Dele

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At our best he had many outstanding moments for us. Look at that goal he scored away at Stamford bridge the touch bringing it down from that height was sublime and then has the composure to finish it off. Also something similar at the Emirates in the league cup when he tapped it over the top of their keeper. There is a very very good player there. That's why I don't really have sympathy because I know what he can do. He's just choosing to be lazy and pick off the field interests over football. If he wants to do that that's fine but I'd rather he fucked up his career somewhere else and we can use his money on hungry players commited to the club giving 100%

I think pointing to individuals instances can be a little dangerous though.

Dele is seeming to struggle to fit into the team where he doesn't have Dembele, Eriksen, Kane drawing defenders away from him so he has obvious open areas to move to. Watch him play and see how often he is in a bad position and then doesn't seem to know where to go to get into good position. The problem with Dele is that he doesn't have the basic skills to fit into a team structure. He can make some nice touches to bring a ball down but how often does he then turn and hit the open player with the correct pass? How often do you see him moving into open space to be available for his teammates when they are under pressure? How often does he read the play so he can intercept a pass?

Dele looks great when given space and has little to think about other than going straight to goal. He has some nifty ball skills that work when under little pressure. I am not sure he has enough understanding of the game, positioning especially to work well when he is under pressure or is forced to make decisions.

I think laziness plays into, although I think it is more frustration that things aren't easy more than not wanting to do hard work, but I have real questions about how good he can be even if he puts in the necessary work because he needs to work on boring things like positioning, understanding how to fit in the team structure and play away from the ball.
 
We have been forced to rotate our defense through injuries, poor play and game congestion. I think it would be ideal to have a set defensive backline, especially at CB but unfortunately outside of Toby we don't have a pair that has played well enough that they should be first choice option.

Davies has played enough times at CB that it really isn't playing him out of position. It is very possible for players to be comfortable at more than one position and it is hardly asking Son to go back to CB. So having him at CB is not playing him out of position. He is comfortable playing there and more than good enough to do so, especially at the Europa League level. His error had nothing to do with him playing in the CB position, in fact in most cases in that spot you would prefer to have a FB with the ball as they are more likely to be used to playing the ball in those types of situations.
OK we disagree. Playing a LB/LWB at CB is playing him out of position. The skills of a CB are somewhat different to a LB. As to whether Davies is good enough to do so...

By the way, I wouldn't want my centre backs try to do anything fancy with the ball. I don't want them showing off their full back skills 30m from goal with only Lloris behind them.
 
Maybe you should rewatch the Brighton game from last season then if you've never seen any players play as poorly as alli and bale did yesterday

Watched the game didn't see Son or Kane play close to as poorly or with as little effort as Alli or Bale yesterday.
 
OK we disagree. Playing a LB/LWB at CB is playing him out of position. The skills of a CB are somewhat different to a LB. As to whether Davies is good enough to do so...

By the way, I wouldn't want my centre backs try to do anything fancy with the ball. I don't want them showing off their full back skills 30m from goal with only Lloris behind them.

But he isn't just a LB, and certainly isn't a LWB he is more of a CB than a LWB.

He has played CB multiple times in his career, he is comfortable playing there. I am not sure why that is so hard for you to grasp. They aren't throwing him in there because they have nobody else they are playing him there because he is a capable CB, has played CB and has spent time developing there.

He didn't try something fancy, he held the ball too long. That had nothing to do with him being played at CB though, it was just an individual mistake that he could have made at LB, RB, CM, AM. The point is that he played at CB and was fine, he wasn't out of position because he was unfamiliar with the role, he wasn't getting bullied off the ball because he wasn't used to dealing with forwards, he didn't miss headers because he is usually up the field. He played CB and had zero issues with the position because it is a role he has played, a role that suits his game and a position that he is more than qualified to play.

I just don't get this narrow thinking that players can only play one position and that's it. It makes no sense and doesn't fit with anything that we have seen from Davies himself or countless other players over the years.
 
