Conte: winners and losers

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Guido 🇺🇦

"Legacy Fan"
Well if he's not for walking can he kindly adjust the tactics that have seen us overran for the past few games.
I hate all this "walking" bullshit. It's a narrative being driven by those that just expect 20 new signings each and every transfer window.

I get a manager getting it wrong, it happens.

I also think right up to the Chelsea games he's done a fantastic job, getting to grips with the squad, literally transforming the fundamentals and clearly having a team showing some repeatable patterns in our play from back to front (not always slick, not always pretty but genuine green shoots were there for all to see). I wasn't expecting us to beat Chelsea, even if they were really struggling prior to playing us but I was expecting us to perform. I was expecting Conte not to get outcoached 3 games on the trot!

I simply can't get my head around why he persists with a system where we've been clearly struggling under, where in every game we play it with not been the best team. Who, when the line-up was announced today, thought great a 3-4-2 we're gonna smash them?

It took him 1 and a half games when he was at Chelsea for him to ditch a particular system when he realised his player's profile weren't going to be able to play the way he wanted! Nah, not at Tottenham, he just sticks with it, over and over and over whilst we all watch the same performance repeat itself.

Today was always going to be a tough game, Wolves are a good side and Large has got them playing better than at any time under Nuno. But I knew with absolute certainty as saw that team announced that we were going to look shit regardless of the result.

Today and against Southampton have been as bad as anything served up under Nuno!

Maybe, he's doing this as a long term thing, and he feels he has to stick with this because of what he has planned for next season or something, but really I doubt that. It's just shite.

And finally, has he helped build the confidence of the team? This is also down to him, we look passive in periods again, individual confidence is low. Players are not sure where they should be, all the patterns of play have evaporated. This is a massive part of management.

He is a wonderful coach, this isn't in any doubt but right now I think he's been consistently outcoached, bottom line test is that our performances haven't improved, they've declined!
 
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I hate all this "walking" bullshit. It's a narrative being driven by those that just expect 20 new signings each and every transfer window.

I get a manager getting it wrong, it happens.

I also think right up to the Chelsea games he's done a fantastic job, getting to grips with the squad, literally transforming the fundamentals and clearly having a team showing some repeatable patterns in our play from back to front (not always slick, not always pretty but genuine green shoots were there for all to see). I wasn't expecting us to beat Chelsea, even if they were really struggling prior to playing us but I was expecting us to perform. I was expecting Conte not to get outcoached 3 games on the trot!

I simply can't get my head around why he persists with a system where we've been clearly struggling under, where in every game we play it with not been the best team. Who, when the line-up was announced today, thought great a 3-4-2 we're gonna smash them?

It took him 1 and a half games for him to ditch a particular system when he realised his player's profile weren't going to be able to play the way he wanted! Nah, not at Tottenham, he just sticks with it, over and over and over whilst we all watch the same performance repeat itself.

Today was always going to be a tough game, Wolves are a good side and Large has got them playing better than at any time under Nuno. But I knew with absolute certainty as saw that team announced that we were going to look shit regardless of the result.

Today and against Southampton have been as bad as anything served up under Nuno!

Maybe, he's doing this as a long term thing, and he feels he has to stick with this because of what he has planned for next season or something, but really I doubt that. It's just shite.

And finally, has he helped build the confidence of the team? This is also down to him, we look passive in periods again, individual confidence is low. Players are not sure where they should be, all the patterns of play have evaporated. This is a massive part of management.

He is a wonderful coach, this isn't in any doubt but right now I think he's been consistently outcoached, bottom line test is that our performances haven't improved, they've declined!

I will come back to this but good post.
 
I hate all this "walking" bullshit. It's a narrative being driven by those that just expect 20 new signings each and every transfer window.

I get a manager getting it wrong, it happens.

I also think right up to the Chelsea games he's done a fantastic job, getting to grips with the squad, literally transforming the fundamentals and clearly having a team showing some repeatable patterns in our play from back to front (not always slick, not always pretty but genuine green shoots were there for all to see). I wasn't expecting us to beat Chelsea, even if they were really struggling prior to playing us but I was expecting us to perform. I was expecting Conte not to get outcoached 3 games on the trot!

