Eric Dier

Airfixx

[Cherub] #TeamHebzebenese
Are they "meaningless" or aren't they?

I've not said they are "meaningless".... (Which is why I chopped that part of your post out of my reply... It doesn't apply to me!)

It's up to the manager to make tangible use of and draw value from these games if he intends to thrive at the WCs or ECs. The next thing we know we'll hear the ol' complaints about how international managers don't get enough time with their players .... Perhaps you condone them pissing it away when they do have it...?

Should we just dick around until the Euro's bearing in mind here are no more full blown competetive games between now and the start of the tournament?
 
I've not said they are "meaningless".... (Which is why I chopped that part of your post out of my reply... It doesn't apply to me!)

It's up to the manager to make tangible use of and draw value from these games if he intends to thrive at the WCs or ECs. The next thing we know we'll hear the ol' complaints about how international managers don't get enough time with their players .... Perhaps you condone them pissing it away when they do have it...?

Should we just dick around until the Euro's bearing in mind here are no more full blown competetive games between now and the start of the tournament?
But it was you that was fuming at Soughtate for selecting Kane (even though he wasn't selected or training in the 1st sessions). Would you be fuming at Southgate had he done that going into a World Cup or Euros this summer?

And why don't you think Southgate achieved exactly this? Your measure it would seem is a win in a friendly?
 

Airfixx

[Cherub] #TeamHebzebenese
But it was you that was fuming at Soughtate for selecting Kane (even though he wasn't selected or training in the 1st sessions).

Quotes please... There may be a number of statement your're alluding to but you're def. bending the context to suit.

Would you be fuming at Southgate had he done that going into a World Cup or Euros this summer?

Where in this exchange have I insisted that he should be playing his first XI in every game?

I haven't.

And why don't you think Southgate achieved exactly this? Your measure it would seem is a win in a friendly?

I've not mentioned results.... We beat Iceland & Belgium (& Ireland & Wales) so your assumption is moot.


We're numerous posts into this exchange you've not attemoted to offer a substantial counterpoint to my comments about system, gameplay or personel impetus.... Address my actual comments or don't, G, but I can't be arsed to play gymnastics with you.
 
Quotes please... There may be a number of statement your're alluding to but you're def. bending the context to suit.



Where in this exchange have I insisted that he should be playing his first XI in every game?

I haven't.



I've not mentioned results.... We beat Iceland & Belgium (& Ireland & Wales) so your assumption is moot.


We're numerous posts into this exchange you've not attemoted to offer a substantial counterpoint to my comments about system, gameplay or personel impetus.... Address my actual comments or don't, G, but I can't be arsed to play gymnastics with you.
Mate, you know very well your stance on Southgate selecting Kane in the squad, banging on about him and Jose and their Press Confs comments, c'mon now. I really can't be arsed to trawl through the site just to post them again but please just hold your hand up that you thought he shouldn't be there (despite him not being part of training and not getting mins until the latter stages and for him to go back to Spurs completly fit and in a better state than when he left).

I haven't made the assertion about playing first 11, I was talking about Kane our best player and asked you a question about how you would feel had he left him out during a Tournament. A question you haven't answered.

But you said "It's up to the manager to make tangible use of and draw value from these games if he intends to thrive at the WCs or ECs". So I take this to mean that you think that he didn't make tangible use.

I'm saying how do you know that he didn't achieve this? I'm saying it doesn't have to be a linear progression, which you seem to think it does(??) What measures are you using to evaluate this team if not the result? What were you expecting from these friendlies? They clearly have fallen below your expectations, why?
 

Airfixx

[Cherub] #TeamHebzebenese
Mate, you know very well your stance on Southgate selecting Kane in the squad, banging on about him and Jose and their Press Confs comments, c'mon now. I really can't be arsed to trawl through the site just to post them again but please just hold your hand up that you thought he shouldn't be there (despite him not being part of training and not getting mins until the latter stages and for him to go back to Spurs completly fit and in a better state than when he left).

Kane: My concerns were surrounding his fitness and until then Gary's (pre DCL) habbit of always playing him.

So yeh, you are bending the context of my comments.

I haven't made the assertion about playing first 11, I was talking about Kane our best player and asked you a question about how you would feel had he left him out during a Tournament. A question you haven't answered.

