Levy / ENIC

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I suggest a cup final just last season would say otherwise. Another in 2019. League challenge in 2017 etc.

We're not going for silver every single year like some but to say we've not challenged is a bit of a lie.
I think the rephrasing of the post is yes we got to a cup final and along with the league and CL it was more a matter of we didn't compete for whatever reason.
 
I suggest a cup final just last season would say otherwise. Another in 2019. League challenge in 2017 etc.

We're not going for silver every single year like some but to say we've not challenged is a bit of a lie.

A Cup run to the final of the Carabao Cup based 100% on draw does not suggest that at all.

And usually when titles is used it is in reference to the PL title, I haven't seen people using title for Cups/trophies before.

The fact that you have to use very few, marginal examples shows that we have not been competing for titles or Cups in the recent past at all.
 
The biggest and clearest example of our refusal to push for silverware per se is that despite being among the biggest clubs in the competition many times, we haven’t been past the quarterfinals of the UEFA Cup/Europa League in the modern era.

Last year under Mourinho was the first time in my time supporting Spurs that we were really taking non-CL European football seriously.
 
A Cup run to the final of the Carabao Cup based 100% on draw does not suggest that at all.

And usually when titles is used it is in reference to the PL title, I haven't seen people using title for Cups/trophies before.

The fact that you have to use very few, marginal examples shows that we have not been competing for titles or Cups in the recent past at all.
We've been in three finals over the last 7 years - it isn't great but is absolute fact that we've been pretty close to honours. Add to that the various SF appearances and the one genuine title fight and it is undeniable we've been fairly competitive, especially given we are not the behemoth that some seem to think that we are.

It of course stings that we've not been able to turn anything into a trophy since 2008 but it does not take away from absolute facts that we've been, at least competitive in going for honours.

Only the clubs who have any claim to be bigger than we are can say the same over the same period - ask Newcastle fans what a final or a title chase is and they'll need to head back well over 20 years to have been in one and some way longer since they have won anything. Everton have won nothing in 27 years, Villa I think possibly longer, Leeds now 30 years since a success and these are all clubs that were on our level when ENIC took over. Not one of them have been or are currently near us, in reality.
 
We've been in three finals over the last 7 years - it isn't great but is absolute fact that we've been pretty close to honours. Add to that the various SF appearances and the one genuine title fight and it is undeniable we've been fairly competitive, especially given we are not the behemoth that some seem to think that we are.

It of course stings that we've not been able to turn anything into a trophy since 2008 but it does not take away from absolute facts that we've been, at least competitive in going for honours.

Only the clubs who have any claim to be bigger than we are can say the same over the same period - ask Newcastle fans what a final or a title chase is and they'll need to head back well over 20 years to have been in one and some way longer since they have won anything. Everton have won nothing in 27 years, Villa I think possibly longer, Leeds now 30 years since a success and these are all clubs that were on our level when ENIC took over. Not one of them have been or are currently near us, in reality.
We have spent commensurate with a plucky top 4 challenger, and shuffled through managers holding them accountable for that level of success.

Then Poch changed everything, dramatically improved the team despite negative net spend, pushed us to the precipice of major honors, and then Levy fucking blew it and here we are right back where we were under Martin Jol.

The only difference of course being that our revenue now makes us one of the richest clubs on earth.
 
We've been in three finals over the last 7 years - it isn't great but is absolute fact that we've been pretty close to honours. Add to that the various SF appearances and the one genuine title fight and it is undeniable we've been fairly competitive, especially given we are not the behemoth that some seem to think that we are.

Genuine title fight is a bit of a stretch

And 3 finals over 7 years is not impressive at all especially compared to our supposed rivals and other clubs in the big 6 who have all won more titles/Cups in that time.

I will ask you this as this is something that I am seeing more from ENIC apologists, what is your expectation of Tottenham? Do you see as us being in the big 6? Do you think we should compete for top 4, FA Cups, CL titles, Europa League titles?

I ask because a lot of the excuses I see from people like you seem to show a real lack of ambition, and I don't mean that as an insult but you might have a different view on where Spurs should be.

For me when you say 3 finals over 7 years to me that shows how poor we have been but you seem to think it shows well on the ownership. You say we have been fairly competitive, I would say we have not been very competitive at all especially outside of when Poch was here.

