League Cup 2020/2021

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--------------------------------------Gazzaniga---------------------------------
-----Tanganga------Carter-Vickers-----------Foyth----------Rose ?------
--------------------------White----------------Marsh---------------------
--------------Fernandez---------------------------------------Clarke------
-------------------------New Forward?---------Sessegnon------------------
Be it Orient or Plymouth; if they go full strength that line-up loses.
 
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Be it Orient or Plymouth; if they go full strength that line-up loses.
I guess it depends on who our striker is but almost all those players, if not all would be better than what LO or Plymouth puts outs.

Leyton Orient is in League 2 and Plymouth just barely got promoted out of League 2 outside of George Marsh each one of those players in our line-up are quality Championship side players at least.

Do you think their having played more together gives LO/Plymouth that much of an advantage?
 
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Airfixx

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I guess it depends on who our striker is but almost all those players, if not all would be better than what LO or Plymouth puts outs.

Leyton Orient is in League 2 and Plymouth just barely got promoted out of League 2 outside of George Marsh each one of those players in our line-up are quality Championship side players at least.

Do you think their having played more together gives LO/Plymouth that much of an advantage?
So long as they went full strength, the coherent team with giant-killing spirit so often prevails..... Colchester wasn't that long ago was it?

Now, if we genuinely think that's the strongest team we can afford to muster and peeps are fine with 1 trophy being off the table then I guess fine be prepared to take the hit.

(Anyway, weren't you saying that sports science is somewhat bollocks and that players shouldn't need much rest in the early phases of the season? .....If so, why bother rotating?)


Personally, I think it's a quandary, but to go so weak when most peeps are determined that we "must" win a trophy this year seems like a conflict of interests to me.... Not to mention unnecessary when, outside of our first XI you can still afford to pick:

CB: One of Dier & Sanchez
CM: GLC / Nbombele / Dele / PEH / Winks / Sissoko <<<< Whoever is first XI you still have 3 to pick from.
Wide:
Son / Lucas / Lamela / Bergwijn <<<< Ditto 2 from 4.
 
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So long as they went full strength, the coherent team with giant-killing spirit so often prevails..... Colchester wasn't that long ago was it?

Now, if we genuinely think that's the strongest team we can afford to muster and peeps are fine with 1 trophy being off the table then I guess fine be prepared to take the hit.
i don't think it often prevails at all. The teams that last the longest in these Cups are almost always the top teams. I do think that the upsets last longer in our memories though so it seems like they happen more often.

If you put that team against either potential opponents the best 11 players will all be on our side and by quite a large margin. The team we are facing will not be that coherent as they will have just started their season and be rusty as well.

If you play the game with our line-up we win 9 times out of 10, we are that much better than the best that Leyton Orient or Plymouth could put out there. Even if they combined their teams we would be significantly better.

That doesn't guarantee us a win but the most likely outcome by far is us not only winning but winning by multiple goals.

(Anyway, weren't you saying that sports science is somewhat bollocks and that players shouldn't need much rest in the early phases of the season? .....If so, why bother rotating?)
That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was making two points 1. I think having a couple of players from the 1st team playing a midweek game against a League 2 side isn't likely to result in them breaking down and 2. that fans focus too much on pre-season game time when talking about players coming back- not relevant to this topic but another concern someone had about Kane not being ready for the season if he didn't have a full 90 minute pre-season game in.

I think too often fans get worked up about a little extra work that players might have and in this case having say Son and Moura play in this game as well as the EPL games likely doesn't affect them all that negatively. Having them do that all year long might.
 
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I'm sure Mourinho will give this competition a great deal of serious attention this season but my concerns still exist about the position of goalkeeper if Hart becomes number 2. Any future opponents watching the Watford game will already be planning on shots from outside the box at every possible opportunity.

When you have a keeper who quite obviously has confidence problems then you'll pepper him with shots from anywhere you can in the hope at least one slips through. Once that happens he's an open invitation to shoot on sight.

I honestly am trying to stay 'open minded' but I'd hate to see us knocked out in the later stages due to a really silly error.
 
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Airfixx

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i don't think it often prevails at all. The teams that last the longest in these Cups are almost always the top teams. I do think that the upsets last longer in our memories though so it seems like they happen more often.

If you put that team against either potential opponents the best 11 players will all be on our side and by quite a large margin. The team we are facing will not be that coherent as they will have just started their season and be rusty as well.

