Joshua Onomah

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Yes, I get the point you were trying to make about Smith.

Thing is it’s not just Spurs. Who’s come through at City? Chealsea? (And of course I’m talking about pre-transfer ban) Woolwich? Liverpool? United have a few but is that also why they are shit?

 

[Spursidol]

Yes, I get the point you were trying to make about Smith.

Thing is it’s not just Spurs. Who’s come through at City? Chealsea? (And of course I’m talking about pre-transfer ban) Woolwich? Liverpool? United have a few but is that also why they are shit?

ManU are shit through bad buying - both overspending but also bad choices. Despite his reputation, Mourhino did a decent job of helping bring through academy players Marcus Rashford and Scott McTominay and now Solskjaer is bringing through Mason Greenwood - all 3 players will be big for them over the next few years.

ManCity just have tooo much money - which is why Jadon Sancho went to Dortmund as he saw no possibility of getting a game and Phil Foden despite looking a better player at times than some of the high cost imports, he hardly gets any minutes. So great academy through paying top dollar wages to all the youngsters, but no development path from 18-21, they just buy players for instant success. And they don't look like a good 2nd in the table despite spending a billion on players.

Chelsea the same as Mancity - until they hired Lampard after doing an ok job at Derby, but not sure why and whether transfer ban was the only reason. Either way he's proved Chelsea do have a decent academy with is it 7 players he's given debuts to this season ?

Woolwich will need to utilise their academy more as they don't have the money to compete in buying players. Be interesting to see how that works out.

Liverpool brought through TAA - old story of getting injuries, gave TAA a chance and he's never looked back. But Liverpool (sadly) hired 2 Spurs old boys who went as past Spurs managers didn't like DoF's and analytics and over the last 6+ years have been fantastically successful at buying players (except TAA at RB, was mainly a midfielder in their academy.

So in summary, all the big clubs tend to buy for instant success rather than develop players (except ManU who both buy and develop and Woolwich who I think will follow that model, and will Chelsea continue to bring through youngsters after Lampard goes ?) - your point I imagine ?

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

ManU are shit through bad buying - both overspending but also bad choices. Despite his reputation, Mourhino did a decent job of helping bring through academy players Marcus Rashford and Scott McTominay and now Solskjaer is bringing through Mason Greenwood - all 3 players will be big for them over the next few years.

ManCity just have tooo much money - which is why Jadon Sancho went to Dortmund as he saw no possibility of getting a game and Phil Foden despite looking a better player at times than some of the high cost imports, he hardly gets any minutes. So great academy through paying top dollar wages to all the youngsters, but no development path from 18-21, they just buy players for instant success. And they don't look like a good 2nd in the table despite spending a billion on players.

Chelsea the same as Mancity - until they hired Lampard after doing an ok job at Derby, but not sure why and whether transfer ban was the only reason. Either way he's proved Chelsea do have a decent academy with is it 7 players he's given debuts to this season ?

Woolwich will need to utilise their academy more as they don't have the money to compete in buying players. Be interesting to see how that works out.

Liverpool brought through TAA - old story of getting injuries, gave TAA a chance and he's never looked back. But Liverpool (sadly) hired 2 Spurs old boys who went as past Spurs managers didn't like DoF's and analytics and over the last 6+ years have been fantastically successful at buying players (except TAA at RB, was mainly a midfielder in their academy.

So in summary, all the big clubs tend to buy for instant success rather than develop players (except ManU who both buy and develop and Woolwich who I think will follow that model, and will Chelsea continue to bring through youngsters after Lampard goes ?) - your point I imagine ?

The point is clear. All teams competing at the top end of the table largely do not bring through youth. The one team that has Utd is the worst performing of all.

Woolwich have only brought through Belerin and Ramsey successfully and given their drop in relative terms on the financial position they are looking to do what we did 5/6 years ago.

This is the reality of football. There really are very few teams that utilise their academies and when they do they get plundered. Everton has an excellent academy yet still spends heavily.

You know that I’m largely playing devil’s advocate here but there’s more evidence to support that we’re probably better than most of our rivals or at least no different.

 

[Spursidol]

The point is clear. All teams competing at the top end of the table largely do not bring through youth. The one team that has Utd is the worst performing of all.

Woolwich have only brought through Belerin and Ramsey successfully and given their drop in relative terms on the financial position they are looking to do what we did 5/6 years ago.

This is the reality of football. There really are very few teams that utilise their academies and when they do they get plundered. Everton has an excellent academy yet still spends heavily.