If he was left out in a tournament I'd want to know why (if it wasn't obvious to me already).

(Btw, you've spent this entire exchange dancing around my actual comments, so please don't act like I ought to submissively and exclusively concede to your chosen line of questioning.)

But you said "It's up to the manager to make tangible use of and draw value from these games if he intends to thrive at the WCs or ECs". So I take this to mean that you think that he didn't make tangible use.

No... That was my answer to you asking me if the games are "meaningless" or not.

My specific criticisms are written in my first 2 posts (and also directly after the match)

I'm saying how do you know that he didn't achieve this? I'm saying it doesn't have to be a linear progression, which you seem to think it does(??) What measures are you using to evaluate this team if not the result? What were you expecting from these friendlies? They clearly have fallen below your expectations, why?

Also see my original post.

If you think things are hunkydory and that come the summer we're gonna make the most of this pool of players then good for you.... Maybe pitch that side of the 'coin' instead then you can reserve the right to gloat if we win the trophy.
 
Kane: My concerns were surrounding his fitness and until then Gary's (pre DCL) habbit of always playing him.

So yeh, you are bending the context of my comments.



If he was left out in a tournament I'd want to know why (if it wasn't obvious to me already).

(Btw, you've spent this entire exchange dancing around my actual comments, so please don't act like I ought to submissively and exclusively concede to your chosen line of questioning.)



No... That was my answer to you asking me if the games are "meaningless" or not.

My specific criticisms are written in my first 2 posts (and also directly after the match)



Also see my original post.

If you think things are hunkydory and that come the summer we're gonna make the most of this pool of players then good for you.... Maybe pitch that side of the 'coin' instead then you can reserve the right to gloat if we win the trophy.
I haven't seen what your specific concerns are and/or how you have arrived at them. I was curious given we've played just a set of friendlies. I've attempted to gain more depth from you, to get you to expand. It's why I've been trying to find out whether it matters if it's a friendly or not, what you were expecting before we started (hence picking you up on Kane inclusion), what was your success or fail measurement.

In your first two posts you said we were too negative, yet we outshot Belgium 2 to 1 and had the same amount of shots on target as them. So what was negative for you if you weren't using the result as your measure?

See my post on what I think of Southgate posted just a handful of posts back: https://thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/eric-dier.11180/post-2582618
What else do you want to know?
 

Bazali

😇
And yet we have a squad full of players who play in the supposedly strongest league in Europe. Many of whom are rated as world class. Then they turn up for a match against Columbia and barely manage a win on penalties.
Play Belgium twice and get beat twice, play Croatia and get beat by Croatia,
Given the hype of Southgate Vs the actual achivemenbts (none, none at all) we have under performed. If there was no such hype. If people said "same old England" then we would have performed as expected.

Southgate is a nobody. He's never done antyhing as a coach. England are dire to watch.
He's just another face to play the players the FA tell him to.
A safe pair of hands and won’t embarrass the FA
 

Airfixx

[Cherub] #TeamHebzebenese
I haven't seen what your specific concerns are and/or how you have arrived at them.

So you didn't read either of the posts that you replied to at the beginning of this saga then?

Amazing work, G. :pochrolleyes:

I was curious given we've played just a set of friendlies. I've attempted to gain more depth from you, to get you to expand. It's why I've been trying to find out whether it matters if it's a friendly or not, what you were expecting before we started (hence picking you up on Kane inclusion), what was your success or fail measurement.

In your first two posts you said we were too negative, yet we outshot Belgium 2 to 1 and had the same amount of shots on target as them. So what was negative for you if you weren't using the result as your measure?

I listed numerous things that concerned me about the last 2 int. breaks (not simply about the last game!) and where we seemed to be heading based upon those things. You're not thick, so I can only assume you're hellbent on not acknowledging them (whether you agree or not).... All you've really sought to do here is trip me up regarding the importance of the games and avoided responding to any counter points.

Oh and It's superficial how many shots we had in the Belgium game.... Bearing in mind a) They comfortably sat back and defended for 70minutes having found themselves 2-0 up with relative ease and b) their GK had zero significant saves to make.... Again, not that any of my comments were based around one game anyway!

See my post on what I think of Southgate post just a handful of posts back: https://thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/eric-dier.11180/post-2582618
What else do you want to know?

