no i didnt - the data about fouls is in there - not sure why you have missed it - maybe because of your own unconscious bias
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Match Tottenham Hotspur v Chelsea (A) - Premier League - 19th May, 8.15pm
- Thread starter The Fighting Cock
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no i didnt - the data about fouls is in there - not sure why you have missed it - maybe because of your own unconscious bias
Show me.
cards per foul were always in there - and I think attempted tackles made is a necessary bit of data to understand volume of cards received.
What a shambles . We created 6 or 7 gilt edge chances and blew the lot of them . Richarlison , Tel , Kolo Muani , Solanke - not one good striker in our whole squad . How have we let the striker situation get as bad as this . 3 seasons on the trot we've sold our top goal-scorer . First it was Kane then the season after that it was Son , and last season Johnson was sold . It's like something out of the keystone cops . The club are literally run by clowns . To not buy in the January window when we had 12 players on the physio's table is professional suicide .
The game :- we looked like a stable team at first but the errors were glaring when they happened . We gifted them 2 goals and it could have been more . If we're to survive the drop then I think you have to pick Maddison to start the final game of the season. When he came on late in the game , he was instrumental in a lot of our forward play . We looked like we were going to pull off a draw but it just wouldn't happen for us . Chavski were a bang average side and we should have beaten them and secured PL football for next season . I know it's not what people want to hear but - This time I think we've completely blown it . Toffees will be a very difficult team to beat even though we're at home I don't see us beating them . I thought Chavski were bang average and there for the taking last night and if we can't beat them we'll really struggle against Toffees . It was about an hour gone when we had our first shot on target , you can't have those sort of stats in PL and expect to survive the drop . We kept passing backwards and sideways again much to my annoyance , but when the young talent came on as subs we looked a more focused team , as time was running out when we lost the ball we had too many players committed forward on the pitch . We pressed very hard late in the game but chavski had a lot of luck and dealt with a lot of our chances . The referee didn't help matters - I know we need to play the whistle , but how can the referee give a yellow card for wrestling our player to the ground and not award the penalty . The referee got a lot of things wrong in the game .
Next game on Sunday against EVERTON . They're not fighting for European football but they won't care for our situation and will still try to win .
Why o why didn't the board get rid of TF earlier and the same question why bring in a total unknown - Igor Tudor to replace TF when he was eventually sacked . The club needs stripping back from the top down , and rebuilding with recognised and established people at boardroom level . We need a set of trainers that are not going to have 12 players on the physios table . We need a fire-sale with the squad . Get rid of the deadwood and bring in top talent , not kids we think will become top talent . We have spent the same amount of money as the top clubs , but have wasted it on a poor choices of players . Players think when they arrive here that they've made it and don't have to try any harder - that attitude has to be eradicated .
The songs :- we were in good voice even at 2-0 down , surprisingly the nearer it got to the final whistle the louder we got . So we did our part . I would say to their credit that the players came over to applaud our support even though they were devastated .
My post match reports are becoming more and more like obituaries . The club is in dire straits and even with the players putting in their all , silly mistakes are in danger of sending us down . When we work we have to focus for 40 hours a week . The players have to focus for 95+mins and they're not doing it .
I wrote 90% of this last night when I got in from the game at 1:30am but didn't have the heart to post it up . Sorry for the delay
One last roll of the dice left .
COYS...&...TTID..................CSWY
The game :- we looked like a stable team at first but the errors were glaring when they happened . We gifted them 2 goals and it could have been more . If we're to survive the drop then I think you have to pick Maddison to start the final game of the season. When he came on late in the game , he was instrumental in a lot of our forward play . We looked like we were going to pull off a draw but it just wouldn't happen for us . Chavski were a bang average side and we should have beaten them and secured PL football for next season . I know it's not what people want to hear but - This time I think we've completely blown it . Toffees will be a very difficult team to beat even though we're at home I don't see us beating them . I thought Chavski were bang average and there for the taking last night and if we can't beat them we'll really struggle against Toffees . It was about an hour gone when we had our first shot on target , you can't have those sort of stats in PL and expect to survive the drop . We kept passing backwards and sideways again much to my annoyance , but when the young talent came on as subs we looked a more focused team , as time was running out when we lost the ball we had too many players committed forward on the pitch . We pressed very hard late in the game but chavski had a lot of luck and dealt with a lot of our chances . The referee didn't help matters - I know we need to play the whistle , but how can the referee give a yellow card for wrestling our player to the ground and not award the penalty . The referee got a lot of things wrong in the game .
Next game on Sunday against EVERTON . They're not fighting for European football but they won't care for our situation and will still try to win .
