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Manager Ange Postecoglou

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Was sacking Ange a good idea?

  • Yes, I think it was a good idea.

    Votes: 73 64.6%
  • No, I think it was a bad idea.

    Votes: 40 35.4%

  • Total voters
    113
Denial of what? The club is a total shitshow and fans spent years blaming all the shortcomings on Levy. They spent the last year blaming everything from injuries to results on Ange. And where are we? Worse than ever. The fans who can't admit they've been wrong the entire time are the ones in denial!
Nah, Levy is still responsible for most of it.

The only person at the club that Levy didn't personally hire is Tudor himself.

Nothing has really changed since Levy's termination. It's still the same commercial and footballing structure that he built over two decades.
 
Denial of what? The club is a total shitshow and fans spent years blaming all the shortcomings on Levy. They spent the last year blaming everything from injuries to results on Ange. And where are we? Worse than ever. The fans who can't admit they've been wrong the entire time are the ones in denial!

Ange didn't exactly prove he could manage in the Premier League, and certainly not with injuries, so why would this season have been any better?
 
Denial of what? The club is a total shitshow and fans spent years blaming all the shortcomings on Levy. They spent the last year blaming everything from injuries to results on Ange. And where are we? Worse than ever. The fans who can't admit they've been wrong the entire time are the ones in denial!
There is no intelligent or cogent argument that says anything other than we'd have still been a lower bottom feeder had he stayed.
It was him who was responsible for our 17th place last season. And HAD he been backed, he wouldn't have known what to do with good players.
The guy is a fraud in IMHO
We must agree to disagree...
 
His tenure couldn't and wouldn't have happened in other era but this one. It's incredibly zietgist, I think he is FULLY part of a wider pattern. A dangerous illogical one that's harmless in football and sports generally but which speaks to a far darker milieu.

It's enchanced by social media and the culture shift in mainstream media, and is rooted in desperation a fracturing of cultural cohesion and a polarisation that has gone beyond politics and become embedded in the perception of in and out groups.

He is the essential male charismatic populist leader. I think the love affair with with this type will end in quite the implosion.

Well put, and absolutely.

It's actually not even a surprise.

We are becoming so vacuous, so needy and the impact is easy to disniss.
 
I can honestly say that Ange wouldn't have had us anywhere near where we are now if he got his 3rd season, not at least as the players would actually put in the effort for him as opposed to Frank who they stopped believing in him earlier in the season.

Based on what though? Vibes???

did you or did you not sit through players putting in the effort for him in the league last season?

effort was not the issue - the issue was he was not a good premier league tactician
 
I now think it was the wrong decision to sack Postecoglou but that's not because I think he would have fared much better than Frank but simply because any new manager walking into the shitstorm would have faced exactly the same problems Frank did.

There is a case to be made that Postecoglou would have had going okay this season simply because our back 5 has been relatively healthy and his record with a healthy 1st choice Back 5 was always Top 5ish. But in many ways it would still have been more plastering over the cracks in our foundation - from squad depth and quality all the way to the workings at the top of the club.

As I keep saying the managers aren't the real problem. That was made clear when it didn't work out with Conte.

Nah, i dont buy it - we were terrible last season, even with our healthy back 5 -

Woolwich, City, Liverpool have all got a terrible points return this season so far - the league is insanely competitive - there is zero evidence he would have fared any better than Frank whatsoever
 
Denial of what? The club is a total shitshow and fans spent years blaming all the shortcomings on Levy. They spent the last year blaming everything from injuries to results on Ange. And where are we? Worse than ever. The fans who can't admit they've been wrong the entire time are the ones in denial!

That is simply ignoring Ange's limitations as a prem league manager - and his time at Forest is actually somewhat proof of this.

Just because all our shortcoming werent all on Levy and there are a number of other factors why we have slipped - it doesnt mean that actually Ange was good at managing in the premier league.
 
Nah, i dont buy it - we were terrible last season, even with our healthy back 5 -

Woolwich, City, Liverpool have all got a terrible points return this season so far - the league is insanely competitive - there is zero evidence he would have fared any better than Frank whatsoever

I'm sorry to quibble but this just isn't true. At least not statistically.

With his first choice Back 5 Postecoglou's results were consistent with a Top 5 result in the league.

This is further backed up by results in Europe when the Back 5 didn't play once together in the last 3 months of the league season (even though more or less available) but did play together in our last 6 games in Europe in which we were undefeated and, of course, won the actual cup.

There's no guarantee, of course, that this would have been maintained into a putative 25/26 campaign had we kept Postecoglou instead of Frank but to say "there's no evidence" is just not true. There's 2 seasons of data 🤷‍♂️

But it's a minor quibble. I agree with your broader point that we would have been pretty terrible either way. But then I don't believe our major problems are manager related.(or, at least, not entirely manager related)
 
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I'm sorry to quibble but this just isn't true. At least not statistically.

With his first choice Back 5 Postecoglou's results were consistent with a Top 5 result in the league.

This is further backed up by results in Europe when the Back 5 didn't play once together in the last 3 months of the league season (even though more or less available) but did play together in our last 6 games in Europe in which we were undefeated and, of course, won the actual cup.

There's no guarantee, of course, that this would have been maintained into a putative 25/26 campaign had we kept Postecoglou instead of Frank but to say "there's no evidence" is just not true. There's 2 seasons of data 🤷‍♂️

But it's a minor quibble. I agree with your broader point that we would have been pretty terrible either way. But then I don't believe our major problems are manager related.(or, at least, not entirely manager related)

I mean, at the start of last season, we drew with Leicester, lost to Palace, Newcastle and Brighton with his best defenders on the pitch.

A manager who couldn't set us up to beat Ipswich when missing one of his preferred defenders is not a good manager.
 