You know that I’m largely playing devil’s advocate here but there’s more evidence to support that we’re probably better than most of our rivals or at least no different.

But Spurs are at our worst period for years in bringing youngsters through

And at the same time- we've bought a number of squad fillers - places which could be filled by some academy graduates, some of whom might become real stars, but a number will be here for a few years before moving on.

Look back to the ManU glory days under Fergie - a handful of the squad were the likes of John O'Shea not great players but good enough playing alongside real stars. Saved a ton of money by not buying the squad fillers too - so more money to buy more of the stars we want like Lo Celso......and we might get another Harry Kane every 5 or 10 years as well as squad fillers.

So time to go back to trying to bring through one youngster a year - some will stay for a few years before moving on as they are not good enough (we made over £100m in the few years before Poch and first year or so of Poch_ which is handy to add to the transfer pot) , others will stay because they are good emough.

All I'm advocating is pursuing both a spending strategy alongside a development of academy graduate strategy. Always better to pursue more than one strategy when they don't conflict

 

[tbonepremier]

ManU are shit through bad buying - both overspending but also bad choices. Despite his reputation, Mourhino did a decent job of helping bring through academy players Marcus Rashford and Scott McTominay and now Solskjaer is bringing through Mason Greenwood - all 3 players will be big for them over the next few years.

ManCity just have tooo much money - which is why Jadon Sancho went to Dortmund as he saw no possibility of getting a game and Phil Foden despite looking a better player at times than some of the high cost imports, he hardly gets any minutes. So great academy through paying top dollar wages to all the youngsters, but no development path from 18-21, they just buy players for instant success. And they don't look like a good 2nd in the table despite spending a billion on players.

Chelsea the same as Mancity - until they hired Lampard after doing an ok job at Derby, but not sure why and whether transfer ban was the only reason. Either way he's proved Chelsea do have a decent academy with is it 7 players he's given debuts to this season ?

Woolwich will need to utilise their academy more as they don't have the money to compete in buying players. Be interesting to see how that works out.

Liverpool brought through TAA - old story of getting injuries, gave TAA a chance and he's never looked back. But Liverpool (sadly) hired 2 Spurs old boys who went as past Spurs managers didn't like DoF's and analytics and over the last 6+ years have been fantastically successful at buying players (except TAA at RB, was mainly a midfielder in their academy.

So in summary, all the big clubs tend to buy for instant success rather than develop players (except ManU who both buy and develop and Woolwich who I think will follow that model, and will Chelsea continue to bring through youngsters after Lampard goes ?) - your point I imagine ?

I think the biggest clubs know very well by now that it's close to impossible to develop a youngster for the top level at the very best clubs. They have to try though, because of the HG rule.

The HG rule is both a blessing and a curse for young, ambitious footballers.

It is a blessing because the big clubs will spend a fortune giving their talents fantastic facilities, follow-up and training. And the hottest of hot prospects will be able to make a fortune despite not really reaching the level necessary to i prove their clubs.

It is a curse because young, talented players who have reached a point where they need regular game time to keep improving, will be retained at their clubs to fill the squad and sit on the stands and decline as footballers instead of improving. Too many of the world's most talented youngster are withering away in clubs that are just too big for them.

Hopefully, more youngster will look to Sancho and the success he's had following his move to Dortmund.

 

[BangkokSpud]

But Spurs are at our worst period for years in bringing youngsters through

And at the same time- we've bought a number of squad fillers - places which could be filled by some academy graduates, some of whom might become real stars, but a number will be here for a few years before moving on.

Look back to the ManU glory days under Fergie - a handful of the squad were the likes of John O'Shea not great players but good enough playing alongside real stars. Saved a ton of money by not buying the squad fillers too - so more money to buy more of the stars we want like Lo Celso......and we might get another Harry Kane every 5 or 10 years as well as squad fillers.

So time to go back to trying to bring through one youngster a year - some will stay for a few years before moving on as they are not good enough (we made over £100m in the few years before Poch and first year or so of Poch_ which is handy to add to the transfer pot) , others will stay because they are good emough.

All I'm advocating is pursuing both a spending strategy alongside a development of academy graduate strategy. Always better to pursue more than one strategy when they don't conflict

You're missing the point that today the EPL is so competitive playing a youngster will likely shatter his confidence and cost points, the step up from under 23's to EPL is simply massive. When the difference between success and failure is so tight managers would be fools, or insanely brave, to risk it. When forced to play youngsters due to injuries or fixture pile-ups most top clubs suffer ... that's reality.

