A Philosophical Objection to VAR

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

The illusion of precision.

It's one of the big cons ever perpetrated

 

[FightingIllini]

Exactly...using VAR for offside is still open to human error. e.g. Firmino was given marginally offside earlier in the season by VAR. However, I'd contend that whoever was using VAR got it wrong, and did not draw the lines correctly - I think it was the line from the defender's knee (Mings?) to the ground was not long enough because VAR does not have a fully 3D model, and the VAR person made a mistake.

The idea that the camera can freeze-frame on the exact moment of contact with the ball is also the illusion of precision.

But we could do this all day. Ultimately I really appreciate the title of this thread because while VAR is a total mess in many technical ways, what we are dealing with here is not a manufacturing defect, we are dealing with something that is philosophically wrong. It is the wrong answer to the wrong question and will be a poison on the game for as long as it is inflicted.

 

[River Lea Banks 🇺🇦]

Football is a organic game of passion, not robotics. VAR out!

 

[Allejo10]

Inconclusive...

In the UCL final against us that's pretty conclusive!

 

[Johnboy40]

Fucking hell. For years all I've heard is people whining about shit offside decisions and conspiracy theories about refs inconsistency ruining football

"all we want is consistency "

We get a system that has pretty much eradicated the incorrect offside decision and now it's

"football isn't supposed to be about consistency"

it hasnt eradicated it. weve seen two this week that were wrong. (one of which was in our favour)

the only way to eradicate it is to be able to capture the image at the precise moment the ball is played.
its still an opinion, that the player is offside. just a better informed one.

 

[shempz]

We get a system that has pretty much eradicated the incorrect offside decision

Except it hasn't. VAR is still subject to human error for offside decisions - and has actually made a few errors and been subject to guesswork on the offside 'line'.

 

[shempz]

5. Confusion and waiting. Cue two-dimensional renderings of three-dimensional space at, probably, 23 frames a second. I’m still unconvinced of the legitimacy of this.

Nailed it on this one mate. I said earlier that VAR does not have a truly 3D view of the pitch - so a lot of it is guesswork on the VAR operators part.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Do your bit and get rid of this shite....

 

[Totti]

VAR isn't the problem.

Its the interpretation of the system. The offside rule needs to be changed. The application of the system itself needs to be used better.

The correct decision regarding the Mane goal yesterday for example. We all saw clearly from the first replay it wasn't handball. It shouldn't take official's 2 minutes to come to a conclusion.

If anything, we need better referees. Anthony Taylor was the referee in charge yesterday, he was also the same guy who gave us a free kick for Gazzaniga kicking Alonso, when VAR overturned his incompetence.

 

[Jenny Talia]

Stunning, the powers that be are ready to recognize what every sane fan has been saying for months.

VAR 'should not be too forensic' - football law-makers set to issue guidance

 

[CaptainWow]

If it’s not an obvious decision within 30 seconds it’s inconclusive and whatever the original call was should stand.

A 30 second VAR countdown for goals and red cards would be a lot of fun.

I think what people are mostly asking for is clear and obvious but also quick. It's only sad nerdy attention seeking wankers (refs and pundits) that want millions of people to wait while they paw over the footage frame by frame so they can feel important. Let the VAR refs watch the footage back a couple of times in slow motion and then tell the ref if he ballsed it up. Otherwise let the ref actually referee the game. Get that right and then you can start using it for the other stuff that pisses fans off, like yellow cards, fouls given where no contact was made, corners given or not given the wrong way.

 

[Dr Rocktopus]

A 30 second VAR countdown for goals and red cards would be a lot of fun.

I think what people are mostly asking for is clear and obvious but also quick. It's only sad nerdy attention seeking wankers (refs and pundits) that want millions of people to wait while they paw over the footage frame by frame so they can feel important. Let the VAR refs watch the footage back a couple of times in slow motion and then tell the ref if he ballsed it up. Otherwise let the ref actually referee the game. Get that right and then you can start using it for the other stuff that pisses fans off, like yellow cards, fouls given where no contact was made, corners given or not given the wrong way.

The ‘clear and obvious’ part of it is what I support. It’s very difficult of course, because the obvious errors need to be identified in a matter of seconds to avoid games constantly halting. Red and yellow cards should be fine for VAR (again, if it’s immediately obvious). Corners should be a ten or twenty second decision.

The big thing for me would be for VAR to be ok with not being decisive. It’s ok to admit that some decisions are ambiguous, and therefore not something VAR can decide.

For me, Dele’s beautiful goal against United could easily have been ruled out. It was human choice that decided if it was or wasn’t a goal. If it gets to that point it should simply be considered inconclusive.

There’s always going to be disputed decisions in sport. Technology like this should be used to identify the obvious errors that anyone watching would agree with, like Kane’s offside against Brighton.

 

[Dr Rocktopus]

You're right. One of the biggest problems is that the people running VAR want it to be perfect. Or at least appear to be perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to help make things better without ruining the flow of the game.

I honestly think we’d all be OK with VAR if the decisions were genuinely obvious. Obvious mistakes will always happen, so if a review shows that someone was a yard offside we can’t really complain.

If it’s unclear, just go for the initial decision. VAR decisions should be something that everyone can agree with. If we’re arguing about millimetres it’s entered a territory beyond fair judgment.

VAR should be about definitive evidence, not speculative.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

This is taking the piss!!

 

[SpiderSpurs]

Ha!!

 

[r-u-s-x]

I'm still sore over what happened with Leicester because it goes beyond a disallowed goal. I feel the decision robbed us of our naturally earned momentum and gave it to the other team; just as I knew we would win when we scored the second goal, I knew we would lose when the goal was taken away.

I feel that what happened on Saturday has serious long-term implications for the integrity of the sport. Do we now penalise the team that works hard to gain the initiative in the match and turn the fruits of that labour over to the team that sits on its backside for 65 minutes?

What are your thoughts?

nothing changed on Saturday - this type of decision has been happening with VAR in the other countries it is being used be that a call on a penalty or a call on a questionable offside. It normally goes to the bigger team.

Those who like VAR will continue to point to things it does right and excuse those that are wrong with ironing out the flaws / it was human judgement that was wrong.

It takes away more than it adds to the game imo, there was no overwhelming call to bring it in (the poll prior to introduction had 60/40 against) and they did not perfect it before bringing it in (Goal line technology had to be perfect before they allowed its use in the big leagues).

 

[r-u-s-x]

It's shite in it's current form, ruining the game in my view. If it has to be used then only for clear and obvious errors which is what i thought was the original intention. Spending minutes and drawing dodgy lines down from players knees, shoulders etc to line up with lines across the pitch to detemine someone is 1.6 cm offside and gaining no real advantage is against the spirit of the game in my view.

It's working as originally intended, clear and obvious and matters of fact... Offside was always considered a factual thing.

I hate var so not sticking up for it but this was the original stated intention.

 

[Maccer]

It's working as originally intended, clear and obvious and matters of fact... Offside was always considered a factual thing.

I hate var so not sticking up for it but this was the original stated intention.

Clear and obvious onfield errors are being ignored by the VAR ref, what are you on about ?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Clear and obvious onfield errors are being ignored by the VAR ref, what are you on about ?

Talking about offsides always meaning to be this way,it's by design, read the post I responded to

 

[Maccer]

Talking about offsides always meaning to be this way,it's by design, read the post I responded to

Read what you posted

'' It's working as originally intended, clear and obvious and matters of fact ''