So produce some evidence then
No use you or anyone else saying “pretty sure I saw that’s what it said”
No use at all
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No use you or anyone else saying “pretty sure I saw that’s what it said”
No use at all
In Priti Patel v Tyrone Mings there’s only one winner
The home secretary, like some Tories, has got herself on the wrong side of a dispute with England’s footballers
Daniel Finkelstein
Tuesday July 13 2021, 5.00pm, The Times
Just as the European football championship got under way I fell into a discussion over dinner with a human rights lawyer who specialised in conflict resolution. And very impressive she was too.
After we had tried solving the Middle East problem, we turned to the football and with some puzzlement she asked why teams drawing at full time played on into extra time and penalties. Why not just share the trophy, she asked? Why did there need to be a winner?
I was highly amused by this reinvention of the sport as a branch of conflict studies, but by the end of the tournament I’d become used to people using the matches to support whatever theory or specialism they came in with. We have not just been watching an international festival of football but also taking part in a national festival of confirmation bias.
People who think almost anybody would be a better prime minister than Boris Johnson became more certain with every win that Gareth Southgate would be a good choice. People who think a collegiate management style is essential for business success found confirmation in England’s defeat of Germany. Those who think England isn’t intrinsically racist felt this to be shown by our collective enthusiasm for the winning Three Lions. Those who think it is pointed to the response to defeat.
There was a little bit for everyone. Something that everybody could use to show they’ve been right all along. And you know what? That’s certainly the case with me.
The clash between the England defender Tyrone Mings and Priti Patel supports everything that people like me have been warning the Conservative Party of for some time. You can enter into a culture war if you like, but don’t be too confident you will win it.
At the beginning of the tournament the home secretary was asked whether some England fans were right to boo the team for taking the knee before the game. Now, politicians are asked all sorts of tricky questions by clever journalists but really this wasn’t one of them.
Do you think it a good idea for people to jeer the racially diverse national side as they stand together against racism during a major international tournament? It is not the sort of puzzler you require years of media training to handle. I’m never in favour of jeering anyone, is, I think, a pretty safe answer for a home secretary. Instead, Patel said: “That’s a choice for them quite frankly.”
Simple prudence might have made her pause, if the rightness of the cause did not. It was really quite likely that the England team would make it a fair distance in a tournament being played largely at home. As it progressed, the team would become heroes and she would then wish to pose in an England top as the It’s Coming Home Secretary. Having basically sided with the booers against the booed, she might find the transition difficult. It is extraordinary that this thought did not occur to her.
For so it has come to pass. On Monday Mings, who plays for Aston Villa, tweeted: “You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ and then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against happens.”
Now, the home secretary was, of course, right to call taking the knee “gesture politics”. Of course it is. Lots of things are gesture politics. Appearing on television in front of a flag, for example. Or clapping the NHS. Or the honours system. The question is what the gesture is meant to represent.
Some of my friends on the right seem to have got it into their heads that taking the knee is an endorsement of the programme of a small group of Black Lives Matter activists. That taking the knee is a call for the abolition of capitalism and the advancement of the theories of Marx.
How likely is it, do you think, that Harry Kane and Raheem Sterling are hoping to incite spectators to overthrow capitalism just before kick-off? Or that the idea came to the England players after debating the policy ideas on a BLM website? And if you think it plausible that the gesture originates in a dressing room debate about Das Kapital, you could always try asking the England team and listening to the answer. For the players have been perfectly clear why they are taking the knee. It is as a protest against the racism they encounter.
Let me be personal for a moment. I believe in the capitalist system. I am a resolute opponent of Marxist ideas. In the name of these ideas my grandfather was sent to the Gulag and my father nearly died of starvation in Soviet exile. You can take it from me that I wouldn’t support any gesture that glorified communism. My family owes so much to this country and I would never endorse showing it or its history disrespect.
Yet at the same time, as a Jew I have experienced racial abuse. What you crave when it happens is the solidarity of your fellow countrymen for the gestures and statements of resistance that you make. You don’t wish that solidarity to be held back for some highfalutin, arcane political reason. It breaks my heart to think that any ally of mine would withhold support from young men being jeered because of their race.
For let’s be clear, that is what the jeering was about. The jeering was racial abuse wearing the clothes of political argument. The jeerers hadn’t read the BLM website or studied Das Kapital any more than the players had. In the aftermath of Sunday’s defeat we learned who was doing the booing, and the ugly culture of hatred and violence it is part of. Being on the side of that isn’t any sort of position for a Conservative.
The moral argument seems to me quite clear, but for those still not convinced, let me also make the political case. Failing to support the stand of the England team before they became national heroes has become a predictable political embarrassment. In the contest between the home secretary and Tyrone Mings there will only be one winner and it won’t be the politician.
There will be some vociferous support for refusing to take the knee but these people are not the majority and they aren’t the future. This country is becoming more urban, more diverse and more liberal. Already polls show there are more people for taking the knee than are against it and that will only become more marked.
The journey from political error to predictable consequence was a quick one this time for Priti Patel. The larger mistake of siding against the coming values of a younger generation may take longer to unfold, but the outcome is just as sure
TLDR
It’s not irrelevant Baz because if you believe the police you wouldn’t be arguing . If you do believe the police and are arguing that is strange . So you either don’t believe them or taking a strange stance on this one
What has this got to do with the thread
‘Racism in Football’???
It is irrelevant Ed because I’ve asked on several people occasions from different posters for evidence of racism throughout the day
None has been forthcoming
One poster said that he thought he saw something!!!!!
I said egalitarian not progressive, which it was if you were Muslim. Being a janissary was such a good deal that eventually corruption took over and people bought their way in.
And it's not that I want to review only the bad, but that really up to now we have only learnt the good. And an awful lot of people don't want to know the bad, or pretend it never happened, or point at another country and say 'but look at them.'
I would strongly recommend anyone to read 'Empireland' by Sathnam Sanghera if you want to learn more in an insightful and balanced way.
What evidence??
The police once said that the Birmingham four were guilty
They weren’t so let’s see the evidence and we can decide for ourselves
Where is it?
Thats not a good thing. Considering the uk has a population of 66 million and world population is around 7.6 billion (according to google). That means uk has 0.86% of people in the world and yet somehow contribution to 30% of abuse. So 30/0.86 = thats 34 times as abusive as any other country.
It was in reply to something
Datzlo
posted about there not being a gender pay gap. Oh look, there is one. Sorry if confusing.
I’m not asking you to gather evidence
I’m asking for evidence to be provided to support your accusations and agenda
There isn’t any
SoIt was in reply to something
Start a thread about the gender pay gap and then we won’t be confused
Thia is a thread about racism in football or have I got that wrong?
Just read this about it
Empireland by Sathnam Sanghera and Slave Empire by Padraic X Scanlan – review
Wilful amnesia ... two fascinating journeys through Britain’s imperial past and present suggest attitudes must change
www.theguardian.com
That sounds far from well balanced to me.
Someone is getting so twisted and triggered that they're mixing up their Birminghams and their Guildfords (6s & 4s).
No we’re arguing whether there was any racist abuse on Rashford’s mural
No evidence that there was any
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