Hugo Lloris

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*caveat: I'm not a 'keeper and like most people who play football even at an amateur level don't play in goal. Usually, because they don't have a clue about the right angles and even where to stand. It's why most commentary and analysis that the pros talk is utter wank when it comes to 'keepers.

With that said, ALL 'keepres average positions have moved back towards the goal-line. This is a trend that has only been recognised in the last couple of years, in fact, more or less since Lloris joined us. We are not talking about sweeping here, we are talking about when teams are defending when the oppo has pressure in our box.

It is said that reason for this has been driven by data, so now XG data is used heavily it has been reapplied as to assist 'keepers on where the biggest chances are being scored form, to combat this there is a trend across ALL 'keepers to drop back towards their line as a counter-measure to defend the "big chances".

Regarding Lloris on this, his numbers (save %) has gone up, NOT down!! He is saving more shots than at any time in his career!!!

De Gea meanwhile his numbers have regressed to a middle of the road 'keeper, nothing special nothing bad. His positioning BTW has always been one of the furthest back, further back than Lloris when he joined Spurs. De Gear a couple of years ago was posting numbers never seen before, it was thought they were freak numbers, that they couldn't be sustained over time and so that has proved to be.

Other stuff you mention about "commanding the 6yrd box" is complete and total nonsense, the ONLY voice you can hear on the pitch is his, repeatedly in EVERY game.

Every 'keeper has their weaknesses, I've never rated his distribution, but here again, the issue is more nuanced than it appears, his ball distribution is one of the best in Europe! Now a lot of this has to do with the style of play as dictated from the manager, so under Poch, we played out from the back, therefore he was on the ball more because of this. One of the reasons to playout from the back is to draw the oppo onto you, so spaces are opened up in the middle of the pitch, this will lead the oppo (should they decide) to press the receiving defenders or even the 'keeper, the law of averages says that they will nick the ball once in a while, or force the 'keeper into an error when he misplaces a pass under that pressure or worse (BTW more teams concede goals as a result of a keeper kicking long than short, but us Englanders just shout "get rid", proper football)

He's not in decline, he's never posted better numbers in his entire career. What's in decline is our defence, the more the oppo shoot the more they will score. Stop the shots, you stop the goals.
I have lost track of the number of times recently where I have said to myself and heard others say “keeper should have done better” in relation to Lloris- and he’s only played half a season. And if you think he physically commands his 6 yard box you are watching a different game to me because every time we face a corner my heart is in my mouth.( I didn’t mean he doesn’t vocally command his 6 yard box, I meant physically he doesn’t). I don’t really place much weight on stats as you appear to as they can be made to fit a particular agenda. Ok you know best. He is a keeper at the top of his game cos the stats say so!
 
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Hugo “not in decline” I’ve heard it all now

What is this fixation with not holding players accountable for their own mistakes.

Or should I say some players, because there seems to be a core that are responsible for everything while others get off free for everything they do.

The defence has problems but to say Hugo has never been better is the stuff of a graph reading lunatic.

It’s not Tobys fault if Hugo does a Hugo. He did it when we were good too. He did it in the world cup final. It’s HIS fault.

He is the last line of defence so falling backwards into your own net from a cross isn’t on Aurier for getting beat on the wing.

Seems to be a couple of posters who won’t say a thing in a match thread in the direct aftermath of the game, then they come in full force during the week after they’ve studied the Sqwaka Chronicles and try and tell everyone that what they saw happen in the match didn’t happen because “Pie Chart”

Fuck off, it’s not biology or maths, it’s a human sport with a billion variables.
You can’t make a poor performance good with data and vice versa and if you don’t understand that, you have no right trying to tell people anything about this sport.

You’re lost.
 
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Our defence is shit now so were all these mistakes because of our defence?

Even the ones before our defence had these players in it?
Even the ones for France?