I simply can't get my head around why he persists with a system where we've been clearly struggling under, where in every game we play it with not been the best team. Who, when the line-up was announced today, thought great a 3-4-2 we're gonna smash them?

It took him 1 and a half games for him to ditch a particular system when he realised his player's profile weren't going to be able to play the way he wanted! Nah, not at Tottenham, he just sticks with it, over and over and over whilst we all watch the same performance repeat itself.

Today was always going to be a tough game, Wolves are a good side and Large has got them playing better than at any time under Nuno. But I knew with absolute certainty as saw that team announced that we were going to look shit regardless of the result.

Today and against Southampton have been as bad as anything served up under Nuno!

Maybe, he's doing this as a long term thing, and he feels he has to stick with this because of what he has planned for next season or something, but really I doubt that. It's just shite.

And finally, has he helped build the confidence of the team? This is also down to him, we look passive in periods again, individual confidence is low. Players are not sure where they should be, all the patterns of play have evaporated. This is a massive part of management.

He is a wonderful coach, this isn't in any doubt but right now I think he's been consistently outcoached, bottom line test is that our performances haven't improved, they've declined!
Great post.
 
Great post.
It's a good and very fair post, but it's not us who have made Conte out as the raison d'etre of the club. It's Levy and the club's communication channels that have made him out as the savior and star of the piece.

That's not totally uncommon with managers, but when we'll never attract someone of his prominence again if this falls apart it puts a weird spin on things.
 
It's a good and very fair post, but it's not us who have made Conte out as the raison d'etre of the club. It's Levy and the club's communication channels that have made him out as the savior and star of the piece.

That's not totally uncommon with managers, but when we'll never attract someone of his prominence again if this falls apart it puts a weird spin on things.
We turned down a far better fit for the club when we turned down Ten Hag.

A manager who plays gorgeous attractive football, who develops players and isn't afraid to drop experienced players and bring in youngsters.

The thing is, if Conte fails, we're likely to be in a position we haven't been in for the last 20 years or so.
 
I hate all this "walking" bullshit. It's a narrative being driven by those that just expect 20 new signings each and every transfer window.

I get a manager getting it wrong, it happens.

I also think right up to the Chelsea games he's done a fantastic job, getting to grips with the squad, literally transforming the fundamentals and clearly having a team showing some repeatable patterns in our play from back to front (not always slick, not always pretty but genuine green shoots were there for all to see). I wasn't expecting us to beat Chelsea, even if they were really struggling prior to playing us but I was expecting us to perform. I was expecting Conte not to get outcoached 3 games on the trot!

I simply can't get my head around why he persists with a system where we've been clearly struggling under, where in every game we play it with not been the best team. Who, when the line-up was announced today, thought great a 3-4-2 we're gonna smash them?

It took him 1 and a half games when he was at Chelsea for him to ditch a particular system when he realised his player's profile weren't going to be able to play the way he wanted! Nah, not at Tottenham, he just sticks with it, over and over and over whilst we all watch the same performance repeat itself.

Today was always going to be a tough game, Wolves are a good side and Large has got them playing better than at any time under Nuno. But I knew with absolute certainty as saw that team announced that we were going to look shit regardless of the result.

Today and against Southampton have been as bad as anything served up under Nuno!

Maybe, he's doing this as a long term thing, and he feels he has to stick with this because of what he has planned for next season or something, but really I doubt that. It's just shite.

And finally, has he helped build the confidence of the team? This is also down to him, we look passive in periods again, individual confidence is low. Players are not sure where they should be, all the patterns of play have evaporated. This is a massive part of management.

He is a wonderful coach, this isn't in any doubt but right now I think he's been consistently outcoached, bottom line test is that our performances haven't improved, they've declined!

Absolutely spot on mate. Well said
 

Igula

#1 Supporter of Mason's Mates
We turned down a far better fit for the club when we turned down Ten Hag.