The number of under 21's with over ten starts in the big six is just one Guendozi 20 with 16 starts at Woolwich

If you move to under 23's then City have Jesus 22 (12 starts) Liverpool have TAA 21 (22 starts) Chelsea have Mount 21 (21 starts) Abraham 22 (22 starts) Pulisic 21 (12 starts) Woolwich have Guendozi 20 (16 starts) man Utd have James 22 (21 starts) Rashford 22 (22 starts) and Bissaka 22 (21 starts) we had nobody under 23 as a regular starter under Poch .... now we have Ryan, Gedson, Tanganga but that's pretty much been forced by injuries.

So that's just nine semi-regular starters under 23 from the big six teams ... experience is vital.

If you look at the teams forced to play young players Woolwich / Man Utd even Chelsea just how are they doing?

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

But Spurs are at our worst period for years in bringing youngsters through

And at the same time- we've bought a number of squad fillers - places which could be filled by some academy graduates, some of whom might become real stars, but a number will be here for a few years before moving on.

Look back to the ManU glory days under Fergie - a handful of the squad were the likes of John O'Shea not great players but good enough playing alongside real stars. Saved a ton of money by not buying the squad fillers too - so more money to buy more of the stars we want like Lo Celso......and we might get another Harry Kane every 5 or 10 years as well as squad fillers.

So time to go back to trying to bring through one youngster a year - some will stay for a few years before moving on as they are not good enough (we made over £100m in the few years before Poch and first year or so of Poch_ which is handy to add to the transfer pot) , others will stay because they are good emough.

All I'm advocating is pursuing both a spending strategy alongside a development of academy graduate strategy. Always better to pursue more than one strategy when they don't conflict

I get this 100% and have said similar myself.

BUT a “squad filler” is only a “squad filler” if they turn out to be shit. They could have turn out really well. It’s also quite subjective. I thought Tripp’s was a terrible footballer and blocked the path of KWP, others who I’ve argued relentlessly on here would say he was a success and I’m not talking about earning £20m on his sale. N’kudo could have turned into a developed into a good player, had he done so he wouldn't be in the ”squad filler” category.

You’ve chosen Lo Celso, but surely he’s now in the way of Oakley-Booth?? If he fails at Spurs he too would be labelled a squad filler. Having Eriksen in the team surely meant that’s way Pritchard didn’t make it. The list is endless and highly subjective.

It’s also further complicated buy the financial aims and planning of the club. On one hand Levy’s a tight fisted bald bastard, then spunks money buying

 

[Spursidol]

You're missing the point that today the EPL is so competitive playing a youngster will likely shatter his confidence and cost points, the step up from under 23's to EPL is simply massive. When the difference between success and failure is so tight managers would be fools, or insanely brave, to risk it. When forced to play youngsters due to injuries or fixture pile-ups most top clubs suffer ... that's reality.

The number of under 21's with over ten starts in the big six is just one Guendozi 20 with 16 starts at Woolwich

If you move to under 23's then City have Jesus 22 (12 starts) Liverpool have TAA 21 (22 starts) Chelsea have Mount 21 (21 starts) Abraham 22 (22 starts) Pulisic 21 (12 starts) Woolwich have Guendozi 20 (16 starts) man Utd have James 22 (21 starts) Rashford 22 (22 starts) and Bissaka 22 (21 starts) we had nobody under 23 as a regular starter under Poch .... now we have Ryan, Gedson, Tanganga but that's pretty much been forced by injuries.

So that's just nine semi-regular starters under 23 from the big six teams ... experience is vital.

If you look at the teams forced to play young players Woolwich / Man Utd even Chelsea just how are they doing?

I get this 100% and have said similar myself.

BUT a “squad filler” is only a “squad filler” if they turn out to be shit. They could have turn out really well. It’s also quite subjective. I thought Tripp’s was a terrible footballer and blocked the path of KWP, others who I’ve argued relentlessly on here would say he was a success and I’m not talking about earning £20m on his sale. N’kudo could have turned into a developed into a good player, had he done so he wouldn't be in the ”squad filler” category.

You’ve chosen Lo Celso, but surely he’s now in the way of Oakley-Booth?? If he fails at Spurs he too would be labelled a squad filler. Having Eriksen in the team surely meant that’s way Pritchard didn’t make it. The list is endless and highly subjective.

It’s also further complicated buy the financial aims and planning of the club. On one hand Levy’s a tight fisted bald bastard, then spunks money buying

So if I take everything you have written is 100% correct that Japhet Tanganga has not played for Spurs first team this season.

