Manager Ange Postecoglou

[Shadydan]

Because we're talking about the decision making process last year prior to us winning the Cup.

If being in Europe was a valid case for keeping the manager then, then it should also be now.

I'm not totally sure you're actually reading what I'm writing, I'm not justifying keeping him, I want him to go, but by the logic we applied last year then he should be left in post until all trophy winning avenues have been exhausted surely?

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I don't know why you keep saying this, either you're ignoring the obvious point or you're being totally disingenuous.

Last season we were favourites to win the EL, even from the start of the competition we were seen as the most equipped team to win the competition. now whether you think keeping or sacking Ange would have helped or hindered us in that respect that was enough grounds to keeping him in the job whether you like it or not and as I said the decision was entirely justified as we ended up winning it anyway.

So just merely being in Europe isn't a valid case unless you actually think we're going to win the Champions League or you think we are even somewhere amongst the favourites to win it, we're not and by keeping Frank in the job all you're doing is hurting us domestically and prolonging the inevitable because there will be no rewards from it come the end of the season.

And Ange at the very least had more grounds to keep his job, at the very least you could point to his 5th place finish, you could point to the underlying numbers which are far better than Frank's, you could even point to the fact that we reached the Semi of the Carabao and beat Utd and City in the process meaning there was still at least a bit of fight in the team, slim pickings obviously but there are clear differences between last season and this season.

It's not the same logic, it's not the same standard and it's not anywhere near the same circumstance, this is a nothing argument.

 

[Herclueless]

I don't know why you keep saying this, either you're ignoring the obvious point or you're being totally disingenuous.

Last season we were favourites to win the EL, even from the start of the competition we were seen as the most equipped team to win the competition. now whether you think keeping or sacking Ange would have helped or hindered us in that respect that was enough grounds to keeping him in the job whether you like it or not and as I said the decision was entirely justified as we ended up winning it anyway.

So just merely being in Europe isn't a valid case unless you actually think we're going to win the Champions League or you think we are even somewhere amongst the favourites to win it, we're not and by keeping Frank in the job all you're doing is hurting us domestically and prolonging the inevitable because there will be no rewards from it come the end of the season.

And Ange at the very least had more grounds to keep his job, at the very least you could point to his 5th place finish, you could point to the underlying numbers which are far better than Frank's, you could even point to the fact that we reached the Semi of the Carabao and beat Utd and City in the process meaning there was still at least a bit of fight in the team, slim pickings obviously but there are clear differences between last season and this season.

It's not the same logic, it's not the same standard and it's not anywhere near the same circumstance, this is a nothing argument.

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I don't think your case is as solid as you seem to believe.

Why does our unlikeliness of winning CL make it imperative to sack Frank exactly? Seems to me that if you're of that opinion then there is just nothing to play for this season and so why bother? You think we're at risk of going down? Aren't we actually better off points wise under Frank than at the same point last season? Hardly anything to shout about but still...

Surely if we were such favourites last year then it would have been better to twist and get someone more capable in to ensure that we took full advantage of the position we were in, than stick with someone who was overwhelming the squad with a losing mentality week after week?

 

[glacierSpurs]

than stick with someone who was overwhelming the squad with a losing mentality week after week?

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Always losing matches doesn't equate to losing mentality. How is nobody seeing that Ange always plays to win. No doubt Ange was naive and stubborn in his play that he couldn't get more points. But losing mentality is you started the game taking the 1 point already, with no intention to score OR defending a 1 goal lead at half time and time wasting. Yes, that's losing mentality under Frank for you.

 

[Shadydan]

I don't think your case is as solid as you seem to believe.

Why does our unlikeliness of winning CL make it imperative to sack Frank exactly? Seems to me that if you're of that opinion then there is just nothing to play for this season and so why bother? You think we're at risk of going down? Aren't we actually better off points wise under Frank than at the same point last season? Hardly anything to shout about but still...

Surely if we were such favourites last year then it would have been better to twist and get someone more capable in to ensure that we took full advantage of the position we were in, than stick with someone who was overwhelming the squad with a losing mentality week after week?

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Are you being serious?

