?
It was the 2nd game of the Europa league a game we didn't need to win. Those players should of been given the chance to sort it out. What mourinho did by embarrassing them including bale can only have negative effects

I think Kane and Son have earned more leeway than guys like Alli who have shown for a year or more that they don't have the ability or desire to turn things around.

Also have never seen Kane or Son play as poorly or look as out of it as Alli and Bale did yesterday.

The players were given a chance to sort it out and didn't once look like they had either the desire or ability to do so. If they were trying and being stymied by good defense it would be one thing, but they were standing around static, not even trying to figure things out.

 

[Paul Gascoigne]

Thanks for the memory, in the words of the song........GO NOW !

 

[Igula]

What he has is still there you don't lose that imo. The issue I have is that this is all his own doing. He's taken his eye off the ball and decided other things are more important and he's got nobody else to blame for that but himself. This has been nearly 3 years of poor form. He's had an ample amount of time to sort himself out but has made the choice not to. I'd of thought losing his england place would of been the huge wake up call he needed but even than hasn't jolted him into life.

What does he have?

He has never been a good passer of the ball, never been a guy who tracks back or is good in defense, he isn't a guy who is hard to play against, he doesn't have a tremendous shot or is a risk from free kicks, he is at best adequate in the air.

At his best he was able to be a guy who could drift into wide open spaces and convert chances that came from others. I am not sure even at his best he created much on his own. I don't remember many games where he made insightful runs to get open or beat multiple guys to score (I am sure it happened just didn't seem to be a regular thing for him). I certainly don't remember many key passes, especially long passes that he made to create for others.

 

[Paul Gascoigne]

Go now

 

[Paul Gascoigne]

Please go now

 

[Paul Gascoigne]

Please go now before we start to hate you

 

[Baggio1]

I think Kane and Son have earned more leeway than guys like Alli who have shown for a year or more that they don't have the ability or desire to turn things around.

Also have never seen Kane or Son play as poorly or look as out of it as Alli and Bale did yesterday.

The players were given a chance to sort it out and didn't once look like they had either the desire or ability to do so. If they were trying and being stymied by good defense it would be one thing, but they were standing around static, not even trying to figure things out.

Maybe you should rewatch the Brighton game from last season then if you've never seen any players play as poorly as alli and bale did yesterday

 

[mikes01666]

Davies has played a lot at CB over his career and looked better at CB last week then he has at any point at LB for us.

Also, outside of one play, that had little to do with him being played at CB, he was effective yesterday as well.

Rotation will always be a part of the game but I think what we should do/have done is have a core of players for the Europa League so that the rotation has less of an effective on the play.

Maybe some will say it is hindsight but I think the squad yesterday had too many guys trying to find their game/fitness. Bale, Alli, Bergwijn all are players clearly not at their peak right now and it showed. having them all out their trying to get things right made the team very disjointed.

OK we disagree.

In my view you build a team around a solid defence that plays together at every opportunity and know each other's game instinctively. Don't rotate your defence unless forced.

As I've said in another post, making nine changes from Sunday and playing Davies out of position verged on madness.

I've no idea how often Davies has played as a CB. Whilst at Spurs, I do recall one good game at CB last season when we were injury ravaged and he had a good game last week. Unfortunately that does not make him a good CB. As for being effective yesterday, I remember him cutting out a couple of dangerous crosses and a couple of good forward passes, oh, and their goal. He's spent his formative years learning how to be a LB/LWB and then we play him as a CB? It doesn't make sense in my book.

 

[Paul Gascoigne]

I do think we give him a last chance this season to prove he can get his mojo back. He’s not going to play every match and only needs a few good performances to be worth no less in the summer as he is now. Still contracted till 2024, so we shouldn’t lose too much value in taking a punt.

Him coming back in a City or United shirt terrifies me.

Really?

United won't buy him.

City could have a midfield of Winks and Dele. Yep then we would win the league !

 

[Yiddy]

What does he have?

He has never been a good passer of the ball, never been a guy who tracks back or is good in defense, he isn't a guy who is hard to play against, he doesn't have a tremendous shot or is a risk from free kicks, he is at best adequate in the air.

At his best he was able to be a guy who could drift into wide open spaces and convert chances that came from others. I am not sure even at his best he created much on his own. I don't remember many games where he made insightful runs to get open or beat multiple guys to score (I am sure it happened just didn't seem to be a regular thing for him). I certainly don't remember many key passes, especially long passes that he made to create for others.