Based on what though? Vibes???

did you or did you not sit through players putting in the effort for him in the league last season?

effort was not the issue - the issue was he was not a good premier league tactician

Our underlying numbers for one and the fact that our results when we had our back 5 fit put us in and around the top 4.

It's funny because I'm pretty sure you were arguing last season saying exactly this and you were a continuous advocate of of these points, I don't know why you're arguing the contrary now, weird.

The effort that these guys have put in this season and the fact that this manager somehow managed to be even more useless than Ange who btw has managed to produced the worst performances of any Premier League manager at Spurs and the worst PPG of any top 6 manager, factual. You could not find a worse manager if you tried.

We still had high points last season and some great performances and results under Ange City 0-4, Utd 0-3, Villa 4-1, West Ham 4-1...Frank never got anywhere close to these performances.

Ange was a crap tactician who didn't learn from his mistakes you say but if he didn't learn from his mistakes we wouldn't have won the EL so maybe he did learn ;), regardless of that he got his players playing for him - Frank on the other hand...
 
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I mean, at the start of last season, we drew with Leicester, lost to Palace, Newcastle and Brighton with his best defenders on the pitch.

A manager who couldn't set us up to beat Ipswich when missing one of his preferred defenders is not a good manager.

Well that's very true but the underlying metrics were still strong. Certainly much much stronger than they've been at any stage this year.

But I think you're missing my point - the overall quality of the squad has been constantly degraded over time. By the time we were losing to Ipswich belief was inevitably starting to wane. The first 10 games of the previous season had conned all of us into thinking our squad was waayyy better than it actually was/is.

Losing Kane was the straw breaking the camel's back. Signing Solanke and three teenagers was the window that led inexorably to us being in a relegation battle right now.

I don't know if Postecoglou is a "good" manager" but I'm pretty certain Thomas Frank is. At least he's "above average". There's a long body of work in the Premier League to show that.

Yet we're genuinely in a relegation battle. Obviously injuries are part of this but that is also a product of overall squad depth and I just think blaming managers is missing the root cause of the problem. That's why I don't "hate" Frank at all. Don't' even really blame him at all. It's just more fan cope. We keep wanting to believe that the "right manager" will sort us out. But it won't. Not unless we unearth another Kane or spend the wages required to get genuinely world class gamechangers in.

Conte was the last roll of the dice and we fucked it - and he let us know we'd fucked it. It's just some supporters have refused to listen (or taken the wrong lesson)
 
Yep,and whilst I am not sure about the detail of all you have posted, whatever hold Postecoglou has/had on people is still in full swing.

Bizarre as anything to me. Maybe just symptomatic of what and why, so-called 'Influencers' are able to do what they do.

So much on so little. Weird.
Maybe we should organise compulsory ouija board sessions for all the players to try to exorcise the big bad Ange evil spirit.
Jack could make a cameo visit too for inspiration....."Here's Johnny..."
 
Mate I'm not getting into all that shit. If we didn't hire a gooner in Vinai who then hired a coward in Frank then we'd have been fine.

Ange would have had us midtable this season. Frank set us back decades. Atleast Ange gave us that trophy. The club is ran by idiots. Was crazy sacking levy when you see the mess they left behind. That is why we are losing sponsers!
Do you who hired both Vinai and Lange? We're losing sponsors because of the grnd promises we've been hearing for the last decade, how the stadium would propel us to the promised land, and companies were piggy backing off that with big sponsorship deals to get in ahead of the future success. They seen that sporting ambition was secondary and pulling their expensive deals. Do you know who made those promises?













:levyeyes:
 
I mean, at the start of last season, we drew with Leicester, lost to Palace, Newcastle and Brighton with his best defenders on the pitch.

A manager who couldn't set us up to beat Ipswich when missing one of his preferred defenders is not a good manager.
Are you a big Poch fan, do you want him back? I suggest you look at the last 9 months of his tenure and the points dropped, when he had pretty much a full team. Using cherry picked games, when almost every manager has those results is daft.

As much as I loath the creepy fucker, is Arteta better than Ange, sure is, he just dropped points to one of the worst sides ever in the PL. So, by your logic, he's not a good manager.

Fact is, with most of the back line fit last year, as Phomsey pointed out, results were more like a top 5 side, which was the debate.

I'm by no means an Ange lover, was the correct decision to get rid, but arguments like this one are just ridiculous.
 
Do you who hired both Vinai and Lange? We're losing sponsors because of the grnd promises we've been hearing for the last decade, how the stadium would propel us to the promised land, and companies were piggy backing off that with big sponsorship deals to get in ahead of the future success. They seen that sporting ambition was secondary and pulling their expensive deals. Do you know who made those promises?













:levyeyes:
There’s a post on another thread suggesting the sponsors are being lost due to lack of contact from us since Levy left.

Which is the true version? None of us know, but neither would be surprising.
 
This cunt’s tactics were awful and he was leading us down the shitter. On top of that, he was quite chippy with the fans and barely led trainings, delegating much more heavily to assistants than we thought at the time. He essentially was a figurehead for uncompetitive Premier League football. I have no sympathy for him.
 
There’s a post on another thread suggesting the sponsors are being lost due to lack of contact from us since Levy left.

Which is the true version? None of us know, but neither would be surprising.
Who knows, but the sponsors will have been sold the same crap as us, no doubt with a spin on how the stringent PSR type levers that will be implemented by the PL (which we're yet to see, years later), would make us more competitive than those around us.

We've been on a slide for the last 4 years, so terms ending now, signed when we were good, won't be seen as valuable now. I know if I were paying millions and millions to endorse my brand, it wouldn't be to one who's reputation in the game is waning.
 
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