Hunkydory. 😐
 
So you didn't read either of the posts that you replied to at the beginning of this saga then?

Amazing work, G. :pochrolleyes:



I listed numerous things that concerned me about the last 2 int. breaks (not simply about the last game!) and where we seemed to be heading based upon those things. You're not thick, so I can only assume you're hellbent on not acknowledging them (whether you agree or not).... All you've really sought to do here is trip me up regarding the importance of the games and avoided responding to any counter points.

Oh and It's superficial how many shots we had in the Belgium game.... Bearing in mind a) They comfortably sat back and defended for 70minutes having found themselves 2-0 up with relative ease and b) their GK had zero significant saves to make.... Again, not that any of my comments were based around one game anyway!



Hunkydory. 😐
I did read your posts, you weren't specific at all, I'm asking politely for you to expand on them in order to determine what are the specifics. You said Southgate was negative, I've said we outshot Belgium 2-1 and had the same amount of shots on target as them, so I asked further questions in an attempt to seek the "specifics".

If you want to expand to the other games then that's great. What are your specifics on those games as well? Why do you hold the views on Southgate of him regressing if you're not passing that judgement on the results of these friendlies?

I am only asking questions mate. It's not the Spanish inquisition, I'm not trying to "trip you up". I want to understand why specifically you think about what you do. You can engage with me on this or not, but if you decline just bow out. It doesn't have to be a battle, you're not on trial, there is no wrong or right just your opinion. It's not a fight. I thought this place is about the discourse of football opinions.
 
The sum of the parts of this England set up is the problem we have a ECL front three, championship midfield and a National league centre backs and goal keeper. We have little choice but play to our strengths something Southgate seems not to understand other than to pick a bunch of fullbacks for me if he can put out this eleven at a tournament we will be okay. Play 433 with Grealish swaping out for Rashford in the front three and Winks dropped in to start trickier games. Gary totally got it backwards last time out Winks should have been used to start then sub out when we had a foothold. That 18 odd players should be the basis of our tournament side.

Henderson
Chilwell
Stones
Mings
James
TAA
Grealish
Philips
Sterling
Kane
Rashford

D.c.l
Saka
Cody
Henderson
Pope
Sancho
Vardy
 

Mrs Perryman

Supporter
I'm a Cockney Malteser 👑
So I've just read through the last six pages, thinking the Eric Dier thread has been rather busy since my last visit. Don't know why I'm surprised to see that most of the content was the carding of igula and Southgate's deficiencies
:mourshock:
 
Talk about rewriting history!!

Going into the World Cup we were NOT expected to get beyond 1/4 final....we did.

Going into World Cup who the fuck in that team was "World Class"? This was the team: Pickford, Stones, Walker, Maguire, Henderson, Trippier, Lingard, Young, Dele (Sub: Dier, Welbeck, Cahill, Jones, Delph, Rashford, Loftus-Cheek, Rose, TAA & Pope). I'd say Kane & Sterling.

Both Croatia and Belgium were better than us. (we beat Belgium 2-0 though but I thought we played much better the other day than when we beat them 2-0, why omit this game?)

So, from that lot who are the "many rated as World Class"?

The last para is ridiculous and not really worthy of a response.

Stones and Walker - how many league titles?
Maguire - world record fee for a defender
Henderson - I think he's average but he's captain of the best PL team the last few seasons
Trips - one of ours then
Dele - match winner, social media star, one of ours.
Kane - properly world class.

Some of it is dross.
I think we're arguing over nothing though.
Good luck watching absolutely nothing happen with England for 5 more years until wobbly lip goes.
 
Stones and Walker - how many league titles?
Maguire - world record fee for a defender
Henderson - I think he's average but he's captain of the best PL team the last few seasons
Trips - one of ours then
Dele - match winner, social media star, one of ours.
Kane - properly world class.

Some of it is dross.
I think we're arguing over nothing though.
Good luck watching absolutely nothing happen with England for 5 more years until wobbly lip goes.
Wait, just to be clear you are confirming that those players in your list are World Class?

(I've said that Kane & Sterling were/are then. Although let's not forget the absolute dogs' abuse hurled at Sterling at this time would categorically not define him as a World Class player).
 
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