Or that Oliver Skipp didn't play last season.

And in both cases Spurs fans were very accepting of the youngsters performances, and equally some errors (although its worth saying that experienced players costing multi millions of pounds also make mistakes in matches )

I'm not saying its easy to juggle time in the first team, and elsewhere would suggest we make better use of the loan system to give youngsters more first team experience to minimise the jump from u23 youth football to Spurs first team but it is clearly not an insurmountable gap - and maybe Tanganga's 5 matches for u23's v League 1 and League 2 sides in the EFL trophy helps bridge that gap a little.

As I say I think its an essential piece of squad management to both buy players and develop your own in parallel - and makes good financial sense as well as the need to fill some of the squad with Club trained and HG players..

 

[BangkokSpud]

So if I take everything you have written is 100% correct that Japhet Tanganga has not played for Spurs first team this season.

Or that Oliver Skipp didn't play last season.

And in both cases Spurs fans were very accepting of the youngsters performances, and equally some errors (although its worth saying that experienced players costing multi millions of pounds also make mistakes in matches )

I'm not saying its easy to juggle time in the first team, and elsewhere would suggest we make better use of the loan system to give youngsters more first team experience to minimise the jump from u23 youth football to Spurs first team but it is clearly not an insurmountable gap - and maybe Tanganga's 5 matches for u23's v League 1 and League 2 sides in the EFL trophy helps bridge that gap a little.

As I say I think its an essential piece of squad management to both buy players and develop your own in parallel - and makes good financial sense as well as the need to fill some of the squad with Club trained and HG players..

This is the Onomah thread and by his own admission he found the step up to big both physically and mentally and he's not alone, the list of players who have failed is far, far, far longer than those who have succeeded, not saying it can't work Winks, Tanganga and Skipp are all hanging in there but Charlie Daniels, Adam Smith, Ryan Fredericks all needed the move to escape the pressure ...

I like the idea of keeping the very, very best at home, but having players around the squad who will almost never getting playing time, how does that help them or us? We have 30 players in the under 23's with currently 5 out on loan, we have another 28 first and second year academy players .... maybe one a season will make the huge step into the EPL team if we're very lucky ...

 

[Spursidol]

This is the Onomah thread and by his own admission he found the step up to big both physically and mentally and he's not alone, the list of players who have failed is far, far, far longer than those who have succeeded, not saying it can't work Winks, Tanganga and Skipp are all hanging in there but Charlie Daniels, Adam Smith, Ryan Fredericks all needed the move to escape the pressure ...

I like the idea of keeping the very, very best at home, but having players around the squad who will almost never getting playing time, how does that help them or us? We have 30 players in the under 23's with currently 5 out on loan, we have another 28 first and second year academy players .... maybe one a season will make the huge step into the EPL team if we're very lucky ...

We moved away from Onomah to a more general discussion, but I'm not sure that Onomah being moved on was solely down to him - in recent games he's started to look a lot better at Fulham so he might be back at PL in a couple of years. Basic problem was Poch playing him as RW rather than CM and in practice for only a few minutes at a time. No way of proving one way or the other whether a different coach would have got more out of Onomah

But in general terms, imo the coach should be aiming to get one player a year through from the Academy into first team - some of them may move on as they are not quite the standard required but others may well stay. Whilst the academy is by no means as productive as it once was, we still have a number of candidates who next pre-season (when euros on so many first team players will arrive back with no pre-season a week before PL starts) might show their capabilities and that they could stake a first team claim - a suggested list might be :

Troy Parrott (striker) - no intro needed. At 18 he will be raring to show he's good enough

Dennis Cirkin (LB/CB) - Physically well developed 18 year old, looks good at youth level getting up and down left flank, one appearance on first team bench.

Luis Binks (CB) - Physically well developed CB, 18 year old good al round defender with good Alderweireld like long passes

TJ Eyoma (CB/RB) - 20 year old who looked good in pre-season 2018 but entered the no play zone of Poch first team training and a couple of token appearances. Yet to recover his 2018 form, so all to prove again in remaining part of season.

Harvey White (DM) - 18 year old looked good in 2nd position of LB in pre-season 2019. Good set piece taker.

Jamie Bowden (DM) - 19 year old, went on preseason 2019 with one brief appearance. Carrick like DM

A few others might make the cut such as J'Neil Llloyd Bennett (18 year old speedy winger/striker) or even Kion Etete (striker) who joined from Notts County last summer now starting to look the part aftera few months settling in. Plus of course Jack Roles (AM) who is developing nicely on loan at Cambridge Untd.