What a crock of shit
 
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I have lost track of the number of times recently where I have said to myself and heard others say “keeper should have done better” in relation to Lloris- and he’s only played half a season. And if you think he physically commands his 6 yard box you are watching a different game to me because every time we face a corner my heart is in my mouth. I don’t really place much weight on stats as you appear to as they can be made to fit a particular agenda. Ok you know best. He is a keeper at the top of his game!
And I've lost track with a) the number of shots we conced and b) the number of times I've said "were it not for Hugo it could have been *insert your multiple of goals*"

When a commentator, in this case, the World-renowned 'keeper Jennus, says he "should be doing better there" it's fair to say that's from no knowledge of being a 'keeper at all, it's also fair that having said that it's now become a truth. So much commentary around 'keepers is old, like if the ball is scored at a near post this is apparently totally unacceptable. "he's got to be claiming that", "just get rid", "put your laces through it", 'just catch it".

Just rewatch Leipzig's first goal again, first, our defensive is all over the shop, the entire phase of the attack we are out of shape, unopposed the ball is hit sweetly, first time with pace and across the goal through players who are sat too deep into the corner. The fact he got a hand to it would be the reason why people think he "should have done better" IMO, I've seen 'keepers rooted to the spot from similar shots and the commentary is all about the goalscorer.

You can find fault with him on loads of stuff and this will be the case every single week until we reduce the shots he faces. The more shots the oppo take the more goals they will score. (every goal is, in theory, preventable). This part of the data isn't rocket science.

The other stuff is and it's data that even the stato kids agree isn't nailed down yet when it comes to goalkeeping but here are a couple of decent articles about the effect of data on goalkeepers (I can't find the other one I read about the trends of 'keepers nowadays dropping to the line, if I get the time I'll look for it and post it.)
 
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Oh look there’s a part 2


Would be interesting to count up every player from all the back lines featured in all these mistakes for both us and France.

We are talking about 10-15 defenders over the years. Yet none of this is on the keeper
 
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Lloris has always made errors and he is making more then he was 5 years ago, but he’s still an excellent keeper and it would cost an insane amount of money to bring in someone better than him. We need to start looking for a young keeper who can challenge him but spending big money on the position is not a priority this summer.

We need to sort out our midfield and defensive unit more than we need to change the keeper. The first two goals that Leipzig scored on Tuesday certainly could have been saved but they should also never have been allowed to get the shots away in he first place. Nobody was even close to Sabitzer on the first one and the second one came from a dreadful header from Aurier. If we don’t fix our defensive unit then we will continue to concede goals even if we had Oblak in goal.
 
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And I've lost track with a) the number of shots we conced and b) the number of times I've said "were it not for Hugo it could have been *insert your multiple of goals*"

When a commentator, in this case, the World-renowned 'keeper Jennus, says he "should be doing better there" it's fair to say that's from no knowledge of being a 'keeper at all, it's also fair that having said that it's now become a truth. So much commentary around 'keepers is old, like if the ball is scored at a near post this is apparently totally unacceptable. "he's got to be claiming that", "just get rid", "put your laces through it", 'just catch it".

Just rewatch Leipzig's first goal again, first, our defensive is all over the shop, the entire phase of the attack we are out of shape, unopposed the ball is hit sweetly, first time with pace and across the goal through players who are sat too deep into the corner. The fact he got a hand to it would be the reason why people think he "should have done better" IMO, I've seen 'keepers rooted to the spot from similar shots and the commentary is all about the goalscorer.

You can find fault with him on loads of stuff and this will be the case every single week until we reduce the shots he faces. The more shots the oppo take the more goals they will score. (every goal is, in theory, preventable). This part of the data isn't rocket science.