I do think that some of the disagreements could be resolved if people just realize that they have different expectations for the club. I don't think it will mean we agree but easier to understand views of people if they don't think that we should be competitive with the other top teams of the PL and Europe.

If we are in the Villa, Everton, Wolves, Leicester 2nd/3rd tier of PL football then our results are decent. I do not see us in that group but it makes some of your views make a lot more sense if you do.



 
We have spent commensurate with a plucky top 4 challenger, and shuffled through managers holding them accountable for that level of success.

Then Poch changed everything, dramatically improved the team despite negative net spend, pushed us to the precipice of major honors, and then Levy fucking blew it and here we are right back where we were under Martin Jol.

The only difference of course being that our revenue now makes us one of the richest clubs on earth.
Hard to disagree and as already said they are certainly not blameless. I'm sure there are a myriad of factors as to why it hasn't quite happened for us and one of those is ENIC being tight at a time when it may have made a difference to just spend a few quid. We'll never know for sure.

I maintain their biggest fuck ups were firstly, sacking Poch, and secondly, bringing Mourinho in to replace him.

They've bought some time appointing Conte. Now they need to buy to back the man.
 
Genuine title fight is a bit of a stretch

And 3 finals over 7 years is not impressive at all especially compared to our supposed rivals and other clubs in the big 6 who have all won more titles/Cups in that time.

I will ask you this as this is something that I am seeing more from ENIC apologists, what is your expectation of Tottenham? Do you see as us being in the big 6? Do you think we should compete for top 4, FA Cups, CL titles, Europa League titles?

I ask because a lot of the excuses I see from people like you seem to show a real lack of ambition, and I don't mean that as an insult but you might have a different view on where Spurs should be.

For me when you say 3 finals over 7 years to me that shows how poor we have been but you seem to think it shows well on the ownership. You say we have been fairly competitive, I would say we have not been very competitive at all especially outside of when Poch was here.

I do think that some of the disagreements could be resolved if people just realize that they have different expectations for the club. I don't think it will mean we agree but easier to understand views of people if they don't think that we should be competitive with the other top teams of the PL and Europe.

If we are in the Villa, Everton, Wolves, Leicester 2nd/3rd tier of PL football then our results are decent. I do not see us in that group but it makes some of your views make a lot more sense if you do.
We're not in the truly elite group - although I think in time we could be. Years of financial mismanagement before ENIC and our beautiful but not fit for purpose home held us back considerably. Unless you have a Russian backer or some such we were where we 'deserved' to be.

We're now in place that we're a level behind City, Liverpool and Chelsea for sure. Probably United as well.

We're probably in a sub elite group with Woolwich. Then there's the next batch.

My genuine expectations? - Fairly regular silverware, and decent league output. Half decent football that doesn't make your eyes bleed.
 
We're not in the truly elite group - although I think in time we could be. Years of financial mismanagement before ENIC and our beautiful but not fit for purpose home held us back considerably. Unless you have a Russian backer or some such we were where we 'deserved' to be.

You can't blame the group before ENIC for our problems now. That is pure crap. Liverpool doesn't have a Russian or Oil country owner they have won titles and Cups. They have been much more competitive than us. They aren't limited by the same crap in the transfer window by their owners.

The scum aren't owned by a Russian or oil nation and they have won, they have backed their managers.

Even Leicester who I don't think are a model club but still at least run their club properly so they can get success unlike ENIC.

The Russian/Oil nations arguments would be much more valid if it was only them we were struggling to beat but that is clearly not the case. It wasn't Abramovich or Abu Dhabi that had us buy zero players for 500+ days or buy Rodon over Skrianiar or not pay the image rights for Dybala or make a fair offer for Grealish etc.

We're now in place that we're a level behind City, Liverpool and Chelsea for sure. Probably United as well.

We're probably in a sub elite group with Woolwich. Then there's the next batch.

My genuine expectations? - Fairly regular silverware, and decent league output. Half decent football that doesn't make your eyes bleed.

I think that we certainly should be in a similar group to LIverpool, yes they have been a historically bigger club but they are owned by a similar investment group that doesn't pour in ridiculous amounts of money into it. They have blown past us and made the type of moves that most would say Levy doesn't let us do with the way he runs the club.

I would agree with that last point you make and would say I have not got that under ENIC at all.
 
