Dele

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I don't think he has the defensive ability nor the technical ability to dictate pace and tempo. It was difficult enough getting his defensive work rate to where it was suitable for his advanced role, can't imagine what it would do to him if he needs to be even more defensive. I would rather he plays in his current role which suits him fine, than force him into a role that he is less suited for. Instead of playing that deep, it's better to change the formation.

With Wanyama + Dembele, Dembele was the playmaker and would have fit in the role we are currently missing. You might think they are similar, but Ndombele is nothing like that Dembele

Fair enough, i disagree on almost all of that - especially wrt to Ndombeles qualities as a player and his suitability to the seperate roles being discussed.

I wouldn't describe M.Dembele as a playmaker, I've never actually heard him described as such before. Eriksen was the playmaker in that team, albeit from an advanced position, M.Dembele was more of number 8/box to box but with standout dribbling skills.

Ndombele's skillset, for me, lie halfway between a deep playmaker and a box to box type, hence why he has had little impact in the final third despite playing there most the time and yet clearly having a good passing range/eye for a pass/good dribbling abilities - i feel he'd have more impact deeper, getting on the ball earlier, setting counter moves off, carrying the ball forwards and progressing the ball to the final third players than he is suited to being the one to play that final pass, which clearly isn't his strong point hence why Dele, in his worst season creates and assists at a better rate than Ndombele has ever offered. He can run the show, but to do so he needs to be in thevright area - which is deep.
 
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Fair enough, i disagree on almost all of that - especially wrt to Ndombeles qualities as a player and his suitability to the seperate roles being discussed.

I wouldn't describe M.Dembele as a playmaker, I've never actually heard him described as such before. Eriksen was the playmaker in that team, albeit from an advanced position, M.Dembele was more of number 8/box to box but with standout dribbling skills.

Ndombele's skillset, for me, lie halfway between a deep playmaker and a box to box type, hence why he has had little impact in the final third despite playing there most the time and yet clearly having a good passing range/eye for a pass/good dribbling abilities - i feel he'd have more impact deeper, getting on the ball earlier, setting counter moves off, carrying the ball forwards and progressing the ball to the final third players than he is suited to being the one to play that final pass, which clearly isn't his strong point hence why Dele, in his worst season creates and assists at a better rate than Ndombele has ever offered. He can run the show, but to do so he needs to be in thevright area - which is deep.
Its wierd that you have never heard Dembele described as a playmaker, when that was his description even at Fulham. A simple web search will reveal innumerable references (e.g. Fulham accept Spurs' Dembele bid).
Fulham boss Martin Jol has revealed that the club have accepted a bid from Tottenham for playmaker Moussa Dembele, believed to be in the region of £15 million.

The playmaker is the one responsible for the tempo and flow of the team when in possession e.g. slow the game down or increase the tempo, decides whether to attack through a flank or down the middle, etc. Good ones have not just the skills, but also very high football iq and understanding of the game.

In the old school, particularly when playing a standard 4-4-2, that playmaker is also usually the main creative force in the final 3rd (e.g. Scholes for ManU) . Some will thus often wrongly assume that the most creative player in the final 3rd is the playmaker, whereas the key criteria is who is dictating the tempo of the team. Of course you can still have advanced players be playmakers, with Maradona being an extreme case (he was a trequartista and also playmaker forArgentina)

In a 4-2-3-1 the playmaker is, most often than not, one of the double pivots. As an e.xample, at Madrid, Alonso was the playmaker while Ozil was the creative force in the final 3rd . Another example is Sahin/Kagawa for Dortmund. Pirlo/Costa was a similar split even though the formation was a xmas tree.

In that sense, Dembele was the heart beat of the team - he could pass long or short, start slow and suddenly accelerate into the opposition half etc. Eriksen was just the creative guy that provided that defense splitting pass in the final 3rd. It was also the reason that the bottom seem to fall off the midfield with his absences and drop in form, thus Poch having Eriksen drop deeper to fill the role.

Unfortunately, it is also the kind of player that the team is still missing.
 
Its wierd that you have never heard Dembele described as a playmaker, when that was his description even at Fulham. A simple web search will reveal innumerable references (e.g. Fulham accept Spurs' Dembele bid).
Fulham boss Martin Jol has revealed that the club have accepted a bid from Tottenham for playmaker Moussa Dembele, believed to be in the region of £15 million.

The playmaker is the one responsible for the tempo and flow of the team when in possession e.g. slow the game down or increase the tempo, decides whether to attack through a flank or down the middle, etc. Good ones have not just the skills, but also very high football iq and understanding of the game.

In the old school, particularly when playing a standard 4-4-2, that playmaker is also usually the main creative force in the final 3rd (e.g. Scholes for ManU) . Some will thus often wrongly assume that the most creative player in the final 3rd is the playmaker, whereas the key criteria is who is dictating the tempo of the team. Of course you can still have advanced players be playmakers, with Maradona being an extreme case (he was a trequartista and also playmaker forArgentina)

In a 4-2-3-1 the playmaker is, most often than not, one of the double pivots. As an e.xample, at Madrid, Alonso was the playmaker while Ozil was the creative force in the final 3rd . Another example is Sahin/Kagawa for Dortmund. Pirlo/Costa was a similar split even though the formation was a xmas tree.

In that sense, Dembele was the heart beat of the team - he could pass long or short, start slow and suddenly accelerate into the opposition half etc. Eriksen was just the creative guy that provided that defense splitting pass in the final 3rd. It was also the reason that the bottom seem to fall off the midfield with his absences and drop in form, thus Poch having Eriksen drop deeper to fill the role.