Why o why didn't the board get rid of TF earlier and the same question why bring in a total unknown - Igor Tudor to replace TF when he was eventually sacked . The club needs stripping back from the top down , and rebuilding with recognised and established people at boardroom level . We need a set of trainers that are not going to have 12 players on the physios table . We need a fire-sale with the squad . Get rid of the deadwood and bring in top talent , not kids we think will become top talent . We have spent the same amount of money as the top clubs , but have wasted it on a poor choices of players . Players think when they arrive here that they've made it and don't have to try any harder - that attitude has to be eradicated .
The songs :- we were in good voice even at 2-0 down , surprisingly the nearer it got to the final whistle the louder we got . So we did our part . I would say to their credit that the players came over to applaud our support even though they were devastated .
My post match reports are becoming more and more like obituaries . The club is in dire straits and even with the players putting in their all , silly mistakes are in danger of sending us down . When we work we have to focus for 40 hours a week . The players have to focus for 95+mins and they're not doing it .
I wrote 90% of this last night when I got in from the game at 1:30am but didn't have the heart to post it up . Sorry for the delay
One last roll of the dice left .
COYS...&...TTID..................CSWY
cards per foul were always in there - and I think attempted tackles made is a necessary bit of data to understand volume of cards received.
Do those fouls take into account things like dissent, time wasting, getting in the refs face, diving,, encroachment etc...?
only good thing about last night was how class the away end sounded
well done Yids that were there
well done Yids that were there
I have no idea - if they do then they do for everyone, and if they don't, then they don't for everyone?
What is clear from the data is that total attempted tackles to fouls given is pretty consistent across the board but i will dig up some data about what cards are given for....
Its also interesting looking at the data from last year -when we were equally as shit and likely to finish this season in the same place that we were right in the average for all of this stuff - nearly like our on the pitch quality is the reason where we are going to finish.
My son just sent me a stat tbat showed the filth have not beaten any club as much as they have beaten us.
We should be grateful it was not the last match of the season and us needing points. We would definitely be down.
We should be grateful it was not the last match of the season and us needing points. We would definitely be down.
I think above all else that's the point here.
Not sure you can ask people to provide proof if you can't counter prove it yourself.
I was at the game with clients in the Chelsea end.
I thought we were the better side, created a bunch of chances and got into some incredible positions but the front 4 were just no where near good enough. Tel is such a frustrating players as he created one huge chance and contributed massively to the goal but then bombed 4 key moments, including that last one.
Muani is just awful, that mistake for their second was a joke. Get him gone asap.
Bentacur was excellent again, really brilliant performance, he was everywhere and got us out of trouble so many times and moved the ball brilliantly.
The sad reality is, if we had our starting front 4 in those same positions and chances we win that game comfortably. I was with bunch of chalsea fan clients and when we were 2-0 up they said they really dont understand how its 2-0 and theyve been out played.
I thought we were the better side, created a bunch of chances and got into some incredible positions but the front 4 were just no where near good enough. Tel is such a frustrating players as he created one huge chance and contributed massively to the goal but then bombed 4 key moments, including that last one.
Muani is just awful, that mistake for their second was a joke. Get him gone asap.
Bentacur was excellent again, really brilliant performance, he was everywhere and got us out of trouble so many times and moved the ball brilliantly.
The sad reality is, if we had our starting front 4 in those same positions and chances we win that game comfortably. I was with bunch of chalsea fan clients and when we were 2-0 up they said they really dont understand how its 2-0 and theyve been out played.
its a discussion, mate -
it needs back and forth - someone makes a claim - that claim is investigated and found to be lakcing in the data to support it - more data is requested
no idea what is wrong with that?
I also think good faith requires some acknowledgement that there is a clear correlation between attempted tackles to fouls given across the board - and it will also be worth noting that a number of our cards have come from dissent and diving so our tackles to cards given for fouls is actually lower than the value I have put out suggests.
Two dives versus Woolwich - Romero, VDV booked for dissent- thats 4 cards given off the top of my head that had nothing to do with tackles so our 'card to foul' ratio in relation to tackling is lower than my table suggests and more in line with the rest of the league.
lol exactly, you yourself told everyone to prove that we are being refereed unfairly and yet you're unable to provide any legit counter claims yourself, so how does that make you different to any of those saying there's a conspiracy? All well and good asking for proof yet you can't provide any yourself.
If your logic is that it's an open discussion then I don't see why you're so quick to mock others.
We went through this a couple of months back, you asked for evidence you say it cannot be proved because of grey area which is fine, I'm asking for the same thing you asked for but we are staring at grey area in your stats.
Maybe the tackle argument is the narrative that you want to pursue because you can use it as a convenient tool to dismiss those who claim we are being refereed unfairly, I mean I'll acknowledge it for you but I still need more context.
You're completely missing the point
I know I have conscious bias - but I'm not the one telling you that what you believe is embarrassing or crazy - but you are to everyone else.
Yeah. It's our lack of firepower up-front that is the huge problem.
Im literally working to present context and objective data. Will happily find more.
Ive been told im being contrarian for the sake of it and that is lack imagination.