1 Cup in 21 years is shit but if you look at things in context how much of that can you blame ENIC for?

It can't be ENIC's fault that we've reached 21 semi finals since 1991 and only won one measly cup in that time. If you're getting to cup finals and semi finals then that suggests that it isn't recruitment or investment issue or the fact that we don't have good enough players.

How many of those semi's and final's have we been favourites to win? For example I can think of in 2016 and 2017 we reached the semi final of the FA Cup a few years years ago and had beaten those teams (Chelsea/Utd) earlier in the season. Can you really blame ENIC's that Poch decided to play Son at LWB against Chelsea despite having Davies on the bench, can you blame them we lost to a shite Portsmouth team that finished bottom of the league that season in the FA Cup in 2009...Can you blame them for Poch bringing in an unfit Kane over Lucas in the CL final?

It's more a mentality issue and in those particular cases a management issue as well.

The only time ENIC/Levy has had a direct influence over a cup was when he sacked Jose before the cup final something that was swetp under the carpet because it was the same day as the ESL debacle and since our fanbase didn't like Jose people were genrally happy with the decision but IMO it's arguably the single worst decision he's ever made at this club and something I'll never be able to forgive him for.
 
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You can't blame the group before ENIC for our problems now. That is pure crap. Liverpool doesn't have a Russian or Oil country owner they have won titles and Cups. They have been much more competitive than us. They aren't limited by the same crap in the transfer window by their owners.

The scum aren't owned by a Russian or oil nation and they have won, they have backed their managers.

Even Leicester who I don't think are a model club but still at least run their club properly so they can get success unlike ENIC.

The Russian/Oil nations arguments would be much more valid if it was only them we were struggling to beat but that is clearly not the case. It wasn't Abramovich or Abu Dhabi that had us buy zero players for 500+ days or buy Rodon over Skrianiar or not pay the image rights for Dybala or make a fair offer for Grealish etc.



I think that we certainly should be in a similar group to LIverpool, yes they have been a historically bigger club but they are owned by a similar investment group that doesn't pour in ridiculous amounts of money into it. They have blown past us and made the type of moves that most would say Levy doesn't let us do with the way he runs the club.

I would agree with that last point you make and would say I have not got that under ENIC at all.
'They have blown past us'.

Perhaps true, but after a period of abject failure, by their own standards. Using Liverpool isn't really a good idea. They were us not that long ago, near enough.
 
1 Cup in 21 years is shit but if you look at things in context how much of that can you blame ENIC for?

Most if not all.

It can't be ENIC's fault that we've reached 21 semi finals since 1991 and only won one measly cup in that time. If you're getting to cup finals and semi finals then that suggests that it isn't recruitment or investment issue or the fact that we don't have good enough players. How many of those semi's and final's have we been favourites to win?

Yes it 100% is on them that we make it to those SF's and Finals and don't have the team to compete. We are not the favorites because Levy does not invest in the team, does not back the managers.

For example I can think of in 2016 and 2017 we reached the semi final two years ago and had beaten those teams (Chelsea/Utd) earlier in the season. Can you really blame ENIC's that Poch decided to play Son at LWB against Chelsea despite having Davies on the bench, can you blame them we lost to a shite Portsmouth team that finished bottom of the league that season in the FA Cup in 2009...Can you blame them for Poch bringing in an unfit Kane over Lucas in the CL final?

Yes you can blame them for the Chelsea game because the fact that the option was play Son out of position or play dog shit Davies is the problem.

Having dogshit Lucas as the back-up for Kane is their fault.

It's more a mentality issue and in those particular cases a management issue as well.

No it isn't mentality or management it is a lack of quality player issue.

We didn't lose to Chelsea in the SF because of Conte's management we lost because our squad was miles behind them. Because we had to play multiple players that weren't close to good enough in our starting 11. With Son out we had zero quality attacking depth to replace him.

That is all on Levy.

The only time ENIC/Levy has had a direct influence over a cup was when he sacked Jose before the cup final something that was swetp under the carpet because it was the same day as the ESL debacle and since our fanbase didn't like Jose people were genrally happy with the decision but IMO it's arguably the single worst decision he's ever made at this club and something I'll never be able to forgive him for.

Levy's lack of investment in the club has had a direct result in every single cup failure we have had.
 
I usually can't be bothered to respond to rubbish like this in detail but I'll make an exception this time

"Don't like the owners or an aspect of how a club is run ? go and support Man city , Chelsea Etc " is one of the most juvenile and intellectually barren arguments you can make and it makes me laugh whenever I see it .

