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Manager Ange Postecoglou

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Was sacking Ange a good idea?

  • Yes, I think it was a good idea.

    Votes: 73 64.6%
  • No, I think it was a bad idea.

    Votes: 40 35.4%

  • Total voters
    113
Exactly what coach out there challenges for the league with our current wage structure?

Challenge in this context means more being up there in the same vein we were under Poch than anything else. Unlike others, despite the financial power of this league I don't think it is very strong currently. Chelsea have a lot of cash but their team is horrendously weak and imbalanced, Liverpool have a strong XI but their depth is actually pretty poor, City are about to embark on a huge rebuild and United are a mess. Woolwich are just a decent, competent team and sit 2nd ffs - without Saka the forward line is barely top half quality. The likes of Bournemouth, Forest, Newcastle are all up there challenging on a good level.

Liverpool next season lose Salah and Trent. Maybe VVD. And they have penny pinching wanker owners of their own. We have lots of gap with FFP, loads of wages saved. A reasonably high profile, demanding coach who demands backing and isn't just lucky/happy to be here genuinely could have an opportunity as we will probably be playing one game a week next season, just like we were under Ange first season. Big advantage.
 
You won't get a disagree from me regarding Leicester, but you can't just brush off losing an entire spine, literally no other team has had to deal with that, and it's showed.

I'm not expecting you to change your mind on AP, there's nothing there to back that up yet. As I see it though, it's been a cataclysmic domino effect that our injury crisis has essentially caused.

Yes we had some poor results when we had most of the team fit initially, but every team gets them. Things just went totally to shit when we were losing two to three players after each subsequent game. We'll never know if we would have built up a winning momentum after some of those poor results, because the injury situation just got worse after each game. I've followed Spurs since the early 70's and I've never seen a situation like it, for us or anyone else.

Lose one or two key players and you're likely to struggle somewhat, look at the filth when they lost just Saliba last season, then Odegaard earlier this season, and now Saka. They didn't lose all of them at the same time, yet struggled regardless in those games where each individual was missed. They're key players, yet they don't make up the spine of their side, apart from Saliba that is. We lost the lot!

What I struggle with is the inability, or refusal of some, to take all of these aspects into account. Getting out of a losing streak is a difficult enough task when your team is fit, ours has been exacerbated by the fact that a good half of our squad was in the treatment room for months, with the larger part of that being our spine and other key players. It impacts everything from the fitness of those remaining, to the mentality of the whole. Doesn't matter what level you are or have played at, anyone who's been in that scenario will tell you this.

Anyway, we can but hope that we are now moving out of that and building the confidence and momentum back. It's amazing just how much the Football improves when you start getting that winnings feeling.

Who is brushing it off? Its football. Liverpool lost their entire spine under Klopp a couple of seasons back. Was really hard for them, but they achieved top 4. Their football was nowhere near as good, they scraped results together. The coach rallied them. They had no centre backs, Fabinho (their best midfielder/DM/anchor of the side) was playing there instead, Alisson was crocked. They also had other injuries.

We had more than some poor results. We started the season off with a 'meh' draw to Leicester then battered an absolutely shite Everton before back to back 'big game' losses to Woolwich and Newcastle. Then we had an awful Palace result, beat City but then lost to fucking Ipswich at home (remains their only away win all season) and even prior to major injury issues the Fulham, Roma, Bournemouth performances etc were fucking crap. This was with a couple of defensive injuries, not some unprecedented club crisis. Before that point we'd only had one truly impressive win in our season: The city game.

They're 2nd. They finished 2nd with injuries. And Arteta does still get criticised correctly. And of course Saka makes up a 'spine' ffs - he carries their offensive threat entirely !!

Yeah the issue is we were underwhelming pre injuries and disastrous with injuries. This season was meant to be the one we built on finishing 5th. We had a terrible finish to last season under Ange (with no injuries + one game a week) and then a 'meh' start to this season. We then had some adversity and collapsed. That's such an extended period of being either meh or total rubbish that its totally understandable people doubt him, or don't buy the whole "just let him get the players back" stuff.

I have no doubt we will finish the season better with some players back. I'm not seeing the 'football' improve much (Brentford and Utd were crap footballing performances and Ipswich wasn't that much better until late) but results are happening which is always the priority. I do have doubts we will ever be the team we were promised under Ange or build on a 5th placed start, with or without injuries.
 
Challenge in this context means more being up there in the same vein we were under Poch than anything else. Unlike others, despite the financial power of this league I don't think it is very strong currently. Chelsea have a lot of cash but their team is horrendously weak and imbalanced, Liverpool have a strong XI but their depth is actually pretty poor, City are about to embark on a huge rebuild and United are a mess. Woolwich are just a decent, competent team and sit 2nd ffs - without Saka the forward line is barely top half quality. The likes of Bournemouth, Forest, Newcastle are all up there challenging on a good level.