Im not saying you are crazy, but it is embarrassing reading and watching so much stuff about match fixing.
Im sorry it is.
We would and have said the same about other teams when they do the same
You are arguing that the data backs up your claim, you're doing it now, whilst ignoring the fact that the data is fundamentally flawed because it only records what happened, not what didn't but should have. As such, it is only consistent in showing part of the picture, not the whole. Therefore, it HAS to be viewed as flawed.
I never said you did, I suggested you had that mindset, which is reinforced by your assertion that a flawed "consistency" is proof.
Precisely my point. Before VAR we had some contention in the odd game. Now we have contention in virtually ALL of the games played. Before VAR, the odd ref would have a ricket, now we essentially have 3 referees making far more inexplicable decisions. You claim it's just ineptitude, whereas I believe it is both ineptitude and corruption.
As are mine, hence why I qualified that my argument is beyond just a "them and us" argument.
If it were that simple, the spread would be even. It's not though, as you've just admitted yourself. Whether it's bias or by design, it is still corruption, as you have supposed "neutral" officials making decisions predominantly in favour of certain clubs. It's not just this season either, this has been consistently displayed over decades.
The exception that proves the rule. Much like goal line tech, that is one area that isn't really subject to human interference, though it is contributing massively to the erosion of "the beautiful game." It is every other aspect of officiating that is only consistent in its favour towards certain teams, by using inconsistency to produce a favourable result for those teams. Simon's Red, Havertz Yellow, VVD no foul as an example of just one foul, almost identical in every aspect, but only one team punished appropriately. I don't contend the Simons Red, I contend that the other 2 should also be Red but, because of who they play for, they weren't.
I've stated this multiple times over multiple threads. The PL require their biggest teams, in terms of Worldwide fanbase, to be successful as often as possible. This then means that their product is sought after and they can charge top dollar to sell the broadcasting rights.
You really have to be naive to think that they wouldn't do something to ensure they maximise their appeal to those fans. The odd romantic "Leicester season" only allows the illusion of fairness. The reality can be seen in every match you watch.
I don't, and this is why what the PL do works. You only need to look at the reaction to WH's disallowed goal on here to see that. Whilst it was acknowledged that the call, whilst right, has been something Woolwich have got away with all season, most were happy because we benefited vicariously from it.
The PL understand the tribal nature of fans so well that they're pretty blatant about it now. They also understand this "were British so corruption NEVER happens here" arrogance that seems to pervade here.
I watch a fair bit of EFL Football, all without VAR. These are supposed to be "lesser" referees yet, without VAR, the number of contentious decisions are miniscule compared to the PL.
How is it that a ref and 2 linesmen, in lesser leagues with far fewer fans and far less TV revenue at risk, are able to officiate to a much higher degree than in a league where you have essentially 3 refs and 2 linesmen, with the benefit of video replay to inform their decisions?
Unconscious bias towards neutrality?
You're embarrassed by what others write?
Really?
You yourself are embarrassed because someone feels that we as a team are constantly getting shafted more than any other teams??
Maybe this runs deeper than your need to convince everyone else that they're crazy and only you are right.
I am not saying the data is complete. It obviously is not. It records fouls, cards, tackles and attempted tackles that were actually given. It does not record every foul that should have been given, every yellow that should have been red, or every penalty that should have been awarded.
So yes, on that specific point, I agree with you. The data is limited.
But limited does not mean useless.
What it does show is that, in the decisions that are actually being recorded across the league, Spurs are not some wild statistical outlier. We are not sitting in some completely different category where every attempted tackle becomes a foul or every foul becomes a card. The spread is actually pretty small.
That does not disprove individual bad decisions. It does not prove PGMOL are good. It does not prove the system is fair. It just means the recorded data does not support the idea that Spurs are being uniquely hammered in a way that clearly separates us from everyone else.
If anyone can provide me data to show for non-calls then lets have a conversation about that - add it to the data set and lets see? - right now its just 'my eyes have seen this happen to spurs and that Woolwich - which is also data that is significantly flawed and I can rightly call into question.
Where I mainly disagree with you is the jump from inconsistency to corruption.
I have no issue saying refereeing is inconsistent. I have no issue saying big clubs probably get the benefit of the doubt more often. I have no issue saying unconscious bias, reputation, crowd pressure, narrative, and weak officiating all play a part. As a big club compared to many other clubs, we, by this logic, should benefit from. Brentford can claim Romero should have been sent off on NYD and we benefited from being a big club in those games - so does it not work both ways and arent we mopre likely to have bias come our way in general?
But corruption is a much bigger claim, and I have again only heard incredibly flawed logic to suggest this is real.
Fully agree with you.
2 moments of Enzo brillance cost us a game in which we looked really nice (except front 3) to me at place where we sucked even in better days.
Just compare how simple ball Enzo played for 2nd goal vs what our wingers did multiple times in similar position
That killed us.