I'll always love this football club and the owners are not the football club , merely the custodians at this point in time. I am perfectly entitled to voice my displeasure If I feel they are not doing right by the fans and by the club.

So I will not be fucking off to support Chelsea , sorry.

I also love the idea that because we were a mess 25 years ago it makes it fine that we've been a walking disaster zone for the last few years , countless examples of money pissed up against a wall (When we've actually been bothered to spend) , dreadful managerial decisions and more examples of managers failing to be backed than I've had hot dinners.

Ah good ol Infrastructure ! Normal fans do not give a shit about infrastructure , they care about one thing and one thing only, performances on the pitch. We charge some of the highest ticket prices in world football , being able to stare at a wonderful stadium does not compensate for watching a failed , patched up and mismanaged team on the pitch , it's not difficult to understand surely.

I won't say Enic haven't done some good in their time , that wouldn't be true. But it's clear where their priorities lie and it ain't on the green stuff.

As a fan that's all I really care about , sod golf courses , property portfolios and NFL.

No matter how much some people want to do us down and keep peddling the "Poor plucky little tottenham" agenda , we are a big club , a proud club , a club that has always prided itself on competing for and winning silverware

One league cup in 21 years is quite frankly pitiful.

You were mentioning how much of a mess we were in the 90s , newsflash we won two trophies in that 1 decade , we've one a single trophy in 2 and bit under this lot

But hey , world class facilities .
So eloquently put and straight from the heart. Well said sir!
 
'They have blown past us'.

Perhaps true, but after a period of abject failure, by their own standards. Using Liverpool isn't really a good idea. They were us not that long ago, near enough.

Using Liverpool as an example works because as you say they were struggling but instead of being stubborn like Levy they made changes and moves that the club needed to improve. The exact kind of moves that Levy refuses to make.

They brought Klopp in let him have a say in the football direction of the club and then spent big to back him. No chance Levy spends like they did on Alisson and VVD. They bought Jota even having a solid front 3 because they understood they need to strengthen areas before they are a problem not 4 years after the problem begins.
 
Genuine title fight is a bit of a stretch

And 3 finals over 7 years is not impressive at all especially compared to our supposed rivals and other clubs in the big 6 who have all won more titles/Cups in that time.

I will ask you this as this is something that I am seeing more from ENIC apologists, what is your expectation of Tottenham? Do you see as us being in the big 6? Do you think we should compete for top 4, FA Cups, CL titles, Europa League titles?

I ask because a lot of the excuses I see from people like you seem to show a real lack of ambition, and I don't mean that as an insult but you might have a different view on where Spurs should be.

For me when you say 3 finals over 7 years to me that shows how poor we have been but you seem to think it shows well on the ownership. You say we have been fairly competitive, I would say we have not been very competitive at all especially outside of when Poch was here.

I do think that some of the disagreements could be resolved if people just realize that they have different expectations for the club. I don't think it will mean we agree but easier to understand views of people if they don't think that we should be competitive with the other top teams of the PL and Europe.

If we are in the Villa, Everton, Wolves, Leicester 2nd/3rd tier of PL football then our results are decent. I do not see us in that group but it makes some of your views make a lot more sense if you do.
This is very interesting, and perhaps is the bottom line of explaining not just the difference between views on here, but also the incredulity of each end of the spectrum that the other can possibly think the way they do.

I know it's not me you've asked the question to, but I'll answer if that's ok. Just my opinion obviously, others have every right to hold a different one.

For me personally, we currently naturally sit in a small tier between the long-term (say 10-year) top tier (Man City, Chelsea, Man United, Liverpool got in there in recent years), and what I'd consider the third tier (Villa, Leicester, Everton, West, Wolves have got in there in recent years). For me we sit in a 2nd tier with just Woolwich joining us there (they used to be top tier but have fallen, replaced by City 10 years ago).

