• The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Player Archie Gray

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

What was Busquets doing at 18?

You never know how a young player will work out but id be shocked if Gray doesn’t end up England’s starting #6 one day.

People are acting like we are fucking him up by giving him minutes at FB/CB. I’m pretty sure Rice was still a CB at 18. If he was playing this level at all.

No idea. But I'd seriously doubt Gray ends up as good as Busquets because that's not how talent development works.

Development of young players isn't linear. Gray is doing brilliantly and is well ahead of the curve. Happy to just let him get games (hopefully more in his actual position) and hopefully continues to progress. I definitely wouldn't be shocked if he didn't end up as England's 6 because a million things could change between now and then and he's very far off it.
 
No idea. But I'd seriously doubt Gray ends up as good as Busquets because that's not how talent development works.

Development of young players isn't linear. Gray is doing brilliantly and is well ahead of the curve. Happy to just let him get games (hopefully more in his actual position) and hopefully continues to progress. I definitely wouldn't be shocked if he didn't end up as England's 6 because a million things could change between now and then and he's very far off it.
The biggest thing about elite talent development is physicality. When you have kids like Gray and Bergvall who can hack it physically already at 18, then it’s technical ability, attitude and intelligence. Little bit of opportunity and luck mixed in.


Gray is ahead of the curve on pretty much all of those. It’s never certain but as far as talent ID can go, he’s got as good a chance as any other young English CM.
 
Still a few TFC posters around who seem to think players are born to only play one position, and the coach should only play them in that position, so thought it might be worth a reminder of other Spurs players :

Firstly Martin Jol, then manager of Ajax, inherited a central midfielder who he thought would be an even better centre back. He became such a good centre back that Spurs bought Jan Vertonghen, who whilst at Spurs became recognised as one of the best centre backs in Europe, particularly when looked at a pairing with Toby Alderweireld.

Belgium (one of the top teams in europe at that time) were over endowed with centre backs, so Spurs top centre backs were played as full backs - Jan Vertonghen as LB and Toby Alderweireld as RB for a couple of years.

Spurs very occasionally used Jan as LB, most spectacularly v Borussia Dortmund where Vertonghen started as CB and Ben Davies as LB, but without Dortmund noticing they changed position at HT. Vertonghen totally destroyed Dortmund down the left hand side scoring a magnificent goal and getting an assist as Spurs scored 3 second half goals. MOTM for a totally unexpected and game changing performance at LB.

And Ben did alright as CB having started at LB as well.

So Vertonghen played in top teams in central midfield, centre back and left back - although we tend to remember him only as a top class centre back.

Not to mention Alderweireld as CB and RB or Ben Davies (always LCB in over 90 appearances for Wales) as CB and LB.

Secondly Martin Jol when Fulham manager inherited a very low scoring centre forward in Moussa Dembele who he persuaded to drop back into Centre Midfield at about aged 23.

I think we'd all agree Dembele's ability to keep the ball whilst progressing it up the field made him almost a unique player in world football - I'm not sure I've seen anyone come even close.

So feel sorry for fans at his previous clubs who saw a striker who was pretty mediocre. And praise Martin Jol for persuading the player to change.


I see an Archie Gray who was very good for Leeds youth in central midfield, who due to Leeds having 2 injured RB's (including Spence on loan) took a chance and with Gray making his first team debut at RB where he totally made the position his own for season 23/ 24 - I think he played LB a couple of times but not sure he ever played DM. Spurs bought the 18 year old as we could see a top prospect versatile enough to play in at least 2 positions.

Gray has excelled himself in playing not only RB but also CB (which is actually reasonably similar to DM) when we have needed cover in those positions due to injury. I'm sure he's earned a lot of credit 'in the bank' at Spurs for his willingness to play in different positions and will get his chance to play DM, quite possibly in the 2nd half of the season assuming injuries allow. Worst case is he ends up like Paul Madeley under Don Revie (and alongside Eddie Gray , Archie's great uncle) - who played in pretty much every outfield position on the pitch although best known as a defender, and good enough to play for England in probably 6 or 7 different positions as well as winning several first division titles due to his versatility. I hated Leeds at that time as they were a dirty side, but utmost respect for Madeley who you never knew where he was going to play .... and Eddie was a great winger

Gray has all the attributes to be a star player : lets see in which position or positions !
 
Last edited:
Still a few TFC posters around who seem to think players are born to only play one position, and the coach should only play them in that position, so thought it might be worth a reminder of other Spurs players :

Firstly Martin Jol, then manager of Ajax, inherited a central midfielder who he thought would be an even better centre back. He became such a good centre back that Spurs bought Jan Vertonghen, who whilst at Spurs became recognised as one of the best centre backs in Europe, particularly when looked at a pairing with Toby Alderweireld.

Belgium (one of the top teams in europe at that time) were over endowed with centre backs, so Spurs top centre backs were played as full backs - Jan Vertonghen as LB and Toby Alderweireld as RB for a couple of years.

Spurs very occasionally used Jan as LB, most spectacularly v Borussia Dortmund where Vertonghen started as CB and Ben Davies as LB, but without Dortmund noticing they changed position at HT. Vertonghen totally destroyed Dortmund down the left hand side scoring a magnificent goal and getting an assist as Spurs scored 3 second half goals. MOTM for a totally unexpected and game changing performance at LB.

And Ben did alright as CB having started at LB as well.

So Vertonghen played in top teams in central midfield, centre back and left back - although we tend to remember him only as a top class centre back.

Not to mention Alderweireld as CB and RB or Ben Davies (always LCB in over 90 appearances for Wales) as CB and LB.

Secondly Martin Jol when Fulham manager inherited a very low scoring centre forward in Moussa Dembele who he persuaded to drop back into Centre Midfield at about aged 23.