The other stuff is and it's data that even the stato kids agree isn't nailed down yet when it comes to goalkeeping but here are a couple of decent articles about the effect of data on goalkeepers (I can't find the other one I read about the trends of 'keepers nowadays dropping to the line, if I get the time I'll look for it and post it.)
I am not excusing our defence at all. But Lloris is making more and more mistakes. He was fantastic for us for a number of years despite having the odd rush of blood to the head. Now it seems kind of accepted by a lot of people including myself that the next mistake is just around the corner. I am not saying Gazzaniga is the answer but had he let the two goals in against Leipzig in the manner that Lloris did then everyone would have been tearing into him.
 
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Oh no stat bomb said that if Hugo has 100 shots against him it’s ok to make 35 howlers and it’s Dier fault
Yes and that’s the problem with stats because if he saved say 50 of those 100 shots then you would have some people saying that he has made the most saves in Europe so must be one of the best
 
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I am not excusing our defence at all. But Lloris is making more and more mistakes. He was fantastic for us for a number of years despite having the odd rush of blood to the head. Now it seems kind of accepted by a lot of people including myself that the next mistake is just around the corner. I am not saying Gazzaniga is the answer but had he let the two goals in against Leipzig in the manner that Lloris did then everyone would have been tearing into him.
First, the problem remains, we concede too many shots on our goal, so no matter who is between the sticks they will be under more pressure than all bar 3 or 4 'Keepers in the entire League and as direct consequence errors will be made (by individual defenders & 'Keepers) and goals will be scored.

(Edderson is lorded as a world-class 'keeper because he lets in so few goals, he lets in so few goals because he faces so few shots (Man City dominate the possession and oppo really create chances as a result). But every game he has at least a couple of mistakes in him, this season the data has caught up with him and he's one of the worst-performing 'keepers bassed on the % of saves to goals scored ratio, I think he was at the bottom! I've not seen any new data about mistakes leading to gaols recently but suspect he's heading that list, not that this stat in isolation is of any real value, a bit like clean-sheets, without context, it still requires the opposition to actually score from the resulting error and/or what is statistically classified as an error might have been as a consequence of another error in the same move).

The way we are set-up as a team needs to be fixed to reduce the shots we are facing as a team. This has been at the genesis of the rise and the fall of Poch. When he first took over we conceded many shots, we then became the team that conceded the fewest. Then we started to concede more and more shots, getting worse each month, the trend has continued to slide under Jose too. Teams now score more goals against us as a consequence of us conceding more shots (one of the worst teams in the league).
 
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Hugo “not in decline” I’ve heard it all now

What is this fixation with not holding players accountable for their own mistakes.

Or should I say some players, because there seems to be a core that are responsible for everything while others get off free for everything they do.

The defence has problems but to say Hugo has never been better is the stuff of a graph reading lunatic.

It’s not Tobys fault if Hugo does a Hugo. He did it when we were good too. He did it in the world cup final. It’s HIS fault.

He is the last line of defence so falling backwards into your own net from a cross isn’t on Aurier for getting beat on the wing.
It's the 2015-17 core who can do no wrong and God help anyone who gets selected ahead of favourites. The fact that for well over a year Toby has been going backwards at a rate of knots and still some can't see past him and Jan (apart from opposition strikers who can get past them).
 
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Yes and that’s the problem with stats because if he saved say 50 of those 100 shots then you would have some people saying that he has made the most saves in Europe so must be one of the best
It’s a big problem these days.
People telling you that what is actually happening didn’t happen.

Id challenge them to watch a game without reading the stats after. Must be a horrific experience to “enjoy” the game that way

Always looking for a way to belittle your least favorite players with maths, and exonerate your favourites regardless of what went on on the pitch.

And when the assists and goals, and tackles are non existent, it becomes “recieved passes”.

Now Hugo is exempt from the clown mistakes that Gaz and Vorm don’t even make.......despite playing behind the same players that are “the reason” Hugo fucks up nearly every single time he plays
 
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Sorry mate, have to disagree, Hugo is in steep decline, shots he would have saved easily previously he's not getting to and his decision making is shocking. Add in the fact he struggles to land properly.