Liverpool next season lose Salah and Trent. Maybe VVD. And they have penny pinching wanker owners of their own. We have lots of gap with FFP, loads of wages saved. A reasonably high profile, demanding coach who demands backing and isn't just lucky/happy to be here genuinely could have an opportunity as we will probably be playing one game a week next season, just like we were under Ange first season. Big advantage.
Do you think Iraola could be the right man next season or who's your preference? I think we are laying good foundations to be in the mix in the next 2/3 years but not convinced Ange is the man to take us beyond this season
 
Challenge in this context means more being up there in the same vein we were under Poch than anything else. Unlike others, despite the financial power of this league I don't think it is very strong currently. Chelsea have a lot of cash but their team is horrendously weak and imbalanced, Liverpool have a strong XI but their depth is actually pretty poor, City are about to embark on a huge rebuild and United are a mess. Woolwich are just a decent, competent team and sit 2nd ffs - without Saka the forward line is barely top half quality. The likes of Bournemouth, Forest, Newcastle are all up there challenging on a good level.

Liverpool next season lose Salah and Trent. Maybe VVD. And they have penny pinching wanker owners of their own. We have lots of gap with FFP, loads of wages saved. A reasonably high profile, demanding coach who demands backing and isn't just lucky/happy to be here genuinely could have an opportunity as we will probably be playing one game a week next season, just like we were under Ange first season. Big advantage.
We’ve seen how “demanding” coaches work here under Levy. It’s a disaster, and pretty soon they are going through the motions or throwing their toys out of the pram. The only way it works under him is catching a coach on their way up like Poch or one who’s been overlooked for big jobs and has something to prove like Harry and Ange maybe.
 
We’ve seen how “demanding” coaches work here under Levy. It’s a disaster, and pretty soon they are going through the motions or throwing their toys out of the pram. The only way it works under him is catching a coach on their way up like Poch or one who’s been overlooked for big jobs and has something to prove like Harry and Ange maybe.

We tried coaches who were demanding but also massive dickheads who played a style of football which was never going to work as soon as results turned. I'm not sure you have to manage all three.

I wouldn't mind a Poch clone in Iraola who has proven himself in this league and would easily get another premier league job if it didn't work out here.
 
Who is brushing it off? Its football.
Just about everyone who claims the injuries are not an excuse.
Liverpool lost their entire spine under Klopp a couple of seasons back. Was really hard for them, but they achieved top 4. Their football was nowhere near as good, they scraped results together. The coach rallied them. They had no centre backs, Fabinho (their best midfielder/DM/anchor of the side) was playing there instead, Alisson was crocked. They also had other injuries.
Mate, seriously? A couple of seasons back they lost VVD to his ACL injury. Alisson was out for 1 game. Konate and Jota were their longest injuries at 13 and 18 games respectively. Apart from VVD, the longest injury any of the rest of their "spine" suffered was 5 games. All their other injuries were to secondary players like Ramsey, Jones and Oxlade Chamberlaine. You might include Diaz, who was a new signing or Matip, but as part of their spine? Not a chance.