He has been singled out this season though hasn't he or he takes son and kane off against Everton because they were worse then alli in that first 45 mins

You give the whole team not just alli a little bit more then 45 mins to get their act together before you make ridiculous wholesale changes that didn't do any better

100%.

We were not brilliant but neither were we being scythed apart.

What Mourinho did and does at times by changing the personnel so radically is say, his words and tactical changes can't work.

Too hasty yesterday in my opinion and anyone singling out Alli is just being lazy.
 
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I think pointing to individuals instances can be a little dangerous though.

Dele is seeming to struggle to fit into the team where he doesn't have Dembele, Eriksen, Kane drawing defenders away from him so he has obvious open areas to move to. Watch him play and see how often he is in a bad position and then doesn't seem to know where to go to get into good position. The problem with Dele is that he doesn't have the basic skills to fit into a team structure. He can make some nice touches to bring a ball down but how often does he then turn and hit the open player with the correct pass? How often do you see him moving into open space to be available for his teammates when they are under pressure? How often does he read the play so he can intercept a pass?

Dele looks great when given space and has little to think about other than going straight to goal. He has some nifty ball skills that work when under little pressure. I am not sure he has enough understanding of the game, positioning especially to work well when he is under pressure or is forced to make decisions.

I think laziness plays into, although I think it is more frustration that things aren't easy more than not wanting to do hard work, but I have real questions about how good he can be even if he puts in the necessary work because he needs to work on boring things like positioning, understanding how to fit in the team structure and play away from the ball.
If you watch the highlights of the games I mentioned you can see what sort of player is there. Hungry battling pressing playing balls through great touch great movement quality finishing. It's been so long that we've forgotten it's there but I think it is there and that's the frustrating thing for me.
 
If you really are trying to say that in that game Kane and Son were worse than Alli and Bale were yesterday, I am not sure what to say. It isn't even debatable, Alli and Bale were much worse.
The performances from everyone in that game were definitely in the top 5 of the worst performances I've ever seen from a spurs team and I've been going since 87
 
If you watch the highlights of the games I mentioned you can see what sort of player is there. Hungry battling pressing playing balls through great touch great movement quality finishing. It's been so long that we've forgotten it's there but I think it is there and that's the frustrating thing for me.

I certainly think he can be better for sure, pressing for example is something that he could get back to doing. But it is hard to know if that is his choice or tactics from Jose.

My point is that Dele is struggling now in large part because he doesn't have the skills or understanding of how to play with in the team structure or what to do without the ball. Those are major issues that he needs to fix or he won't be effective at all. I don't think he ever had great movement, his off the ball play has always been poor and his passing has never been great either.
 
I just don't get this narrow thinking that players can only play one position and that's it.
It's not narrow thinking. You learn how to play a position from your early teens so that it becomes instinctive. Then you're asking to play somewhere else?

There are many players who have successfully made the transition from one position to another, however the vast majority play in the same position throughout their career.

This isn't FIFA.
 
The performances from everyone in that game were definitely in the top 5 of the worst performances I've ever seen from a spurs team and I've been going since 87

I think it was a terrible performance for sure, I am not saying otherwise.

I am just pointing out that Kane and Son were not as poor as Alli and Bale were yesterday. They didn't just stand around watching and they didn't show zero desire to get into the game.

And that was against a much better side, in a mid-season game when things were spiralling, not in a Europa League match, against a weak side when you have every motivation to try and show that you should be a key member of the squad.
 
I certainly think he can be better for sure, pressing for example is something that he could get back to doing. But it is hard to know if that is his choice or tactics from Jose.

My point is that Dele is struggling now in large part because he doesn't have the skills or understanding of how to play with in the team structure or what to do without the ball. Those are major issues that he needs to fix or he won't be effective at all. I don't think he ever had great movement, his off the ball play has always been poor and his passing has never been great either.
I think we disagree on the level of ability he possesses but I think we both agree on the fact that he has been underperforming for some time now and you have to come to a point where you say ok enough is enough.
 
