Defending

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If we are to achieve anything on the pitch then our defending needs to be fixed.

Under 2 managers this season we've shown so many frailties. The players are the common factor. This isn't a thread to lambast and criticise the back 4 only. Our deficiencies start further up the field. We've said so many times we are lacking a DM.

But our defending as a unit is abysmal. From Kane back to Lloris.

Space never scored a goal. So why are we marking space and not players.

No desire from some players to even put effort in to getting back or chasing down the opposition.

How do we fix it beyond just change in personnel. Poch tried 3 at the back. And 4 at the back.

JM has a 4 which changes to a 3 plus Aurier forward. None of it works.

Having Aurier, Sanchez and Sissoko on the same side petrifies me. The left side has conceded goals. Lack of DM not covering, Son falling asleep leaving Davies 2v1.

We defend worse than school team.
 
What's your plan for sorting this defensive shit show.

I'm more interesting for the remaining games and how we set up for next season.

Personally I don't think we can play 3 at the back without quality wing backs.

That means you go with a back 4.

The question remains if you play a 433, 4231 or some other formation. I'd feel more comfortable with a 2 DM's. Obviously we'd have to buy one and use either Skipp/Winks/Dier/Sissoko as the other.
I would love us to buy 2 DM's and let the front 4 play.

Other thing is that the wide players of the 4 attackers don't come back and defend well. Son was a great example yesterday.

For the remaining games I would experiment at RB. Aurier is done now. He gave up for the 2nd goal because he knew he was coming off. KWP has his flaws but I'd rather have him. There is no lack of effort when he plays. He is as good if not better than Aurier going forward.

So I'd trial Sissoko there first. Then Gedson, Dier has played there before for us.

Lloris
Sissoko Toby Dier Davies
GLC Skipp Ndombele
 
Our defence is still flakey so just throw caution to the wind, go all out attack and hope we get more goals. Work on the defence afterwards. Us fans deserve something from this season. I don't want it to end like it's the last year of school ever and the teacher's making us do maths in the final week. No dull experiments. Try and spank the gooners with a high press. Let us have our Nintendo Switch. Entertain.

(yeah, I know...it's Jose...aint gonna happen)
 
After 9 days since the last game I would have expected a much better plan for defending. However it is not just the defence as we did not score until the 90th min which even if we had kept a clean sheet whilst it would have given us a win really the attack was no way good enough. That leaves midfield which is probably where the real problems are in not shielding the defence or setting up the attack. Basically a mess all round.
 
For the remaining games I would experiment at RB. Aurier is done now. He gave up for the 2nd goal because he knew he was coming off. KWP has his flaws but I'd rather have him. There is no lack of effort when he plays. He is as good if not better than Aurier going forward.

So I'd trial Sissoko there first. Then Gedson, Dier has played there before for us.
If he was 3 or 4 years younger (and at that point not one of the best CB's in Europe) I'd give Toby a go at RB.

Fuck knows what we do now though. Lucas playing RWB was desperate. But then I suppose it was a desperate situation. At least José had that excuse, not like when MP played Son at LWB against Chelsea in a cup semi final.

I'd agree though. At the very least let's get KWP back and give him some pre-season games to see if he can inspire confidence in the gaffer.
 
If he was 3 or 4 years younger (and at that point not one of the best CB's in Europe) I'd give Toby a go at RB.

Fuck knows what we do now though. Lucas playing RWB was desperate. But then I suppose it was a desperate situation. At least José had that excuse, not like when MP played Son at LWB against Chelsea in a cup semi final.

I'd agree though. At the very least let's get KWP back and give him some pre-season games to see if he can inspire confidence in the gaffer.
I agree. Toby at RB is possible. He did it for Belgium. But he hasn't got the legs anymore.
So that boat has sailed.

Financially would be better off keeping KWP for next season and spending on a DM. Rather than buy a RB. Aurier can be squad player and if someone like Monaco come for him then get rid.
 
Sanchez seems a better shout out at rb than toby, since he at least has some pace about him. But we tried a back 4 with a lot of CBs and.. it wasn't pretty.

What Might Work is a back 3 with aurier and sessegnon as wing backs.

-----sanchez-toby-vert
Aurier--------------sessegnon

Helps utilize aurier and sessengons strengths without having to remove Son or Berjwin from the lineup to do so, while not relying on them for their shoddy defence.

Then Lo Celso and Sissoko as defensive/central mids and the top 3 kane son berjwin/Lucas.

Could work. If only we had a manager who might ever consider something outside the box.
 
What's your plan for sorting this defensive shit show.

I'm more interesting for the remaining games and how we set up for next season.

