Playing all 3 them together has rarely happened that's why.
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Playing all 3 them together has rarely happened that's why.
In short, were you expecting better from him yesterday? I'll extend that to this season too
Do you think he's capable to perform better than he did yesterday and so far this season?
Under what circumstances would you expect him to perform to meet your expectations? (What exactly are your expectations of him?)
Would like to think I'd essentially covered all that already, but....
I hoped for better vs Everton, but given circumstances and position deployed; not "expected", no.
"Expectations" don't come into it for me in the context of this debate, but thus far we've seen a hard working, direct player capable of moments of magic... I believe we can see this on a more consistent basis. Played as a wide forward with some creativity and form around him he'd at least enjoy a solid platform to impress.
what is his best position?
he crosses poorly, doesn't get to the byline, rarely takes his man on in a wide position, hangs onto the ball to long, doesn't hold it up well, doesn't use his pace effectively.
He gets stuck in, particularly in the air, although I don't think he presses well.
He finishes well, has a good shot and I've seen him display some great natural ability - I just don't think he's got a good footballing brain.
His hattrick last season was incredible, but 2 of the goals probably came when were not really taking a tactical approach, instead throwing caution to the wind and just going for it.
To me he's the sort of player we used to by, one that's on a downward trajectory, or hasn't made it or fulfilled promise, hoping that they'll do it or rediscover it with us. A ginola, an adebeyour, a dos santos. You might get flashes, but there is normally a reason none of the top clubs want those players.
he crosses poorly, doesn't get to the byline, rarely takes his man on in a wide position, hangs onto the ball to long, doesn't hold it up well, doesn't use his pace effectively.
He gets stuck in, particularly in the air, although I don't think he presses well.
He finishes well, has a good shot and I've seen him display some great natural ability - I just don't think he's got a good footballing brain.
His hattrick last season was incredible, but 2 of the goals probably came when were not really taking a tactical approach, instead throwing caution to the wind and just going for it.
To me he's the sort of player we used to by, one that's on a downward trajectory, or hasn't made it or fulfilled promise, hoping that they'll do it or rediscover it with us. A ginola, an adebeyour, a dos santos. You might get flashes, but there is normally a reason none of the top clubs want those players.
Fair points.
Where did this notion that we can't play Son, Kane & Lucas together come from? From 1 shitty Newcastle game? I can absolutely be wrong, but i can't remember a run of games where these three started enough to say "this isn't working."
i don't know why it matters that he scored goals when Kane was out. Big picture is that he CAN score goals. it's not like the team is bursting with them.
Tough to talk about formations and tactics when the current manager doesn't seem to believe in either this season. We can talk about formations and personal all we want, but no one seems like they know what they're doing or supposed to be doing out there this season...
You should really go back an watch some of his highlights.
I'm not trying to say he's the perfect player or that he's going to fix everything, i'm saying he's a player that can make things happen That's the kind of players we need in our current situation.
Surely you expect something of him, or why else would you want him to start? You have to think that he has something positive to add to the team, something better than we have currently, that in itself would be the reasoning behind why you would prefer his selection over another.
But why does he has to have in form players around him for him to perform? We can, I hope, confidently say that both Kane and Son have performed whilst playing with out of form players around them. It would also be of a concern that you think that he can only perform if those around him are on form. (I'm playing devil's advocate on this point, I get where you are coming from but we have players out of form all over the pitch, it's fair to say whoever is selected the situation is the same for any player, as well as those already on the pitch, where does it end?)
The player, any player, that's going to get his selection nailed down is the player that elevates his performance above the rest. I'm not saying this is an easy task to accomplish and I totally get the reasoning but there has to be something about the performance that says "I'm your man". An example is I would say, Sanchez, he easily merits a selection just now, whilst still improvement to be made he's outperformed both Vertonghen and Toby this season and he's playing with out of form players around him. He's also played on both the right and left side of CB so yesterday against Everton it can be argued he's slightly out of position too.
He's a senior player, not a kid learning his craft. The onus should be more on him to be up to speed than say Skipp coming in and taking the team by the scruff of the neck and elevating the players around him through his performance. I'm not putting that expectation on him though, would just be nice to see a Snr pro performance anytime soon. If it's good then I would pray it's good enough to create competition for that place, has the other guy worried that he will not get his position back in the side. This is what I want to see (but nothing I've seen in the years he's been a Spurs player says that he's achieved that).