And with Tanganga showing he could be decent last preseason imo there is an easy route for the coach to take a look at the most promising say 6 candidates over an extended period of 4 or 5 matches every preseason to select the one)s) who we wishes to join the first team. And its pretty much risk free audition for the coach and club.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

So if I take everything you have written is 100% correct that Japhet Tanganga has not played for Spurs first team this season.

Or that Oliver Skipp didn't play last season.

And in both cases Spurs fans were very accepting of the youngsters performances, and equally some errors (although its worth saying that experienced players costing multi millions of pounds also make mistakes in matches )

I'm not saying its easy to juggle time in the first team, and elsewhere would suggest we make better use of the loan system to give youngsters more first team experience to minimise the jump from u23 youth football to Spurs first team but it is clearly not an insurmountable gap - and maybe Tanganga's 5 matches for u23's v League 1 and League 2 sides in the EFL trophy helps bridge that gap a little.

As I say I think its an essential piece of squad management to both buy players and develop your own in parallel - and makes good financial sense as well as the need to fill some of the squad with Club trained and HG players..

In short, I've no idea if it's better to loan a player out or keep him at Hotspur Way or have them play 15mins in the Kangaroo Cup.

You presume that Sjipp would have played had he got a loan. How did Clarke's loan go this season? or Edwards last? Loans depend on the club he's loaned to, the system they play and of course if they even play. I get that in some cases even if they don't play they've gained experience at another club, perhaps this was the sole intent of their development???

 

[Spursidol]

In short, I've no idea if it's better to loan a player out or keep him at Hotspur Way or have them play 15mins in the Kangaroo Cup.

You presume that Sjipp would have played had he got a loan. How did Clarke's loan go this season? or Edwards last? Loans depend on the club he's loaned to, the system they play and of course if they even play. I get that in some cases even if they don't play they've gained experience at another club, perhaps this was the sole intent of their development???

Key point is playing between 18 and 21 - its through playing they get experience and learn things.

Sure I'm sure coaches teach players with a blackboard and chalk (or the modern equivalent) together with videos etc but unless they are laying and practicing things the coaches teach them, its not good for their development

So staying at Hotspur Way .is good - if he's getting minutes as Tanganga is right now. If that stops on 1 February and JM says no more play for you this season, then it would be better if Tanganga went on loan this TW. But I hope that's not the case.

If Skipp is nopt going to play in 2nd half of the season, a loan where he plays is probably best route for Skipp.

But this is where Spurs are now behind the times, they need to get more professional with loans starting with employing a Loan Manager to liaise with clubs agreeing types of players they want and getting agreement they will play plus getting someone to do a mentoring (or even a parental or older brother role) to help the youngster find accommodation, ensure they know how to feed themselves correctly and all the 101 things young people of 18 wont necessarily know. Plus monitoring the players match experience during the loan period and talking to the club who loaned the player etc

 

[BangkokSpud]

Key point is playing between 18 and 21 - its through playing they get experience and learn things.

Sure I'm sure coaches teach players with a blackboard and chalk (or the modern equivalent) together with videos etc but unless they are laying and practicing things the coaches teach them, its not good for their development

So staying at Hotspur Way .is good - if he's getting minutes as Tanganga is right now. If that stops on 1 February and JM says no more play for you this season, then it would be better if Tanganga went on loan this TW. But I hope that's not the case.

If Skipp is nopt going to play in 2nd half of the season, a loan where he plays is probably best route for Skipp.

But this is where Spurs are now behind the times, they need to get more professional with loans starting with employing a Loan Manager to liaise with clubs agreeing types of players they want and getting agreement they will play plus getting someone to do a mentoring (or even a parental or older brother role) to help the youngster find accommodation, ensure they know how to feed themselves correctly and all the 101 things young people of 18 wont necessarily know. Plus monitoring the players match experience during the loan period and talking to the club who loaned the player etc

Spurs were actually king of the loans along with Chelsea (but not at that crazy level over 100) before Poch changed all that. Go back to 14/15 and we had 14 players out on loan, it was 16 the year before and 19 the year before that. Poch put a stop to all that preferring the in-house and under 23 structures, in his last three years the number of loans players were just 3, 2 and 3 ...

Fully agree we need to get back into the loans business, it will be interesting to see what Mourinho does this summer.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

 

[The Swellhead Spur]

Will be interesting to see how he does this season, he basically had a free role in the championship position wise and relys on his strength

 

[The Swellhead Spur]