At our best he had many outstanding moments for us. Look at that goal he scored away at Stamford bridge the touch bringing it down from that height was sublime and then has the composure to finish it off. Also something similar at the Emirates in the league cup when he tapped it over the top of their keeper. There is a very very good player there. That's why I don't really have sympathy because I know what he can do. He's just choosing to be lazy and pick off the field interests over football. If he wants to do that that's fine but I'd rather he fucked up his career somewhere else and we can use his money on hungry players commited to the club giving 100%

 

[Mr. Voldemort]

So if we are 1-0 down to Brighton on Sunday and kane and son are having a mare you fully expect them to be hauled off at half time?
It was the 2nd game of the Europa league a game we didn't need to win. Those players should of been given the chance to sort it out. What mourinho did by embarrassing them including bale can only have negative effects

Do you really (and I mean really) expect us to be losing to Brighton 1-0 at half time and both Son and Kane are having 'mares' ?. Should that incredible situation arise then I don't see a problem with them being replaced at half time. It depends on your description of what 'having a mare' is. If it is abundantly clear that it just isn't happening for either of them then how long do you give it before your patience runs out, 60 mins, 70mins, 80 mins ??. Isn't half time the ideal chance to ask them face to face why the drop in form and if you don't get the right answers you make a decision. That's what a manager gets paid megabucks to do.
Mourinho didn't embarass them last night, they did that all by themselves, he simply showed them such a lax attitude would not be tolerated.

 

[Igula]

OK we disagree.

In my view you build a team around a solid defence that plays together at every opportunity and know each other's game instinctively. Don't rotate your defence unless forced.

As I've said in another post, making nine changes from Sunday and playing Davies out of position verged on madness.

I've no idea how often Davies has played as a CB. Whilst at Spurs, I do recall one good game at CB last season when we were injury ravaged and he had a good game last week. Unfortunately that does not make him a good CB. As for being effective yesterday, I remember him cutting out a couple of dangerous crosses and a couple of good forward passes, oh, and their goal. He's spent his formative years learning how to be a LB/LWB and then we play him as a CB? It doesn't make sense in my book.

We have been forced to rotate our defense through injuries, poor play and game congestion. I think it would be ideal to have a set defensive backline, especially at CB but unfortunately outside of Toby we don't have a pair that has played well enough that they should be first choice option.

Davies has played enough times at CB that it really isn't playing him out of position. It is very possible for players to be comfortable at more than one position and it is hardly asking Son to go back to CB. So having him at CB is not playing him out of position. He is comfortable playing there and more than good enough to do so, especially at the Europa League level. His error had nothing to do with him playing in the CB position, in fact in most cases in that spot you would prefer to have a FB with the ball as they are more likely to be used to playing the ball in those types of situations.

 

[Baggio1]

Do you really (and I mean really) expect us to be losing to Brighton 1-0 at half time and both Son and Kane are having 'mares' ?. Should that incredible situation arise then I don't see a problem with them being replaced at half time. It depends on your description of what 'having a mare' is. If it is abundantly clear that it just isn't happening for either of them then how long do you give it before your patience runs out, 60 mins, 70mins, 80 mins ??. Isn't half time the ideal chance to ask them face to face why the drop in form and if you don't get the right answers you make a decision. That's what a manager gets paid megabucks to do.
Mourinho didn't embarass them last night, they did that all by themselves, he simply showed them such a lax attitude would not be tolerated.

It happened to all 11 players against brighton last season so why not?
And yes he did embarrass them without giving them the chance to get themselves out the mess
Then he embarrassed himself by trying to teach players a lesson by sending on his stars who did absolutely nothing

 

[Mr. Voldemort]

It happened to all 11 players against brighton last season so why not?

Ok then, you already have my answer.

 

[Cravenspurs]

With the greatest respect it doesn't matter what a player is 'supposed' to be doing on the pitch when he goes out and does absolutely nothing. Alli didn't look lost or confused last night, he just looked disinterested and apathetic.

Sounds like you are describing my depression symptoms. I get called out in work a lot for looking nonchalant, checked out, disinterested. I suffer from that ill mind and am guilty of some of the things my bosses question of me. But I do try, it's just this shit sucks.