Personally I don't think we can play 3 at the back without quality wing backs.

That means you go with a back 4.

The question remains if you play a 433, 4231 or some other formation. I'd feel more comfortable with a 2 DM's. Obviously we'd have to buy one and use either Skipp/Winks/Dier/Sissoko as the other.
I would love us to buy 2 DM's and let the front 4 play.

Other thing is that the wide players of the 4 attackers don't come back and defend well. Son was a great example yesterday.

For the remaining games I would experiment at RB. Aurier is done now. He gave up for the 2nd goal because he knew he was coming off. KWP has his flaws but I'd rather have him. There is no lack of effort when he plays. He is as good if not better than Aurier going forward.

So I'd trial Sissoko there first. Then Gedson, Dier has played there before for us.

Lloris
Sissoko Toby Dier Davies
GLC Skipp Ndombele
4-2-3-1 is fine as long as it’s 4-5-1 when we don’t have the ball.
 
I think the defence is the area that can be improved the most quickly through coaching.

Our defence was WOEFUL under Ardiles.

I remember when Gerry Francis came in, there was a dramatic improvement.

And looking back at our results, the evidence is there.

After conceding four goals in the first game under Francis, things really tightened up and, not long after that, we kept five consecutive clean sheets in the league.

Have we even done that since??

I'm not saying we should reinstate Francis but it proves that a defence can be drilled and disciplined into improving in a very short space of time.
 
We had a rock of a defence for our best two seasons under Poch - how it has fallen.
What I loved about that defence: two excellent CBs at their peak with a great understanding in Toby and Jan; Walker and Rose dominating the flanks with pace - and Rose in particular was good defensively; and Wanyama as a DM roving infront of them and putting out potential fires. We rarely let in goals and this was even with a goalkeeper in Lloris who had a habit of making mistakes. Infact I'd say Lloris was the weakest part of that defence.
The highlight for me was beating Stoke 4-0 at home - I know it was Stoke but defensively Tottenham were completely dominant.
As soon as the defence started to crumble - starting with Wanyama's tragic injury problems - the side started to let in goals and the results became inconsistent. Kane and Son's ability to score goals has masked the issue but there were hardly any clean sheets for the past two and a half seasons.
Now only Toby and Jan remain and it's clear their legs have gone and neither of them has a Ledley King or Richard Gough type natural genius to read the game to make up for this positionally.
Mourinho's response has been indeed to park the bus but they are now unable to fulfil the basics of defence due to players being past it or just not being up to standard.
Maybe we should bring back Ozzie and stick five up front and hope to nip games 9-8.
 
The squad needs massive surgery. No RB back-up so Aurier is likely to start every game. No back-up for Kane has been an issue for years now, yeah he’s our star player but that doesn’t mean he’s untouchable. And obviously no specialized DM, a make shift of two hard working players in Sissoko and Lo Celso who have no idea how to defend doesn’t make the situation better.

Going by goals conceded this season we’re bottom half, even the scum who were laughable at times this season have conceded LESS than us.
 
Eb_YXN5X0AI7Vvm


I think this picture best sums up what's wrong with our defense.

Firstly , Dier is standing infront of everyone , clearly highlighting a lack of communication between him and the rest of the back 4 , we need a leader in there not players playing by themselves on their own instincts.

Next , Where is Serge Aurier? Oh yeah that's right he's nowhere to be seen because he doesn't even play as a RB effectively. Consequently Lo Celso/Sissoko have dropped into the 4 you can see infront of Dier , what does that mean? It means 4 Sheffield United players are left on the edge of the box where Lo Celso/Sissoko should be , if one of them had been there Berge wouldn't have been able to pick up the ball and consequently score.

I've always said we needed a CDM but I feel like any player that plays in that midfield will always be dragged out to the right to cover for Aurier , we cannot continue to play like this where our team is so lob-sided and players are filling in for Aurier half the game. The first thing we have to do is buy an actual RB.

The squad currently has 1 natural RB and 1 Natural LB , that's honestly not good enough.

A lot of these defenders are poor and have regressed but having a CDM and midfield that does it job tracking back all the time , would certainly make the team more solid.

If I was incharge I'd look for a NEW CB , RB , LB and CDM.
 

This image highlights what has been evident for so long, on defence we have
a) terrible positioning,
b) frequently been caught ball watching, and
c) our midfielders often desperately trying to plug gaps they shouldn't have to or aren't capable of,
which in this case left Sander Berge and three other Sheffield players unmarked inside the 18-yard box. We won't remedy those problems with our current personnel, and I especially do not trust Dier and Sanchez together in the short or long term. Ball watching is a concentration problem that many of our players are guilty of - Dier and Sanchez especially. Maybe positioning can be fixed with coaching and tactics, but I think we lack a player who commands the box well, Lloris included, to tell our players who's where and what to do. If we can get that kind of leadership to marshal the team, that would go a long way to improving our defence as a whole.