I don’t want Frank gone because he might fall short in the Champions League — I want him gone because he’s been objectively shit and there’s genuinely nothing to buy into right now.

And yeah, we might be slightly better off points-wise, but look at the context. Burnley, Leeds, West Ham and Forest have all managed to pick up results lately, while we’ve just had one of the easiest five-game runs you could ask for — Brentford, Sunderland, Bournemouth, West Ham and Burnley — and taken 3 points from 15. Now look at the next four fixtures… if that doesn’t worry you, I don’t know what will.

You keep saying you’re not arguing to keep him, but every point you make sounds exactly like that

Also, your overall argument is bizarre. You’re genuinely debating whether it might’ve been better to sack Ange for a “better outcome” even though he won a trophy. Do you actually hear yourself?

 

[Herclueless]

Are you being serious?

I don’t want Frank gone because he might fall short in the Champions League — I want him gone because he’s been objectively shit and there’s genuinely nothing to buy into right now.

And yeah, we might be slightly better off points-wise, but look at the context. Burnley, Leeds, West Ham and Forest have all managed to pick up results lately, while we’ve just had one of the easiest five-game runs you could ask for — Brentford, Sunderland, Bournemouth, West Ham and Burnley — and taken 3 points from 15. Now look at the next four fixtures… if that doesn’t worry you, I don’t know what will.

You keep saying you’re not arguing to keep him, but every point you make sounds exactly like that

Also, your overall argument is bizarre. You’re genuinely debating whether it might’ve been better to sack Ange for a “better outcome” even though he won a trophy. Do you actually hear yourself?

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I'm absolutely serious, the nonsense that was being spouted last season should be spouted by the same people this season, the hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[Shadydan]

I'm absolutely serious, the nonsense that was being spouted last season should be spouted by the same people this season, the hypocrisy is astounding.

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You can’t call it hypocrisy unless the same standard is being applied and these two situations aren’t even remotely comparable. Sorry.

 

[AberdeenYid]

I'm absolutely serious, the nonsense that was being spouted last season should be spouted by the same people this season, the hypocrisy is astounding.

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Here’s where I am on this, call it hypocrisy if you wish, but I don’t agree:

I liked Ange. Still do. Like the way he spoke to the fans and press. I believed him when he said he always wanted to win and do so playing attacking football. I wanted to see him and us rewarded for sticking by him. And we were. To an extent. And if he didn’t have the injuries he had (however they came about), I’m sure he’d have done much better and not had to play the stiffs in the league. As it was, I think he got the best from what he had.

I don’t like Frank. Never have. Didn’t want him here and it took half a dozen matches for me to confirm he wasn’t right for us. I don’t like what he says to the fans or press, I think he’s a gaslighting cunt. I don’t like the way he sets us up to play. He always seems to go for the most defensive line up he can. He won’t get us relegated, but he’s never going to achieve anything else. Even though he’s had injuries to contend with, he’s still getting less out of what he has than he should.

If you can find hypocrisy in this, you are a better man than me. I believed in one guy, don’t in the other.

 

[Herclueless]

Here’s where I am on this, call it hypocrisy if you wish, but I don’t agree:

I liked Ange. Still do. Like the way he spoke to the fans and press. I believed him when he said he always wanted to win and do so playing attacking football. I wanted to see him and us rewarded for sticking by him. And we were. To an extent. And if he didn’t have the injuries he had (however they came about), I’m sure he’d have done much better and not had to play the stiffs in the league. As it was, I think he got the best from what he had.

I don’t like Frank. Never have. Didn’t want him here and it took half a dozen matches for me to confirm he wasn’t right for us. I don’t like what he says to the fans or press, I think he’s a gaslighting cunt. I don’t like the way he sets us up to play. He always seems to go for the most defensive line up he can. He won’t get us relegated, but he’s never going to achieve anything else. Even though he’s had injuries to contend with, he’s still getting less out of what he has than he should.

If you can find hypocrisy in this, you are a better man than me. I believed in one guy, don’t in the other.

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I liked him too, until I didn't...