Unfortunately, it is also the kind of player that the team is still missing.

Not finding the deluge of articles you are referring to tbh

Regardless, Dembele was such the complete midfielder i think you could argue he played several different roles at once in that midfield, if you wanted.

Wrt to Ndombele i see no reason why he can't perform the playmaker role you've described in your last post- he ticks off all the qualities required to me, what do you think he lacks or what makes him better suited to a final third position? And why do you think his productivity in the final third is so low?
 
I don't think he has the defensive ability nor the technical ability to dictate pace and tempo. It was difficult enough getting his defensive work rate to where it was suitable for his advanced role, can't imagine what it would do to him if he needs to be even more defensive. I would rather he plays in his current role which suits him fine, than force him into a role that he is less suited for. Instead of playing that deep, it's better to change the formation.

With Wanyama + Dembele, Dembele was the playmaker and would have fit in the role we are currently missing. You might think they are similar, but Ndombele is nothing like that Dembele
Dembele was physically stronger, more reliable on ball protection, maybe a bit more skillful on dribbling than Ndombele.
I could say their ball holding and dribbling style are quite similar,other than that they are totally different type
 
Dembele was physically stronger, more reliable on ball protection, maybe a bit more skillful on dribbling than Ndombele.
I could say their ball holding and dribbling style are quite similar,other than that they are totally different type
Jose news conference (according to SSN.

Jose saying Dele had an injury, hence why he wasn't on the bench vs Sheffield Utd.
Could be a doubt for Wycombe as well.
 
You are not doing your credibility any service when you claim Bergwijn is better than Sissoko as a defensive midfielder. That is just nonsense.

Yes, a 4-3-3 solves your Sissoko problem, but creates others e.g. what happens when GLC is unavailable, Reguilon and Son cannot be as offensive as they currently are, Bergwijn has to track back even more, how do you man mark a CAM when needed etc.

All these can be debated but are simply too hypothetical to be worth much value

Bergwijn would be much better than Sissoko as a defensive midfielder. Both would struggle with the defensive aspects of it but Bergwijn, unlike Sissoko, could help with ball movement and make passes. He wouldn't run away from the ball, hide from teammates looking for an outlet and be able to clear the ball from dangerous areas.

As for your concerns it is easily addressed by one addition of quality MFer.
 
Not finding the deluge of articles you are referring to tbh

Regardless, Dembele was such the complete midfielder i think you could argue he played several different roles at once in that midfield, if you wanted.

Wrt to Ndombele i see no reason why he can't perform the playmaker role you've described in your last post- he ticks off all the qualities required to me, what do you think he lacks or what makes him better suited to a final third position? And why do you think his productivity in the final third is so low?
The question is not how many roles Dembele played but that who was the playmaker, and my assertion is that it was Dembele and not Eriksen.

Ndombele can develop into a playmaker, but he would need to add much more to his game, but even then , he would be a central playmaker not a deep lying playmaker as required in a double pivot i.e he would be more a Xavi than an Alonso. Specifically, the 4-2-3-1 under Mourinho requires a deep lying playmakerand that is not Ndombele. Two key qualities he currently lacks (specific to DLP beyond general playmaking requirements) is the defensive quality and the long range passing.

His is currently low because he is still struggling to adapt to the burden of the defensive duties that Mourinho demands. Once his fitness catches up (playing 90mins regularly) and the defensive role becomes more instinctive, he would have more energy and freedom on the offensive end. Also, once we have a DLP, we will have more consistent and meaningful possession, which should increase offensive production for the entire team (e.g. Kane wont have to keep dropping so deep)
 
Bergwijn would be much better than Sissoko as a defensive midfielder. Both would struggle with the defensive aspects of it but Bergwijn, unlike Sissoko, could help with ball movement and make passes. He wouldn't run away from the ball, hide from teammates looking for an outlet and be able to clear the ball from dangerous areas.

As for your concerns it is easily addressed by one addition of quality MFer.
This is just arrant nonsense
 
The question is not how many roles Dembele played but that who was the playmaker, and my assertion is that it was Dembele and not Eriksen.

Ndombele can develop into a playmaker, but he would need to add much more to his game, but even then , he would be a central playmaker not a deep lying playmaker as required in a double pivot i.e he would be more a Xavi than an Alonso. Specifically, the 4-2-3-1 under Mourinho requires a deep lying playmakerand that is not Ndombele. Two key qualities he currently lacks (specific to DLP beyond general playmaking requirements) is the defensive quality and the long range passing.

His is currently low because he is still struggling to adapt to the burden of the defensive duties that Mourinho demands. Once his fitness catches up (playing 90mins regularly) and the defensive role becomes more instinctive, he would have more energy and freedom on the offensive end. Also, once we have a DLP, we will have more consistent and meaningful possession, which should increase offensive production for the entire team (e.g. Kane wont have to keep dropping so deep)

It's been interesting reading your opinions mate but I'm going to have to bow out now as i think as we just seem to view these things far too differently. Will be interesting to see where Ndombele ends up settling for us long term
 
Don't see where Dele fits in Jose team, for me Dele works best as second striker in 2 striker system
he is not strong or fast enough to be CF, not got that speed to be LW/RW
that's what hes not good at,
but he is good at getting into box, creating/scoring, just needs to be in right system
 
I think Dele could work as a right wing relied on not for pace but for getting into the box an auxiliary to Kane. Like Son playing just ahead of Kane. But he would provide a different threat than Son and a different outlet for Kane.

It would only work in a 5 back with Regi and Aurier as wing backs bombing forward for width. But it's worth a try.
 
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