Assuming we start next year with Jose in charge, the system that requires the least investment would be a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1. Unfortunately, the minimum necessary investment is probably higher than our transfer budget given the current circumstances. As we all know, we need a no-nonsense DM to screen the defensive line, a new LB and RB, and a new CB who can actually marshal the defence especially inside the box. That's easily 150m+. In the unlikely event we get all of that, I think our best team has a CM3 of [new DM], Gio, and Tanguy (obviously many will scoff at this given his perceived 'laziness'), and Stevie, Son, and Kane up front. That would give us defensive stability with 2 CBs and the DM patrolling the back. While defending we could play 4-2-3-1 with Gio sitting in a deep lying playmaker position with the DM to make use of his work rate and allowing Tanguy to sit a bit higher up as an outlet on transition. On attack, Gio moves up alongside Tanguy into a 4-3-3 to thread passes to our quick wide forwards and Harry.
 
Eb_YXN5X0AI7Vvm


I think this picture best sums up what's wrong with our defense.

Firstly , Dier is standing infront of everyone , clearly highlighting a lack of communication between him and the rest of the back 4 , we need a leader in there not players playing by themselves on their own instincts.

Next , Where is Serge Aurier? Oh yeah that's right he's nowhere to be seen because he doesn't even play as a RB effectively. Consequently Lo Celso/Sissoko have dropped into the 4 you can see infront of Dier , what does that mean? It means 4 Sheffield United players are left on the edge of the box where Lo Celso/Sissoko should be , if one of them had been there Berge wouldn't have been able to pick up the ball and consequently score.

I've always said we needed a CDM but I feel like any player that plays in that midfield will always be dragged out to the right to cover for Aurier , we cannot continue to play like this where our team is so lob-sided and players are filling in for Aurier half the game. The first thing we have to do is buy an actual RB.

The squad currently has 1 natural RB and 1 Natural LB , that's honestly not good enough.

A lot of these defenders are poor and have regressed but having a CDM and midfield that does it job tracking back all the time , would certainly make the team more solid.

If I was incharge I'd look for a NEW CB , RB , LB and CDM.
Completely disagree with this!! There is loads wrong with the "defending" but not in how you've described it.

Warning!!! War & Peace incoming:
A bit of housekeeping first - This kind of freeze-frame analysis simply doesn't work as it fails to show where the problem is. To break down the anatomy of this goal you need to go through the entire phase.

The second bit of housekeeping - Aurier IS NOT RB!! He is played as a WB!! His position is in advance of both Sissoko and Lo Celso in the double pivot. This is vital in the analysis of this goal, it's how we are tactically set set-up to play and it shows how Wilder tactically got around it in this goal.

1. The move starts with Aurier pushed up the pitch in his WB role (he is man-marking their LB who's come in narrow, into the inside left position. Sissoko playing in the double pivot with Lo Celso is now occupying the classic RB space.

At this point we are in a 4 made up of Sissoko, Sanchez, Dier and Davies, with Lo Celso in front of back 4. Pan out It's a 7 vs 5 in our favour with us having 5 men behind the ball to Utd's 1.

There is NOTHING wrong with our defenders they are all where they should be and marking/covering who they should.

The problem is in our midfield, Lo Celso is all on his own and his sat too deep and Sissoko is out of position as the RB, he needs to drop and is way, way too wide he's basically out of the game.

THIS IS THE FIRST PROBLEM.

2. Because of Sissoko's position, Lo Celso is completly isolated (Winks has also been in this situation numerous times when he played in the double pivot).

3. Aurier is putting their LB under pressure but he manages to find a ball to Berge who is completely unmarked! Not a single Spurs player within 10yrds!!

THIS IS THE SECOND PROBLEM

It is important at this point to emphasise that this situation is made from not poor individual players not doing their jobs, but a brilliant tactical play by Wilder. This attack has come about by exploiting how Jose uses Aurier as a WB. It isolates one of the two players in the double pivot and to compound this, Lo Celso isn't the player that you want isolated in the double pivot (much like Winks isn't the player you want to be isolated).

4. Utd turn up the threat by switching the play from left to right with unmarked Berge moving the ball swiftly on with his 2nd touch out wide. You can see this is a well-drilled tactical move as Berge doesn't even look up to make the pass, he knows it's already on.