If you play the game with our line-up we win 9 times out of 10, we are that much better than the best that Leyton Orient or Plymouth could put out there. Even if they combined their teams we would be significantly better.

That doesn't guarantee us a win but the most likely outcome by far is us not only winning but winning by multiple goals.

That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was making two points 1. I think having a couple of players from the 1st team playing a midweek game against a League 2 side isn't likely to result in them breaking down and 2. that fans focus too much on pre-season game time when talking about players coming back- not relevant to this topic but another concern someone had about Kane not being ready for the season if he didn't have a full 90 minute pre-season game in.

I think too often fans get worked up about a little extra work that players might have and in this case having say Son and Moura play in this game as well as the EPL games likely doesn't affect them all that negatively. Having them do that all year long might.
Point remains; why go weaker than we have to?

A hypothetical first XI of:

Hugo
Doherty / Toby / Dier / Davies
PEH / GLC
Bergwin / Dele / Son
Kane

Still leaves

Gazz
??? / Dav / Tanganga / Cirkin
Winks / Sissoko
Lamela / Ndombele / Sessengon
Lucas
 
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I'm sure Mourinho will give this competition a great deal of serious attention this season but my concerns still exist about the position of goalkeeper if Hart becomes number 2. Any future opponents watching the Watford game will already be planning on shots from outside the box at every possible opportunity.

When you have a keeper who quite obviously has confidence problems then you'll pepper him with shots from anywhere you can in the hope at least one slips through. Once that happens he's an open invitation to shoot on sight.

I honestly am trying to stay 'open minded' but I'd hate to see us knocked out in the later stages due to a really silly error.
Don't worry mate, he won't be playing.
 
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Airfixx

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I'm sure Mourinho will give this competition a great deal of serious attention this season but my concerns still exist about the position of goalkeeper if Hart becomes number 2. Any future opponents watching the Watford game will already be planning on shots from outside the box at every possible opportunity.

When you have a keeper who quite obviously has confidence problems then you'll pepper him with shots from anywhere you can in the hope at least one slips through. Once that happens he's an open invitation to shoot on sight.

I honestly am trying to stay 'open minded' but I'd hate to see us knocked out in the later stages due to a really silly error.
It's fair to assume that Jose is sizing up Gazz vs Hart over pre-season... He won't prioritise Hart unless he concludes he is the more viable option.
 
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Point remains; why go weaker than we have to?

A hypothetical first XI of:

Hugo
Doherty / Toby / Dier / Davies
PEH / GLC
Bergwin / Dele / Son
Kane

Still leaves

Gazz
??? / Dav / Tanganga / Cirkin
Winks / Sissoko
Lamela / Ndombele / Sessengon
Lucas
Isn't the problem that most of the guys in your 2nd team will have to go play in EL 2 days before the League Cup game?

Or am I missing something?
 
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Don't worry mate, he won't be playing.
I sincerely wish I could share your confidence over that mate but I have a feeling an agreement is in place for him to have a certain number of appearances next season to boost his basic salary and they will be in specific cup competitions. Hope I'm completely wrong.
 
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Airfixx

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Isn't the problem that most of the guys in your 2nd team will have to go play in EL 2 days before the League Cup game?

Or am I missing something?
Play the A team then. : P

Seriously, however you wanna slice the 2 teams up, yet again the point remains..... Playing a ramshackle C-team is asking for trouble.
 
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I sincerely wish I could share your confidence over that mate but I have a feeling an agreement is in place for him to have a certain number of appearances next season to boost his basic salary and they will be in specific cup competitions. Hope I'm completely wrong.
Didn't think of that.

In my mind Gazza would of been asking a lot of questions as to where he stands. Convo went something like this;

Gazza: So boss, you've signed Hart. Where does that leave me ?

Jose: Don't worry, you're still NO.2

G: I hope so cos Fulham are interested.

J: I'm not selling you because you're my NO. 2

G: Fair enough, I'll stay then.

Maybe Hart will get the odd appearance but not against anyone decent.
:avbpray:
 
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Play the A team then. : P

Seriously, however you wanna slice the 2 teams up, yet again the point remains..... Playing a ramshackle C-team is asking for trouble.
I agree for the next round, against Leyton Orient/Plymouth I think we should be fine. Just make sure the team is ready to go and takes it seriously. But the boots to them early so that they can cruise in the 2nd half.
 