Stats are wonderful, but they tell a fraction of what happened. A trundler from 40 yards that your Granny could save is counted ever bit as much a save as a miracle stop on the goal line from a volley from 4 yards out.

Had we got Nubel, I don't think Hugo would have been in our memories too much this time next year.
Well you know I'm going to disagree here mate.

If it's the first goal against Leipzig your are referring to as a trundler then please rewatch it, it's hit and placed so well.

Decision making is right now a tough one to call, mainly because most of us don't have a clue what we are trying to be as a team. So under Jose, we go long so many times, to me when I sit and watch live my default reaction is to get annoyed at Lloris for hoofing it up the pitch, that annoyance rises still further when the resultant hoof is won by the oppo as it almost always is. So now in my head, I'm screaming at Lloris for making such a stupid decision to hoof it long and concede possession. But the reality is, it's a pattern of play, it's an instruction because it's not just him, it's whoever is in the back-line they are all doing it!

But yes I agree you can magnify many cases of poor decision making but this is also systemic of us being under so much pressure as a team, defending for our lives, getting pulled about by the oppo, this all causes stress on the group and as we have repeatedly seen someone will make an error or a poor decision as a result from it.

This will keep happening until we fix the shape of the team, become more dominate on the ball and start to control games. Failure to do this and you will continue to see poor judgement being made, errors, more shots and more goals scored against us.
 
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First, the problem remains, we concede too many shots on our goal, so no matter who is between the sticks they will be under more pressure than all bar 3 or 4 'Keepers in the entire League and as direct consequence errors will be made (by individual defenders & 'Keepers) and goals will be scored.

(Edderson is lorded as a world-class 'keeper because he lets in so few goals, he lets in so few goals because he faces so few shots (Man City dominate the possession and oppo really create chances as a result). But every game he has at least a couple of mistakes in him, this season the data has caught up with him and he's one of the worst-performing 'keepers bassed on the % of saves to goals scored ratio, I think he was at the bottom! I've not seen any new data about mistakes leading to gaols recently but suspect he's heading that list, not that this stat in isolation is of any real value, a bit like clean-sheets, without context, it still requires the opposition to actually score from the resulting error and/or what is statistically classified as an error might have been as a consequence of another error in the same move).

The way we are set-up as a team needs to be fixed to reduce the shots we are facing as a team. This has been at the genesis of the rise and the fall of Poch. When he first took over we conceded many shots, we then became the team that conceded the fewest. Then we started to concede more and more shots, getting worse each month, the trend has continued to slide under Jose too. Teams now score more goals against us as a consequence of us conceding more shots (one of the worst teams in the league).
There is truth in a lot of what you say above. Our defending has gone from best in the league a few seasons ago to one of the worst but I can tell that without stats. There is much to sort out- that much I am sure we can agree on!
 
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It’s a big problem these days.
People telling you that what is actually happening didn’t happen.

Id challenge them to watch a game without reading the stats after. Must be a horrific experience to “enjoy” the game that way

Always looking for a way to belittle your least favorite players with maths, and exonerate your favourites regardless of what went on on the pitch.

And when the assists and goals, and tackles are non existent, it becomes “recieved passes”.

Now Hugo is exempt from the clown mistakes that Gaz and Vorm don’t even make.......despite playing behind the same players that are “the reason” Hugo fucks up nearly every single time he plays
Oh well looking on the bright side at least there won’t be any mistakes til at least April now!
 
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There is truth in a lot of what you say above. Our defending has gone from best in the league a few seasons ago to one of the worst but I can tell that without stats. There is much to sort out- that much I am sure we can agree on!
Stats are only as relevant as the context in which they are used.

So a team that keeps the most clean sheets in a season doesn't prove that the best goalkeeper is also in that team, although this is bizarrely the most prevalently used stat to measure the performance of the 'keeper.