We had more than some poor results. We started the season off with a 'meh' draw to Leicester then battered an absolutely shite Everton before back to back 'big game' losses to Woolwich and Newcastle.
Both of those were close run games. That happens at the top of the table you know. Fine margins against teams a fair bit further along in their development than us.
Then we had an awful Palace result, beat City but then lost to fucking Ipswich at home (remains their only away win all season)
No argument there, Palace we were powder puff and Ipswich really made me angry. I've never offered an excuse for them.
and even prior to major injury issues the Fulham, Roma, Bournemouth performances etc were fucking crap. This was with a couple of defensive injuries, not some unprecedented club crisis. Before that point we'd only had one truly impressive win in our season: The city game.
No, not particularly impressive, but hardly disastrous. 2 draws and a loss. What happened after them though is what I was talking about. The injuries mounted up with another long term injury virtually every game after that. That's when the wheels fell off and the relegation form started. Before then, the complaint was consistency. You don't find consistency when the treatment table has more players than the training pitch.
They're 2nd. They finished 2nd with injuries. And Arteta does still get criticised correctly. And of course Saka makes up a 'spine' ffs - he carries their offensive threat entirely !!
Saka is a winger. You've got a bad case of scoliosis if your spine includes your wings! Either that or you don't have a firm grasp of what entails the spine of a team.
Yeah the issue is we were underwhelming pre injuries and disastrous with injuries. This season was meant to be the one we built on finishing 5th. We had a terrible finish to last season under Ange (with no injuries + one game a week) and then a 'meh' start to this season. We then had some adversity and collapsed. That's such an extended period of being either meh or total rubbish that its totally understandable people doubt him, or don't buy the whole "just let him get the players back" stuff.
I've never really argued against that viewpoint, it has merit. However, citing the extreme adverse circumstances as a big part of the reason has just as much merit. The problem here is that whilst there are those that can accept the former, there's a large contingent that refuse to accept the latter.
I have no doubt we will finish the season better with some players back. I'm not seeing the 'football' improve much (Brentford and Utd were crap footballing performances and Ipswich wasn't that much better until late) but results are happening which is always the priority.
You don't suddenly start playing champagne Football when you come out of a losing slump, of course the performances left much to be desired. You have to build on that and the Football gradually improves. That's simply a fact.
I do have doubts we will ever be the team we were promised under Ange or build on a 5th placed start, with or without injuries.
I feel you, I really do. It's been a hugely depressing season. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that we haven't really had the opportunity to see what we're capable of with a settled team. Someone posted on here earlier about the multiple combinations we've been forced to play because of our injury issues. You can maintain momentum if you're losing the odd player in certain positions, your bit about the filth reinforces that, but lose key players long term, then see their replacements lost long term, being forced to play youngsters in positions they're not used to (Christ, Gray has played in every position across the back and he's a midfielder), and all whilst playing a game every 3 days for months?

Frankly, I'm amazed that this is so hard to see.

Then again, this is TFC, so it's not that amazing really.
 
I just think with Ange towards end of season we have chelsea away and liverpool away. We roll over to them again with a fully fit squad without making a fist of it were wasting our time with him another season. Lost 3 straight NLD, 3 x chelsea and hes made ordinary managers look good. Winning europa league is his saving grace imo.
 
Just about everyone who claims the injuries are not an excuse.

Mate, seriously? A couple of seasons back they lost VVD to his ACL injury. Alisson was out for 1 game. Konate and Jota were their longest injuries at 13 and 18 games respectively. Apart from VVD, the longest injury any of the rest of their "spine" suffered was 5 games. All their other injuries were to secondary players like Ramsey, Jones and Oxlade Chamberlaine. You might include Diaz, who was a new signing or Matip, but as part of their spine? Not a chance.


Both of those were close run games. That happens at the top of the table you know. Fine margins against teams a fair bit further along in their development than us.

No argument there, Palace we were powder puff and Ipswich really made me angry. I've never offered an excuse for them.

No, not particularly impressive, but hardly disastrous. 2 draws and a loss. What happened after them though is what I was talking about. The injuries mounted up with another long term injury virtually every game after that. That's when the wheels fell off and the relegation form started. Before then, the complaint was consistency. You don't find consistency when the treatment table has more players than the training pitch.

Saka is a winger. You've got a bad case of scoliosis if your spine includes your wings! Either that or you don't have a firm grasp of what entails the spine of a team.

I've never really argued against that viewpoint, it has merit. However, citing the extreme adverse circumstances as a big part of the reason has just as much merit. The problem here is that whilst there are those that can accept the former, there's a large contingent that refuse to accept the latter.

You don't suddenly start playing champagne Football when you come out of a losing slump, of course the performances left much to be desired. You have to build on that and the Football gradually improves. That's simply a fact.

I feel you, I really do. It's been a hugely depressing season. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that we haven't really had the opportunity to see what we're capable of with a settled team. Someone posted on here earlier about the multiple combinations we've been forced to play because of our injury issues. You can maintain momentum if you're losing the odd player in certain positions, your bit about the filth reinforces that, but lose key players long term, then see their replacements lost long term, being forced to play youngsters in positions they're not used to (Christ, Gray has played in every position across the back and he's a midfielder), and all whilst playing a game every 3 days for months?

Frankly, I'm amazed that this is so hard to see.

Then again, this is TFC, so it's not that amazing really.

Yeah, they're not an excuse for how bad we've been, because nothing could excuse it. The injuries explain us not being at our best, they don't excuse dropping as low as 16th (!!!) in the table. Especially when our injury crisis wasn't at its height for the whole season - we simply didn't do enough before that either.

Yeah they had no defence mate. Not sure what you remember. They lost the best defender on the planet and both partners (matip and konate) and were forced to play Nat Phillips or Williams (now of the VERY lower leagues) as a result. For a very extended period.

Yeah it just happened to happen to us back to back. Newcastle further ahead in development? They were below us last season and Howe could barely spend due to FFP. Jesus. Maybe if accompanied by winning games we should win it would be fine.