A manager who plays gorgeous attractive football, who develops players and isn't afraid to drop experienced players and bring in youngsters.

The thing is, if Conte fails, we're likely to be in a position we haven't been in for the last 20 years or so.

I know reports may have said that we turned down Ten Hag but I doubt that he would have come because no chance Levy lets him run the club the way he wants.
 
I know reports may have said that we turned down Ten Hag but I doubt that he would have come because no chance Levy lets him run the club the way he wants.
He entered into negotiations, Levy said he made a "bad first impression"

I heard thats because he wanted to sell Kane to build his team, a younger more mobile team with players who could rotate position.
 

Igula

#1 Supporter of Mason's Mates
He entered into negotiations, Levy said he made a "bad first impression"

I heard thats because he wanted to sell Kane to build his team, a younger more mobile team with players who could rotate position.

Yes that is what I mean, when it came down to it Levy wouldn't let him make decisions he wanted so I doubt he ever would have come in the end.
 

Guido 🇺🇦

"Legacy Fan"
We turned down a far better fit for the club when we turned down Ten Hag.

A manager who plays gorgeous attractive football, who develops players and isn't afraid to drop experienced players and bring in youngsters.

The thing is, if Conte fails, we're likely to be in a position we haven't been in for the last 20 years or so.
With the exception of Juve Conte hasn't got a track record of sticking around at a club for a long time. I'm OK with this. Because of this I don't expect him to be with us for a long time either, again I'm OK with this.

An area where I'm also OK with him has been his record of the clubs he left, in every one of them the team actually improved further on what he had done (Chelsea, Italy & Inter). So, for this reason, I would be hopeful this might happen to us. I think his recruitment is very good and I quite like our recruitment of a much younger profile of player recently (even if they aren't ready yet).

I was very fearful of Jose, I think his recruitment is terrible and he leaves his clubs in complete turmoil and very, very unfit.

Whilst I'm very critical of his recent selections and how we've been outplayed recently this doesn't persuade me about his ability. I think he's a really good appointment. I'm just completely bemused with what I've seen in the last couple of games (and vs Chelsea). I really liked how we played against Brighton, Leicester for instance.

Maybe......hopefully, the past two games just happen whilst we are still transitioning.......:contepray:
 
With the exception of Juve Conte hasn't got a track record of sticking around at a club for a long time. I'm OK with this. Because of this I don't expect him to be with us for a long time either, again I'm OK with this.

An area where I'm also OK with him has been his record of the clubs he left, in every one of them the team actually improved further on what he had done (Chelsea, Italy & Inter). So, for this reason, I would be hopeful this might happen to us. I think his recruitment is very good and I quite like our recruitment of a much younger profile of player recently (even if they aren't ready yet).

I was very fearful of Jose, I think his recruitment is terrible and he leaves his clubs in complete turmoil and very, very unfit.

Whilst I'm very critical of his recent selections and how we've been outplayed recently this doesn't persuade me about his ability. I think he's a really good appointment. I'm just completely bemused with what I've seen in the last couple of games (and vs Chelsea). I really liked how we played against Brighton, Leicester for instance.

Maybe......hopefully, the past two games just happen whilst we are still transitioning.......:contepray:

his transfer record with Chelsea was pretty horrendous. £250million+ and only 3 good signings in that. He also fucked them over by falling out with and selling Costa when they were second in the league and they fell away and missed out on the UCL as we stormed past them.

People forget at Chelsea, he got the job because the players had fallen out with Jose, the same players who won the league and League cup 5 months earlier, so no question he had the perfect infrastructure at Chelsea.

He doesn't have it here.
 
It's not strawman at all..... (See below for why.)



My argument is that they'll be better with a third body as they won't be out-numbered buy virtually ever team in the league..... The defense won't find themselves under so much pressure and we might just earn ourselves a little more time with the ball when we win it cos we won't be so easily pressed thanks to the oppo having an extra man in the centre..... In turn we might just get to transition the ball better,

As it is we're putting too much pressure on the WBs even though we know that the RWBs are shite.

If the only argument that people can put forward is that it keeps Lucas in the field the sorry (despite liking Lucas) that ain't enough.