If like us a couple of seasons ago or City now, for example, the reason for the clean sheets was because they (we) dominated the ball and when out of possession they (we) still didn't allow the oppo to shoot many times, and if they did shoot the shot was also from a less dangerous position thus reducing the chance to score in the first place. This fact alone might have also boosted the 'Keepers save % but drill down on that further and it might show that because the shot was taken from a "low chance" location that was it really a good save, or was it a better save than one faced from a "high chance" location? Does it not make sense to dare to suggest that the better keeper is one that makes more saves, then even better than that it's one that makes saves from the most difficult locations the opposition find themselves shooting from?

The above is just a snapshot of data and how it's used and communicated but the data shows that there isn't a 'keeper who makes more saves and drill even further there isn't a keeper that makes more saves from 'high chance" locations. This is good.

Goalkeeper data, however, is still very weak, both in how it's collated and how it's interpreted and it is so dependant of the style the team play it can be a very complex subject but in an environment that still uses clean-sheets as THE key measure on goalkeepers ability and commentators who have never played in goal anything that currently surrounds the subject matter in the mainstream is highly suspect and focuses on all the wrong elements of goalkeeping assessments.
 
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Stats are only as relevant as the context in which they are used.

So a team that keeps the most clean sheets in a season doesn't prove that the best goalkeeper is also in that team, although this is bizarrely the most prevalently used stat to measure the performance of the 'keeper.

If like us a couple of seasons ago or City now, for example, the reason for the clean sheets was because they (we) dominated the ball and when out of possession they (we) still didn't allow the oppo to shoot many times, and if they did shoot the shot was also from a less dangerous position thus reducing the chance to score in the first place. This fact alone might have also boosted the 'Keepers save % but drill down on that further and it might show that because the shot was taken from a "low chance" location that was it really a good save, or was it a better save than one faced from a "high chance" location? Does it not make sense to dare to suggest that the better keeper is one that makes more saves, then even better than that it's one that makes saves from the most difficult locations the opposition find themselves shooting from?

The above is just a snapshot of data and how it's used and communicated but the data shows that there isn't a 'keeper who makes more saves and drill even further there isn't a keeper that makes more saves from 'high chance" locations. This is good.

Goalkeeper data, however, is still very weak, both in how it's collated and how it's interpreted and it is so dependant of the style the team play it can be a very complex subject but in an environment that still uses clean-sheets as THE key measure on goalkeepers ability and commentators who have never played in goal anything that currently surrounds the subject matter in the mainstream is highly suspect and focuses on all the wrong elements of goalkeeping assessments.
Yes and that is why sometimes we should learn to trust what our eyes are telling us a bit more. For example how did anyone decide that Dave Mackay was a great player for Spurs in the 60’s? It wasn’t from studying statistics for hours on end which weren’t available in those days anyway- it was by people using their eyes. If I apply that to Hugo unfortunately my eyes tell me he is not as good as he was irrespective of what any stats say
 
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Yes and that is why sometimes we should learn to trust what our eyes are telling us a bit more. For example how did anyone decide that Dave Mackay was a great player for Spurs in the 60’s? It wasn’t from studying statistics for hours on end which weren’t available in those days anyway- it was by people using their eyes. If I apply that to Hugo unfortunately my eyes tell me he is not as good as he was irrespective of what any stats say
But you can’t tell without putting him back in the same situation (ie, same defence, same MF, same shots etcetera). We all know he makes high-profile howlers, but probably better at the ‘meat-and-potatoes’ bits...Gazzaniga made more simple errors and Vorm...

Is there a better keeper? Depends what you want him to do and how to do it. Hugo is having to stop more shots than before, though, no doubt, and we are attuned to remembering mistakes more than successes. There’s no pace from Walker or Rose to try and clear up the mess, and Trippier / Sissoko are gone or out so there’s no cover on the RB position.

I would say it looks like he’s making more mistakes, but that may simply be because there is more opportunity to do so.
 
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