I think we'd all agree Dembele's ability to keep the ball whilst progressing it up the field made him almost a unique player in world football - I'm not sure I've seen anyone come even close.

So feel sorry for fans at his previous clubs who saw a striker who was pretty mediocre. And praise Martin Jol for persuading the player to change.


I see an Archie Gray who was very good for Leeds youth in central midfield, who due to Leeds having 2 injured RB's (including Spence on loan) took a chance and with Gray making his first team debut at RB where he totally made the position his own for season 23/ 24 - I think he played LB a couple of times but not sure he ever played DM. Spurs bought the 18 year old as we could see a top prospect versatile enough to play in at least 2 positions.

Gray has excelled himself in playing not only RB but also CB (which is actually reasonably similar to DM) when we have needed cover in those positions due to injury. I'm sure he's earned a lot of credit 'in the bank' at Spurs for his willingness to play in different positions and will get his chance to play DM, quite possibly in the 2nd half of the season assuming injuries allow. Worst case is he ends up like Paul Madeley under Don Revie (and alongside Eddie Gray , Archie's great uncle) - who played in pretty much every outfield position on the pitch although best known as a defender, and good enough to play for England in probably 6 or 7 different positions as well as winning several first division titles due to his versatility. I hated Leeds at that time as they were a dirty side, but utmost respect for Madeley who you never knew where he was going to play .... and Eddie was a great winger

Gray has all the attributes to be a star player : lets see in which position or positions !
So what you’re saying is we need BMJ back?
 
He’s not a punt . Obviously a top class player who will take Bissoumas place next season, if not sooner.
Gray is a punt plus plus - since he hadn’t started a single game in the EPL when we got him in the summer. He’s not a punt punt like Oddobert or Bergvall but he’s still a punt. He’s certainly not an established player - He’s a punt that hopefully comes good. You can tell by the wages.

Buying established players and paying them established player wages isn’t Levy’s style (unless he think he thinks he’s taking advantage of relegation side Leceiater/Maddison).

Wages:

Punt Plus Plus

Gray - 75K per week

Straight Punts

Oddobert - 25K per week
Bergvall - 15 per week

Best Chairman in the Galaxy

125K per week
 
Last edited:
Gray is a punt plus - since he hadn’t started a single game in the EPL when we got him in the summer. He’s not a punt punt like Oddobert or Bergvall but he’s still a punt. He’s certainly not an established player - but he’s a punt that hopefully comes good. You can tell by the wages.

Buying established players and paying them established player wages isn’t Levy’s style (unless he think he’s taking advantage of relegation side Leceiater/Maddison).

Wages:

Punt Plus

Gray - 75K per week

Straight Punts

Oddobert - 25K per week
Bergvall - 15 per week

Best Chairman in the Galaxy

125K per week

Your definition that he's a punt as he's never started in PL is rubbish - lots of players are bought from overseas leagues and are not punts.

The Championship is in the top 6 or 10 leagues in the world , so players from Championship rank well up with players from many leagues such as Netherlands for example. And Vertonghen from Ajax was not a bad player just to give you one example. And neither was Chelsea's Palmer - plucked from Man City u21 squad and never played in PL before his move to Chelsea but possibly Chelsea's player of the year
 
Gray is a punt plus plus - since he hadn’t started a single game in the EPL when we got him in the summer. He’s not a punt punt like Oddobert or Bergvall but he’s still a punt. He’s certainly not an established player - He’s a punt that hopefully comes good. You can tell by the wages.

Buying established players and paying them established player wages isn’t Levy’s style (unless he think he thinks he’s taking advantage of relegation side Leceiater/Maddison).

Wages:

Punt Plus Plus

Gray - 75K per week

Straight Punts

Oddobert - 25K per week
Bergvall - 15 per week

Best Chairman in the Galaxy

125K per week


confused ryan reynolds GIF
 
sadly retired now

but certainly he left as Spurs manager at least a year too soon imo - but majority of Spurs fans wanted him out as he wasn't bringing instant success (even though his 2 5th places were Spurs best placing in almost 20 years back in about 2005), they didn'' like his subs ..........

I was sad when he left and angry at the way he was sacked.

He brought us back to Europe after being in mid table for so many seasons.
 
Your definition that he's a punt as he's never started in PL is rubbish - lots of players are bought from overseas leagues and are not punts.

The Championship is in the top 6 or 10 leagues in the world , so players from Championship rank well up with players from many leagues such as Netherlands for example. And Vertonghen from Ajax was not a bad player just to give you one example. And neither was Chelsea's Palmer - plucked from Man City u21 squad and never played in PL before his move to Chelsea but possibly

Your definition that he's a punt as he's never started in PL is rubbish - lots of players are bought from overseas leagues and are not punts.

The Championship is in the top 6 or 10 leagues in the world , so players from Championship rank well up with players from many leagues such as Netherlands for example. And Vertonghen from Ajax was not a bad player just to give you one example. And neither was Chelsea's Palmer - plucked from Man City u21 squad and never played in PL before his move to Chelsea but possibly Chelsea's player of the year
Palmer made 19 Premier League appearances for City and played 8 times in the Champions League. At any team but City, Palmer is in a starting 11 a couple of years earlier. I know it’s a nitpick and I get your point but couldn’t resist.


Anyway how dare you impugn the honor of my definition sir!!! 🤣 🤣. It’s just a definition so agree to disagree.

Anyway Gray is one for the future - hopefully a very bright future - But today he is our backup right back, 3rd choice DM and 5th choice center back. For 18, he’s really good but I’m grumpy because we needed more that one player this summer that was part of our best 11 … I understand a Big 6 team should be able to buy multiple players for the future and their best 11 but that’s not how things are under our current ownership …
 
Back
Top