Is it really a surprise his form and confidence is shot, the way he's been treated?
But that's the problem; that principle, which I fully agree with, simply doesn't apply across the board. It only applies to the fringe players.
If that is our mantra, we categorically have to drop Aurier, Eriksen, Toby, Rose and Winks.
Mainly just based on my own recollection of watching all 3 last season. They seem to occupy each other’s space too often.
Maybe playing together more would help??
But generally Son and Moura both switch off defensively- having them both on the pitch at the same time has an impact.
No, if there isn't another player that is deemed better though! I appreciate that this is the subjective part of the argument where one person will view player 'x' better than player 'y'.
So in an effort to interoperate the players, you mention
In my opinion, Aurier was our MOTM against Everton, are you saying he's dropped for Foyth or KWP now (I do actually expect rotation with FB's it's what Poch does if he can).
Eriksen was dropped until Lamela got injured, I think he's got little option (I acknowledge the argument of others than want to squeeze Lucas in inserted of Eriksen).
Toby may well be dropped as Foyth has returned from injury but he has also been dropped for Sanchez.
Rose was dropped for Davies yesterday (Davies has been injured so hope this might be more of a thing, still think Poch will do some rotation for this position).
Winks is a conundrum and also I think tactical dependant on the oppo. With Ndombele with only 60mins in his legs he does play, Sissoko appears the only constant. Winks does get subbed most games.
yeah as per my other reply.
I do think we need 3x better defensive minded midfielders to allow for playing all 3 together.
Due to the factors I've repeatedly listed, I don't believe i have a clear view of what he is truly capable of.
I'm not obliged to form a definitive judgement on him until I feel I have.
Only elite players are likely to carry entire team.... Right now it's not merely individuals off form; the entire team is functioning poorly.... Why would a player trying to establish themselves within a set-up be expected to lift the larger entity? IMO, to expect that is unrealistic. Even more so if that's expected with him typically playing out of position.
It's not one factor counting against him:
- Typically out of position
- Out of form team
- Often played in hotch-potch line-ups
Even when he has shone (lifted us?), he hasn't retained his position and been afforded a run in the team...
(I assume you subscribe to the idea of momentum through consistent playing time.)
Like I said previously... Let's resume if he gets a fair crack and by that I mean:
Son / Kane / Lucas
...And a reasonably functioning midfield behind them.
I think (hope) with the addition of a formidable DM the following would be lethal:
GLC / DM / Ndombele
Lucas / Kane / Son
Lucas / Kane / Son
Yes please !
Why the fuck not throw Dier in there?
GLC / Dier/ Ndombele
Lucas / Kane / Son
Are we scared of being embarrassed this season??? Too late for that.
I understand Lucas and Son could be a liability defensively, but that should be better with coaching!!
Even if they are, keep our fullbacks back in a more defensive role. It's not like they are offering a fucking thing going forward.
Yep.
I think that has more potential for the future than anything else. I Like the energy GLC has shown to date.
Pretty awesome, Sancho instead of Lucas would be out of this world (and highly unlikely).
The thing is, we probably actually agree, are only coming at it from different angles.
100% agree - Aurier was probably our best player yesterday, but he's been execrable in two or three games already this season. His punishment for that - more game time. And actually, as an aside, yes, if Poch does see Foyth as our new RB, I'd rather see him playing. My suspicion is that Poch hasn't got a fucking clue what to do with Foyth and has him earmarked for RB, CB, DM or maybe even RM. Maybe he's holding him back to play in tandem with Sess?
Eriksen I think still plays, regardless of Lamela. He's just 100% Pochetinno's man and I think he'll die on that hill. In many ways the opposite of Lucas, who Poch couldn't give a fuck about.
Davies has played better than Danny in every game so far this season. He obviously has his flaws (get's caught running back), but he's our best option and I think him and Sess could actually be a very useful option on the left.
Toby, I have no opinion. I just want him gone.
You're 100% right that Lucas is fighting for a place where we are strongest and definitely doesn't start when all are fit. I just, personally, think that some of the criticism levelled at him applies just as equally to other players (Son needs to learn to pass more). And I also think Poch has no ability to get the most out of him, partly because he can't be arsed, but partly because he only knows one way to play the game.