Obvious question will be why do I see us in 2nd rather than top tier? Well, because for 3 of those 4 clubs - City, Chelsea, United - they are prepared to throw huge amounts of money at achieving success. I know people argue that our owners should put more money in, but they own the club and it is their decision whether or not to do that, so there is no point in me saying 'Lewis should inject £500m to help us compete', for me that's his business not mine. (I know many will disagree with that, as is their prerogative. But in life I'm never one to try and spend other people's money). Liverpool are then in that top tier because in the last 5 years they have done similar to what we were doing a few years before, but they have done it better, bought the right players at the right time (mixture of wisdom and luck, like with any purchases), won trophies, and to some degree it seems success breeds success, players want to come, your scouts are clearly selecting well etc. For me we could well have got there, but we failed to back Poch when he needed it, then we to some extent got unlucky by paying big money for duds like N'Dombele and Lo Celso, when on paper they looked like they would significantly improve us. Also we did get into a couple of cup finals that on another day we could have won (Liverpool were nothing special that night, and although Man City battered us earlier this year, we've beaten them enough times in recent years to know that we can do it on the right day, etc).

So what is my expectation? Well, given that we've just built a new stadium, given that covid has impacted everyone, and given that Lewis doesn't want to bankroll big spending, personally for the next (say) 3 seasons I'd be delighted if we got at least 4th place every year, possibly challenging for the title one of those years (just being involved though, not winning it I very much doubt). Of course if we could pick up a cup in those 3 years that would be great, we're obviously long overdue, though as I said for me we've been incredibly unfortunate in that regard in the last 10 or so years. After 3 years, if the new stadium really cements us as bigger than we are now, then maybe I'd want more - though I'm always conscious that each year only one team can finish top of the EPL, we can't all win it...

Obviously 'success' is a relative term and different for everyone, but if you look at the other 90ish clubs in the English leagues, how many of them consider it failure if their club doesn't win either a cup or their division every few years? Most clubs win nothing ever! Now I know we're not 'most clubs', we're much bigger than that, but for the reasons I've mentioned above, for me we're only in the '2nd tier', and so should not expect regular titles or trophies.

There you go, that's my take, roughly at least (I've not planned it, I've written it as it's come out, so some bits may be not be quite right, but near enough). By the way, I don't say any of the above to wind anyone up etc, it's just how I personally feel, and I absolutely respect if others feel differently.

On the other side of the coin, I do perhaps have a question for the naysayers - if we'd won the CL final that night, the Carabao earlier this year, and one FA Cup in the last (say) 10 years, would you all be happy, or happier, with ENIC, Levy etc, or is it not about success on the pitch?
 
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I usually can't be bothered to respond to rubbish like this in detail but I'll make an exception this time

"Don't like the owners or an aspect of how a club is run ? go and support Man city , Chelsea Etc " is one of the most juvenile and intellectually barren arguments you can make and it makes me laugh whenever I see it .

I'll always love this football club and the owners are not the football club , merely the custodians at this point in time. I am perfectly entitled to voice my displeasure If I feel they are not doing right by the fans and by the club.

So I will not be fucking off to support Chelsea , sorry.

I also love the idea that because we were a mess 25 years ago it makes it fine that we've been a walking disaster zone for the last few years , countless examples of money pissed up against a wall (When we've actually been bothered to spend) , dreadful managerial decisions and more examples of managers failing to be backed than I've had hot dinners.

Ah good ol Infrastructure ! Normal fans do not give a shit about infrastructure , they care about one thing and one thing only, performances on the pitch. We charge some of the highest ticket prices in world football , being able to stare at a wonderful stadium does not compensate for watching a failed , patched up and mismanaged team on the pitch , it's not difficult to understand surely.

I won't say Enic haven't done some good in their time , that wouldn't be true. But it's clear where their priorities lie and it ain't on the green stuff.

As a fan that's all I really care about , sod golf courses , property portfolios and NFL.

No matter how much some people want to do us down and keep peddling the "Poor plucky little tottenham" agenda , we are a big club , a proud club , a club that has always prided itself on competing for and winning silverware

One league cup in 21 years is quite frankly pitiful.

You were mentioning how much of a mess we were in the 90s , newsflash we won two trophies in that 1 decade , we've one a single trophy in 2 and bit under this lot

But hey , world class facilities .

"a walking disaster zone for the last few years"

The last decade has been the most successful average league position wise in our history - we reached our first ever European Cup / CL in our history ... but sure no trophies.

When you decide that this is a "walking disaster zone" you're just behaving like a City/Chelsea/Utd entitled fan ... we're better than that.

Sure have a view - but don't slag the club you claim to support by denigrating the massive improvement off the field and, believe it or not, the lesser improvement on the field.

Sure a lot more improvement needed but 'walking disaster' 95% of clubs can only dream about doing what we have, get over yourself.
 
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