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Airfixx

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I agree for the next round, against Leyton Orient/Plymouth I think we should be fine. Just make sure the team is ready to go and takes it seriously. But the boots to them early so that they can cruise in the 2nd half.
You (and a ramshackle C-team against an up for it, familiarised A-team) offer scant re-assurance.....

We've struggled against Wycombe, Shrewsbury & Colchester in this cup in recent years.

You're being strangely complacent for someone that ultimately doesn't rate more than a handful of our squad.

There's literally NO logic to going weaker than our depth can afford.
 
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You (and a ramshackle C-team against an up for it, familiarised A-team) offer scant re-assurance.....

We've struggled against Wycombe, Shrewsbury & Colchester in this cup in recent years.

You're being strangely complacent for someone that ultimately doesn't rate more than a handful of our squad.

There's literally NO logic to going weaker than our depth can afford.
Well we can start with dismissing the BS notion that I only rate a handful of the squad, it is not true at all and adds nothing. Even if it were I rate our whole squad as being better than anything Leyton Orient or Plymouth can put out.

Worrying about what other teams with different players does is silly other than to use as examples of what can happen if you don't put out a full effort. None of the teams that lost to those teams lost because they were a weak side, they lost because the effort and focus weren't there.

Again any team made up of mainly senior team players will be much better than whatever LO/Plymouth puts out. If you just looked at the two rosters and took away fear of what has happened in the past or could happen 10 out of 10 people would take our team to win.
 
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Well all I can say it’s going to be a big year for our fringe players. They will get the chance to impress so hopefully Mourinho is drilling that into the squad this preseason and hopefully those players are going to step up to the mark. It’s imperative though we get a second striker. I do not want Kane or Son anywhere near some of these games
You have got the real problem we have reserves to cover defence and midfield but it is scoring goals even against the likes of Colchester or Norwich that is the problem . Last season showed us that without Son or Kane we struggle to score. Time is running out to get a back up striker and 0-0 away to these teams is a real concern leaving us at the mercy of penalties.
 
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Airfixx

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Well we can start with dismissing the BS notion that I only rate a handful of the squad, it is not true at all and adds nothing. Even if it were I rate our whole squad as being better than anything Leyton Orient or Plymouth can put out.

Worrying about what other teams with different players does is silly other than to use as examples of what can happen if you don't put out a full effort. None of the teams that lost to those teams lost because they were a weak side, they lost because the effort and focus weren't there.

Again any team made up of mainly senior team players will be much better than whatever LO/Plymouth puts out. If you just looked at the two rosters and took away fear of what has happened in the past or could happen 10 out of 10 people would take our team to win.
Don't be a dick... I'm not talking out of fear.

"There's literally NO logic to going weaker than our depth can afford...... "

Provide some if you can; otherwise let's just accept I'm right.
 
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Don't be a dick... I'm not talking out of fear.

"There's literally NO logic to going weaker than our depth can afford...... "

Provide some if you can; otherwise let's just accept I'm right.
i wasn't being a dick just stating how fans (and I include all fans not just you) often get overly worried about these types of games because of a few losses when the reality is in the vast majority of these games the PL team wins easily.

The reason to go weaker than our depth can afford is to ensure we don't slip up in other areas. I'm not sure that I ever even disagreed with that statement either and that we can easily beat that team with a lesser team than our starting 11 so no need to play them.

I was talking about whether the team you listed would beat Leyton Orient/Plymouth or not, you seemed to think they would not. So not sure what the bolded statement has to do with anything.
 
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Airfixx

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i wasn't being a dick just stating how fans (and I include all fans not just you) often get overly worried about these types of games because of a few losses when the reality is in the vast majority of these games the PL team wins easily.
I/they have every right to be cautious because history proves one should be... You dismissing the difficulties our fringe players have suffered in the last few years in the exact same circumstances is complacent; if not slightly arrogant.

I'm not sure that I ever even disagreed with that statement either and that we can easily beat that team with a lesser team than our starting 11 so no need to play them.

I was talking about whether the team you listed would beat Leyton Orient/Plymouth or not, you seemed to think they would not. So not sure what the bolded statement has to do with anything.
Then it seems your initial contradiction was off-piste...... Perhaps you've just been arguing for the sake of it; I'm not sure.

Synopsis:

Someone else suggested what was essentially a C team.... I dissagreed; stating that should at least play a B team.... You disagreed multiple times over the course of multiple posts.

Make of it what you will..... I'll leave it here.
 
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