It was largely tied to results, or more accurately performances. Once I reached the point of being bored to tears by the matches I was watching, the point where I actually disliked tuning in twice per week, knowing what the result was gonna be no matter who we were playing, that's when his quips began to grate, that's when I began to look at his bristly attitude and cringe, the longer it went on and the guy was actively antagonising our own fans and going so far as to try having a scrap with them it just became an embarrassment.

To me, how awful we are this season doesn't seem such a shock to the system, because we were seeing this abject level of performance last season. Even in the Europa, that he "saved" his best players for, that he sacrificed the League for, where he put his supposed best foot forward, it was shit to watch.

 

[Herclueless]

You can’t call it hypocrisy unless the same standard is being applied and these two situations aren’t even remotely comparable. Sorry.

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They are though.

At least AberdeenYid is honest enough to admit the only difference is that he liked Ange and doesn't like Frank.

 

[AberdeenYid]

I liked him too, until I didn't...

It was largely tied to results, or more accurately performances. Once I reached the point of being bored to tears by the matches I was watching, the point where I actually disliked tuning in twice per week, knowing what the result was gonna be no matter who we were playing, that's when his quips began to grate, that's when I began to look at his bristly attitude and cringe, the longer it went on and the guy was actively antagonising our own fans and going so far as to try having a scrap with them it just became an embarrassment.

To me, how awful we are this season doesn't seem such a shock to the system, because we were seeing this abject level of performance last season. Even in the Europa, that he "saved" his best players for, that he sacrificed the League for, where he put his supposed best foot forward, it was shit to watch.

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Aye, it wasn’t great. I just kept getting by on hope. But I did stop actually attending matches around March last year. Not been to one this season. I think we are a lot worse this season though. But only my opinion.

They are though.

At least AberdeenYid is honest enough to admit the only difference is that he liked Ange and doesn't like Frank.

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Not the only difference. Not going to re-eat my post, but there’s a lot more to it than like and dislike.

 

[Shadydan]

They are though.

At least AberdeenYid is honest enough to admit the only difference is that he liked Ange and doesn't like Frank.

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Nah they're not, all you're doing is looking at basic surface level analysis and looking at points and positions, I've already explained why they aren't the same.

This is all academic anyway, we won with Ange completely justifying why we kept him on, if you don't think we will win with Frank because we obviously won't then this debate is pointless and desperate.

 

[McCOYS]

I mention Frank because he's won nothing. Ever.

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Nothing in a top league or cup competition but he did win the EFL Championship playoff final

Apparently it was Brentford's first promotion to the top tier since 1934.

 

[candrews]

I liked him too, until I didn't...

It was largely tied to results, or more accurately performances. Once I reached the point of being bored to tears by the matches I was watching, the point where I actually disliked tuning in twice per week, knowing what the result was gonna be no matter who we were playing, that's when his quips began to grate, that's when I began to look at his bristly attitude and cringe, the longer it went on and the guy was actively antagonising our own fans and going so far as to try having a scrap with them it just became an embarrassment.

To me, how awful we are this season doesn't seem such a shock to the system, because we were seeing this abject level of performance last season. Even in the Europa, that he "saved" his best players for, that he sacrificed the League for, where he put his supposed best foot forward, it was shit to watch.

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You're misdirecting your pain, anger, and tears (cry baby) at the wrong person though considering the circumstances. You absolutely should have been directing it at the board who left us severely lacking in depth for that season despite European competition!

Ange was crying out for more players and for established players to come into the 11. Instead he got Solanke, Gray, Yang min, Werner and Odobert - who got injured straight away and missed most of the season!

These issues were around long before Ange. You just don't seem like you have the memory for it...or potentially you weren't a Tottenham fan at that point?

 

[candrews]

Nothing in a top league or cup competition but he did win the EFL Championship playoff final

Apparently it was Brentford's first promotion to the top tier since 1934.

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Never even been a professional player. Such a MASSIVE no no!! The sort of decision that can be made by someone who knows NOTHING about football or even management dynamics.

You really think the likes of VDV and Romero are listening to someone who can't even drink out of a cup without fucking it up?

I wouldn't be listening to what he had to say, like I wouldn't or most of you wouldn't if you had a manager explaining situations they have never been a part of or experienced themselves.

 

[McCOYS]

Never even been a professional player. Such a MASSIVE no no!! The sort of decision that can be made by someone who knows NOTHING about football or even management dynamics.