It's not narrow thinking. You learn how to play a position from your early teens so that it becomes instinctive. Then you're asking to play somewhere else?

There are many players who have successfully made the transition from one position to another, however the vast majority play in the same position throughout their career.

This isn't FIFA.

But he has learned to play two positions, with similar skill sets, while growing up and has played both positions while growing up as well. It really isn't that complicated. There are plenty of players that play FB and CB or CB and DM all the time. Jan Vertoghen for example did both for us and Belgium often and was fine at both positions.

Fernandinho and Fabinho have done it for City and Liverpool this year and last year and those teams seem to be doing ok.

Davies has played both CB and FB throughout his career, I don't see why you think that is such a terrible thing. That is part of what makes him an appealing player to some, his ability to play both positions.

Its is probably why you are the only one making an issue out of him playing there as everyone else realizes it is a totally normal thing.
 
I think we disagree on the level of ability he possesses but I think we both agree on the fact that he has been underperforming for some time now and you have to come to a point where you say ok enough is enough.

I think enough is enough was last season, I would have done everything in my power to sell him in the summer.

I am not sure how much he is underperforming versus him just not being at the level that many think he is. I don't think him moving on is going to result in an uptick in his performances. I am not sure that he can or is willing to make the changes in his game to improve.
 
Really?

United won't buy him.

City could have a midfield of Winks and Dele. Yep then we would win the league !
You are quoting me from two games into the season, before he served up his recent shit shows.

Even saying that, we all know, but maybe don’t want to admit, that’s there’s still a player in there. I’d still fully expect him to remain at a high level if we sell him and also expect Dr Spursy to give him an easy welcome when he does come back.
 
But he has learned to play two positions, with similar skill sets, while growing up and has played both positions while growing up as well. It really isn't that complicated. There are plenty of players that play FB and CB or CB and DM all the time. Jan Vertoghen for example did both for us and Belgium often and was fine at both positions.

Fernandinho and Fabinho have done it for City and Liverpool this year and last year and those teams seem to be doing ok.

Davies has played both CB and FB throughout his career, I don't see why you think that is such a terrible thing. That is part of what makes him an appealing player to some, his ability to play both positions.

Its is probably why you are the only one making an issue out of him playing there as everyone else realizes it is a totally normal thing.
If you know that Davies has played at both CB and LB/LWB 'throughout his career', then I bow to your greater knowledge. I've always known him as a LB/LWB.

You quote a couple of instances where utility players can cover a number of positions. Of course they exist, but the majority stick to the positions they've been brought up to play.

"It really isn't that complicated"... I'm sorry, it really is.

As I said, it isn't FIFA.
 
You are quoting me from two games into the season, before he served up his recent shit shows.

Even saying that, we all know, but maybe don’t want to admit, that’s there’s still a player in there. I’d still fully expect him to remain at a high level if we sell him and also expect Dr Spursy to give him an easy welcome when he does come back.
He doesn't WANT to play for us anymore. Since loss to Iceland he seems to think that he can saunter about and have all the trappings of stardom.
What he seems to gave forgotten is that he plays football for a living.
Jose keeps hoping that there is a player in there but at the moment there is a hollow shell with no fight. At least he used to kick someone, now not even that !
Sell and buy others, we are not a resting home for loungers.
 
He doesn't WANT to play for us anymore. Since loss to Iceland he seems to think that he can saunter about and have all the trappings of stardom.
What he seems to gave forgotten is that he plays football for a living.
Jose keeps hoping that there is a player in there but at the moment there is a hollow shell with no fight. At least he used to kick someone, now not even that !
Sell and buy others, we are not a resting home for loungers.
I’m not sure your first line is correct, but let’s assume it is. Who do we replace him with that’s a better squad player, as experienced and also HG? And remember, we’ve to replace Winks too as he’s also “fucking shit”.
 
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