5. In order for Spurs to keep our backline, Son sprints the 15yrds in an attempt to close Berge down. he doesn't get to him in time. This was Son's man, he was late to move into position. Or it could have been Lo Celso's man but my gut tells me it's Son is the logical one because to have both your deep-lying midfielders out the game isn't a Jose thing. But take your pick. I'm going for Son's error, which makes this the FIRST PLAYER ERROR and our THIRD PROBLEM in this attack.

6. Because Son doesn't get to Berge quick enough he slips in a lovely pass out to a wide.
It's still 7 vs 5 in our favour!

7. Davies is now forced to come out to the wide Utd player. This is the correct thing to do for a defender in this position, Son is out of position due to him sprinting to close Berge. IT'S STILL 7 vs 5.

8. As Davies comes across Davies is instantly in trouble as another Utd player joins the attack and overlaps making it a 2 vs 1 against Davies.

9. With Son out of position (central) he now makes another desperate sprint to cover Davies, this is the correct thing to do, all be it let's not lose sight of the fact that we are in the process of Wilder getting the better of Jose tactically here and Son is scrabbling around trying to recover. But by covering Davies Berge is now open and unmarked again (Lo Celso should now be the man alert to this and as the sole deep-lying defender it's now his man).
It's now 7 vs 7!

(it's also worth noting just how good Utd's movement is off the ball here, with the advanced players coming short their number 3, who up to this point has been tracked by Aurier from midfield into the box).

10. Son does NOT get across in time to help out Davies. Davies inevitably loses the 2 vs 1 and the ball get's played behind for the cross to be tee'd up.
It's still 7 vs 7.

11. Let's take a look at the defensive positions just as the cross is about to come in. Dier is perfectly placed!!! He is covering the angle at the near post, stopping a potential shot inside going across the goal to the back post and also cutting out a ball played across the face of the goa AND he has their CF covered. He also isn't blocking Lloris's view and he too is well positions for a ball across the face of goal and a shot at his near post. This is PERFECT!!!

12. Son AGAIN now stops his run to cover Davies and lets the other Utd player in the 2 vs 1 run off him unmarked/challenged and the ball is pulled back to him. But Berge (not picked up by Lo Celso...see point 9 above) takes the ball, turns and scores.

TDLR
Jose's gets fucked in the arse by Wilder.

Wilder brilliantly exposes Jose's use of Aurier as WB, by getting rid of one of the two in the double pivot and isolating the worst of the two defensively.

Throughout this entire attacking phase by Utd our defenders were where they should be. The players exposed were Sissoko, Son and Lo Celso. Although not right positionally as the cover RB (not narrow enough and not inline with other 3, Sissoko is tactically in the ballpark of what is required from him in this system. Lo Celso simply didn't fulfil his role as the loan deep-lying defender (but is he a deep-lying defender, is this why we bought him??). Son as a consequence of Lo Celso too deep got drawn to Berge, he was too late and then in turn out of position to cover Davies and then left his man when ball pulled back.
 
Completely disagree with this!! There is loads wrong with the "defending" but not in how you've described it.

Warning!!! War & Peace incoming:
A bit of housekeeping first - This kind of freeze-frame analysis simply doesn't work as it fails to show where the problem is. To break down the anatomy of this goal you need to go through the entire phase.

The second bit of housekeeping - Aurier IS NOT RB!! He is played as a WB!! His position is in advance of both Sissoko and Lo Celso in the double pivot. This is vital in the analysis of this goal, it's how we are tactically set set-up to play and it shows how Wilder tactically got around it in this goal.

1. The move starts with Aurier pushed up the pitch in his WB role (he is man-marking their LB who's come in narrow, into the inside left position. Sissoko playing in the double pivot with Lo Celso is now occupying the classic RB space.

At this point we are in a 4 made up of Sissoko, Sanchez, Dier and Davies, with Lo Celso in front of back 4. Pan out It's a 7 vs 5 in our favour with us having 5 men behind the ball to Utd's 1.

There is NOTHING wrong with our defenders they are all where they should be and marking/covering who they should.

The problem is in our midfield, Lo Celso is all on his own and his sat too deep and Sissoko is out of position as the RB, he needs to drop and is way, way too wide he's basically out of the game.

THIS IS THE FIRST PROBLEM.

2. Because of Sissoko's position, Lo Celso is completly isolated (Winks has also been in this situation numerous times when he played in the double pivot).

3. Aurier is putting their LB under pressure but he manages to find a ball to Berge who is completely unmarked! Not a single Spurs player within 10yrds!!

THIS IS THE SECOND PROBLEM

It is important at this point to emphasise that this situation is made from not poor individual players not doing their jobs, but a brilliant tactical play by Wilder. This attack has come about by exploiting how Jose uses Aurier as a WB. It isolates one of the two players in the double pivot and to compound this, Lo Celso isn't the player that you want isolated in the double pivot (much like Winks isn't the player you want to be isolated).