Even with Skipp & Kulu as a 2CM; I still have my doubts.

Be it 352, 433 or 4231 I don't care; the fact remains the same: Without Kante, Dembele or a similar machine of a difference-maker; 2CMs is doomed to fail.
Winks and Hojbjerg are still going to struggle to contribute in a 3 man midfield. The whole point of having 3 up front is because we don’t have the quality to play in midfield. Last thing we want is more time on the ball when the players who would be on it are Winks and Hojbjerg. The 2 in midfield allows us to bypass the shit and try and get one of the front 3 onto it.

In a 3 man midfield, these donkeys will give up more counter attack opportunities due to their lack of ability and we wont get as many chances because the players in question ruin any sort of buildup we try. At least in the 343 there’s a chance one of the forwards will get onto it, in a 352 we will be so easy to defend against.

I personally have seen enough about this lot and believe that there’s nothing to them mentally and technically. That’s 3 managers in a row now that have tried to play longball football because they know that we are lacking quality in the middle. I’m slowly coming to accept that the rest of this season will be an embarrassing limp across the finish line because frankly there’s nothing else the manager can do with what is currently in our squad.
 

Guido 🇺🇦

"Legacy Fan"
his transfer record with Chelsea was pretty horrendous. £250million+ and only 3 good signings in that. He also fucked them over by falling out with and selling Costa when they were second in the league and they fell away and missed out on the UCL as we stormed past them.

People forget at Chelsea, he got the job because the players had fallen out with Jose, the same players who won the league and League cup 5 months earlier, so no question he had the perfect infrastructure at Chelsea.

He doesn't have it here.
I think Chelsea were massively improved by him post Dinosaur.

Perhaps they aren't a good example to use for arguments for or against, they are just weird Club. No Club is operated like them, they are an anomaly.

At his other teams, the evidence is there though.

If I have one concern with him and it's his record playing against teams that are "good" pressing teams. It's not good and the wins he has picked up against these teams were typical lucky wins where the oppo were all over them, pumping loads of shots on their goal and they nick an odd goal on the break (absolutely no masterclass).
 
I detest this rigid application of the 3-4-3/ 3-5-2.
All our wing backs except Reguilon are total shit, and we have to play at least one shit CB as well. It just doesn't work with this squad.
 

Igula

#1 Supporter of Mason's Mates
I detest this rigid application of the 3-4-3/ 3-5-2.
All our wing backs except Reguilon are total shit, and we have to play at least one shit CB as well. It just doesn't work with this squad.

Back 4 doesn’t change that as it means we have shit FBs because our FBs outside of Reguilon are shit.

Plus Davies, Sanchez both much worse in a back 4 than back 3 so you are still getting a shit CB.

And our midfield is shit so having one then replace a CB is just shit for shit.
 

Airfixx

"I brekka yorz back ind make-a yew humbil"
Winks and Hojbjerg are still going to struggle to contribute in a 3 man midfield. The whole point of having 3 up front is because we don’t have the quality to play in midfield. Last thing we want is more time on the ball when the players who would be on it are Winks and Hojbjerg. The 2 in midfield allows us to bypass the shit and try and get one of the front 3 onto it.

Not working though is it......

In a 3 man midfield, these donkeys will give up more counter attack opportunities due to their lack of ability and we wont get as many chances because the players in question ruin any sort of buildup we try. At least in the 343 there’s a chance one of the forwards will get onto it, in a 352 we will be so easy to defend against.

I personally have seen enough about this lot and believe that there’s nothing to them mentally and technically. That’s 3 managers in a row now that have tried to play longball football because they know that we are lacking quality in the middle. I’m slowly coming to accept that the rest of this season will be an embarrassing limp across the finish line because frankly there’s nothing else the manager can do with what is currently in our squad.

Personally; I don't see why Skipp + B'cur + 1 can't help improve things and I'd happily see us play B'cur + PEH + Winks to help prep ourselves for that.... Especially as City will absolutely destroy us if we can't match them man for man when out of possession.
 
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