Yeah the reality is that at no point this season were we looking impressive with any consistency in the league. Even when we were fit. We were also god awful at the end of last season. So that's a really extended period of being not that good, hence a loss of faith...

You referred to him with whole "Not even part of spine" thing as if losing a Saka isn't as bad as losing a CB. It is demonstrably worse - any team would take a Gabriel injury over a Saka injury. They also have both strikers out and both left wingers and right wing alternative out.

I accept that we wouldn't ever have been 16th without an injury crisis - I just don't ever accept it for an excuse for how bad it got, and have not been impressed by Ange's Spurs for a very, very long time.

We haven't played 'champagne football' since his first 10 matches so you might be waiting longer than that.

We had a settled team. It won a game then lost a game. We had a settled team at the back end of last season. It lost every big match at the end of the season and looked shattered despite only one match of football a week. What am I putting faith in here that we will be mega great when players are all fit?

Its easy to see - some people put faith in Ange and want to fall back on the injuries, other people lost faith BEFORE the injuries (or had shaken faith) anyway. I fall in to the latter camp.
 
The chart in this article really illustrates how naive Ange is and why he has to take most of the blame for our squad being devastated by injuries and fatigue:


The amount of running he is asking our players to do is insane, especially considering our fixture schedule and the small number of players who have been available. To maintain those numbers despite having half a squad, it’s no surprise the players looked dead on their feet and kept getting re-injured. You cannot ask a small group of players to run like that every 3 days.
 
The chart in this article really illustrates how naive Ange is and why he has to take most of the blame for our squad being devastated by injuries and fatigue:


The amount of running he is asking our players to do is insane, especially considering our fixture schedule and the small number of players who have been available. To maintain those numbers despite having half a squad, it’s no surprise the players looked dead on their feet and kept getting re-injured. You cannot ask a small group of players to run like that every 3 days.
Don't you know the drill? Facts that support ( what by his own admission is attritional football ) don't count. Only stats that say X other team presses more. Or some complete random at another club tearing his hamstring mean anything.
 
Yeah, they're not an excuse for how bad we've been, because nothing could excuse it. The injuries explain us not being at our best, they don't excuse dropping as low as 16th (!!!) in the table. Especially when our injury crisis wasn't at its height for the whole season - we simply didn't do enough before that either.

Yeah they had no defence mate. Not sure what you remember. They lost the best defender on the planet and both partners (matip and konate) and were forced to play Nat Phillips or Williams (now of the VERY lower leagues) as a result. For a very extended period.

Yeah it just happened to happen to us back to back. Newcastle further ahead in development? They were below us last season and Howe could barely spend due to FFP. Jesus. Maybe if accompanied by winning games we should win it would be fine.

Yeah the reality is that at no point this season were we looking impressive with any consistency in the league. Even when we were fit. We were also god awful at the end of last season. So that's a really extended period of being not that good, hence a loss of faith...

You referred to him with whole "Not even part of spine" thing as if losing a Saka isn't as bad as losing a CB. It is demonstrably worse - any team would take a Gabriel injury over a Saka injury. They also have both strikers out and both left wingers and right wing alternative out.

I accept that we wouldn't ever have been 16th without an injury crisis - I just don't ever accept it for an excuse for how bad it got, and have not been impressed by Ange's Spurs for a very, very long time.

We haven't played 'champagne football' since his first 10 matches so you might be waiting longer than that.

We had a settled team. It won a game then lost a game. We had a settled team at the back end of last season. It lost every big match at the end of the season and looked shattered despite only one match of football a week. What am I putting faith in here that we will be mega great when players are all fit?

Its easy to see - some people put faith in Ange and want to fall back on the injuries, other people lost faith BEFORE the injuries (or had shaken faith) anyway. I fall in to the latter camp.
I wish you stood up for Spurs the same way you stand up for Woolwich 🙈
 
It's the amount of injuries weve had under him that's concerned me the most. Too kamikaze as well. We always look like were going to concede under him as well
yeah he has to finish the season dramatically strong to get next season now. I'm not convinced.

Glad he's got his players back and gets a fair shot at it though. Would have been a mess replacing him while half the squad were unavailable. Would have just left more questions than answers and given the new manager a poison chalice!
 
Lol at him. How about just sound out to the coaches or Ange and let them know it will be the best of everyone if he can play 15-20 minutes less every game if he's so not 100%? So you know Moore can play too?

Rocket science? Ffs! Beyond beliefs. Thats why I am no longer trusting on Ange and the coaching team for long term after this season. How would they have not seen this problem but constantly playing him to the ground?
Ange would rather flog kulu even when playing crap than give Moore minutes.
 
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