4. Utd turn up the threat by switching the play from left to right with unmarked Berge moving the ball swiftly on with his 2nd touch out wide. You can see this is a well-drilled tactical move as Berge doesn't even look up to make the pass, he knows it's already on.

5. In order for Spurs to keep our backline, Son sprints the 15yrds in an attempt to close Berge down. he doesn't get to him in time. This was Son's man, he was late to move into position. Or it could have been Lo Celso's man but my gut tells me it's Son is the logical one because to have both your deep-lying midfielders out the game isn't a Jose thing. But take your pick. I'm going for Son's error, which makes this the FIRST PLAYER ERROR and our THIRD PROBLEM in this attack.

6. Because Son doesn't get to Berge quick enough he slips in a lovely pass out to a wide.
It's still 7 vs 5 in our favour!

7. Davies is now forced to come out to the wide Utd player. This is the correct thing to do for a defender in this position, Son is out of position due to him sprinting to close Berge. IT'S STILL 7 vs 5.

8. As Davies comes across Davies is instantly in trouble as another Utd player joins the attack and overlaps making it a 2 vs 1 against Davies.

9. With Son out of position (central) he now makes another desperate sprint to cover Davies, this is the correct thing to do, all be it let's not lose sight of the fact that we are in the process of Wilder getting the better of Jose tactically here and Son is scrabbling around trying to recover. But by covering Davies Berge is now open and unmarked again (Lo Celso should now be the man alert to this and as the sole deep-lying defender it's now his man).
It's now 7 vs 7!

(it's also worth noting just how good Utd's movement is off the ball here, with the advanced players coming short their number 3, who up to this point has been tracked by Aurier from midfield into the box).

10. Son does NOT get across in time to help out Davies. Davies inevitably loses the 2 vs 1 and the ball get's played behind for the cross to be tee'd up.
It's still 7 vs 7.

11. Let's take a look at the defensive positions just as the cross is about to come in. Dier is perfectly placed!!! He is covering the angle at the near post, stopping a potential shot inside going across the goal to the back post and also cutting out a ball played across the face of the goa AND he has their CF covered. He also isn't blocking Lloris's view and he too is well positions for a ball across the face of goal and a shot at his near post. This is PERFECT!!!

12. Son AGAIN now stops his run to cover Davies and lets the other Utd player in the 2 vs 1 run off him unmarked/challenged and the ball is pulled back to him. But Berge (not picked up by Lo Celso...see point 9 above) takes the ball, turns and scores.

TDLR
Jose's gets fucked in the arse by Wilder.

Wilder brilliantly exposes Jose's use of Aurier as WB, by getting rid of one of the two in the double pivot and isolating the worst of the two defensively.

Throughout this entire attacking phase by Utd our defenders were where they should be. The players exposed were Sissoko, Son and Lo Celso. Although not right positionally as the cover RB (not narrow enough and not inline with other 3, Sissoko is tactically in the ballpark of what is required from him in this system. Lo Celso simply didn't fulfil his role as the loan deep-lying defender (but is he a deep-lying defender, is this why we bought him??). Son as a consequence of Lo Celso too deep got drawn to Berge, he was too late and then in turn out of position to cover Davies and then left his man when ball pulled back.
Pretty much agree with this.
Yes you give credit to Wilder.
But we've seen this before. Nagelsmann and Leipzig did the same thing to us by exploiting Aurier advanced position. In the post match interview Nagelsmann said it was an easy tactic to exploit us.

In the Leipzig game, Winks was the sole DM in the middle of the pitch. Winks gets crucified for it, but what can he do when there is a 2v1 and in the case of the Leipzig game a 3v1. That's not to say Winks is a good DM. Because he doesn't know how to play the position as we saw in the phase of play when Dier gave away the penalty against Man U a couple weeks ago.
 
Pretty much agree with this.
Yes you give credit to Wilder.
But we've seen this before. Nagelsmann and Leipzig did the same thing to us by exploiting Aurier advanced position. In the post match interview Nagelsmann said it was an easy tactic to exploit us.

In the Leipzig game, Winks was the sole DM in the middle of the pitch. Winks gets crucified for it, but what can he do when there is a 2v1 and in the case of the Leipzig game a 3v1. That's not to say Winks is a good DM. Because he doesn't know how to play the position as we saw in the phase of play when Dier gave away the penalty against Man U a couple weeks ago.
Thanks mate!

Now just pop over to the Aurier thread for a laugh.
 
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