You really think the likes of VDV and Romero are listening to someone who can't even drink out of a cup without fucking it up?

I wouldn't be listening to what he had to say, like I wouldn't or most of you wouldn't if you had a manager explaining situations they have never been a part of or experienced themselves.

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I'm sorry I just pointed out that he had indeed won something.

That's not meant to be interpreted as a statement of support for Frank, I've wanted him gone by Christmas.

I've said it before, presently at our club, not that I know who everyone is but from top down, the first person that I know as having played professional football is John Heitinga.

I would say though that if these tactics that Frank is telling the players to do are to blame, then you can't also say that players aren't listening to him because the only evidence we have of the tactics are the players displaying them.

 

[Bazali]

Why are you lot still talking about this fat clown

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Watch out

You’ve just upset his No 1 fan!

 

[Kiro Kompiro]

I'd rather the PL this season ended after fixture 1, but it didn't did it?

You can't just cherry pick the fixtures and competitions you want to have a winning mentality in, that seems entirely at odds with the term "winning mentality" as I see it.

The shocking performance in the League wasn't a result of prioritising Europa, we had blown the League long before that due to poor management, poor tactics, what seemed like zero technical training whatsoever...

In the absolute wildest of scenarios, if we went and won CL this season and Frank tried to claim that he sacked off the league in order to do it, would anyone believe him at all???

Still in 3 cups was the great mantra for a while, until Liverpool rolled us over in the League Cup Semi 2nd Leg, then we were still in 2 cups, until the following weekend where we were knocked out of the FA Cup too, the argument for keeping Ange at this point last season was as flimsy as it is for Frank, he just happened to be in an easier Euro competition.

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You're forgetting the reality of the injury toll. The squad quality was never deep enough to challenge for the league. No-one's winning the league with Fraser Forster or Kinsky in goal ably backed by Archie Gray and Ben Davies.

Having said that do you think he really said to the players that its ok to lose because we're targetting the Europa?

Do you really believe because of the decision to focus on the Europa League as the only realistic pathway to Champions League is a factor in holding this group back now in the league under Frank?

 

[Herclueless]

You're forgetting the reality of the injury toll. The squad quality was never deep enough to challenge for the league. No-one's winning the league with Fraser Forster or Kinsky in goal ably backed by Archie Gray and Ben Davies.

Having said that do you think he really said to the players that its ok to lose because we're targetting the Europa?

Do you really believe because of the decision to focus on the Europa League as the only realistic pathway to Champions League is a factor in holding this group back now in the league under Frank?

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I believe that the malaise we're currently seeing set in last season under his watch.

I don't think he told them to lose, I think he was helpless to stop it due to inadequacy.

I think Frank might be a deeply unsexy appointment for this club, but I don't think he's an idiot, for him not to have this squad at least comfortably in mid-table I think he must be having to try and unravel an almighty mess at the club.

Not at all confident he's the right man to do it ultimately, I'd rather sack him early and move on to someone more charismatic, but also technically capable.

Though he also is battling an absurd injury list.

 

[Kiro Kompiro]

I believe that the malaise we're currently seeing set in last season under his watch.

I don't think he told them to lose, I think he was helpless to stop it due to inadequacy.

I think Frank might be a deeply unsexy appointment for this club, but I don't think he's an idiot, for him not to have this squad at least comfortably in mid-table I think he must be having to try and unravel an almighty mess at the club.

Not at all confident he's the right man to do it ultimately, I'd rather sack him early and move on to someone more charismatic, but also technically capable.

Though he also is battling an absurd injury list.

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Fair enough, I see it differently. IMO winning a European Cup should have given the players belief and confidence, a springboard for this season.

After Postecoglou we needed a more tactically astute manager who could harness the positivity of the Cup win, who could motivate the players and make them believe anything is possible.

Frank is the complete opposite of that. I'd go further in saying he doesn actually have belief in his players, he's said as much in his pressers ("This is a team thats finished 17th last season..."). Which I find strange-its not like he has coached world class players that this group is a drop in standards for him.

 

[Jenderbazzfass]

Is the greatest manager of all time still unemployed?