Moussa Sissoko

[TeamSpirit™]

Agree that he does fit the classic Jose player, no doubt about that at all.

My only brief thought was that as he isn't the........ (I'm searching for the right word)...... "most accomplished" DM, he could of been one of the players Jose was looking to replace.

He isn’t a DM at all really. He’s a roving disruptive CM who at his best can gain yards in transition, and unnerve opponents with his physicality.

I honestly think Gedson was an attempt to move on from Sissoko, but he’s clearly not up to standard (at least yet)

 

[Matt1882]

Moussa Sissoko is France no.31 in terms of caps won.
France, who, along with Spain and German, have been one of the 3 most successfull national teams in his era.

But apparently we all don't think he's very good.
He's also racked up 441 top flight appearances at club level.

 

[TheSpurEst]

He isn’t a DM at all really. He’s a roving disruptive CM who at his best can gain yards in transition, and unnerve opponents with his physicality.

I honestly think Gedson was an attempt to move on from Sissoko, but he’s clearly not up to standard (at least yet)

Haha, disruptive CM, I think you coined a winning phrase here, mate.
One side can say that term with hint of Sissoko disrupting opposition attacks.
And those who have eyes and have seen few technically decent players can say the same thing referring to him disrupting our flow of the game.

Brilliant

 

[TheSpurEst]

Yeah, agree with that.

We all knew that for at least 2 years we needed a quality DM, we finally got it when Jose bought PEH. Even then some people saw it as a "risk", that he wasn't good enough, and said that he wasn't a true DM.

Why we didn't get one before is open to question. Maybe Poch was "too picky", maybe our scouting team weren't able to identify one (in which case they are in the wrong job), maybe one wasn't available for the right money (one for the Levy haters).
I have said previously and many times, that we seemed intent on buying AMs, when we needed a RB, LB, CB, DM and a back up striker.
All of which we got when Jose came in. So it appears that;
A) Maybe our scouting team wasn't the issue
and
B) Maybe Levy wasn't the issue either.

All this seems to suggest that getting a top quality DM is not as easy as some people think it is.
It is one of the hardest positions to fill, imo. Behind a striker and 'keeper obviously, but still. Unless you have a bottomless pit of cash, that is.

But the fact remains that Sissoko has seen off all competition for his spot (maybe not a high bar, seeing our recruitment) and is still a first team choice. All this under different managers, both domestic and international.
He's played 534 games for clubs in the top divisions of 2 countries and has 65 caps for one of the best international teams in the world.

He'll be 32 in the summer so definitely needs replacing soon, and you can bet you're bottom dollar that, when he is, the haters will be saying "See, told you Sissoko was shit. Jose saw through the fraud".

All I'm saying is that maybe, just maybe, he's not as bad as some people make out.

I agree with most of the 1st part of your post!

But come on, finding good DM for reasonable money is not nearly as difficult as some other positions. PEH came for peanuts, Wanyama came for even less peanuts, we got Scotty almost for free (though he was older). And there are many other examples - look how swiftly Leicester replaced Kante with Ndidi for example. I honestly think there are lot more difficult positions to fill, specially considering budget.

And in the end you get to good concusion - he has fended off competition that has mostly been down to really poor recruitment. When we were actually flying high and performing, then Sissoko was warming the bench. He is symptom of our decline in quality unfortunately.

So yea, he has played 534 times, but plainly obvious fact is that he does not have even closely enough ability to have ever played for top 8 side in EPL... if it were not for really poor recruiting by us. That's a fluke (both, buying him and never replacing him with better footballer), not a proof.
And I would not take his national side games as a much proof. If you take just this number as measure of quality, you most likely would have to conclude that Sissoko has 10x ability of Ndombele... who has got 10x less caps for the same national side.

 

[iz futbal]

And I would not take his national side games as a much proof. If you take just this number as measure of quality, you most likely would have to conclude that Sissoko has 10x ability of Ndombele... who has got 10x less caps for the same national side.

While Sissoko has served us well for a while now, Ndombele has only just begun to find some form. Ability wise Tanguy is obviously ahead, but application wise hes just getting there.

 

[stevee]

Because our scouting and recruitment team is horrendously incompetent?

Nah, that doesn't wash.

The same scouting team that got a RB, LB, CB, DM and a back up striker in the window.
Maybe some of those recruitments aren't top quality (Doherty e.g) but it's supposed to be easy to replace Sissoko and we still haven't done it in 5 years and 8 windows.

 

[stevee]

I agree with most of the 1st part of your post!

But come on, finding good DM for reasonable money is not nearly as difficult as some other positions. PEH came for peanuts, Wanyama came for even less peanuts, we got Scotty almost for free (though he was older). And there are many other examples - look how swiftly Leicester replaced Kante with Ndidi for example. I honestly think there are lot more difficult positions to fill, specially considering budget.

And in the end you get to good concusion - he has fended off competition that has mostly been down to really poor recruitment. When we were actually flying high and performing, then Sissoko was warming the bench. He is symptom of our decline in quality unfortunately.

So yea, he has played 534 times, but plainly obvious fact is that he does not have even closely enough ability to have ever played for top 8 side in EPL... if it were not for really poor recruiting by us. That's a fluke (both, buying him and never replacing him with better footballer), not a proof.
And I would not take his national side games as a much proof. If you take just this number as measure of quality, you most likely would have to conclude that Sissoko has 10x ability of Ndombele... who has got 10x less caps for the same national side.

"if it were not for really poor recruiting by us."

Nah, that doesn't wash.

The same scouting team that got a RB, LB, CB, DM and a back up striker in the window.
Maybe some of those recruitments aren't top quality (Doherty e.g) but it's supposed to be easy to replace Sissoko and we still haven't done it in 5 years and 8 windows.

"And I would not take his national side games as a much proof. If you take just this number as measure of quality, you most likely would have to conclude that Sissoko has 10x ability of Ndombele... who has got 10x less caps for the same national side."

You're comparison of the number of caps one is a false one. Sissoko is 31 (32 in August) and Ndombele is only 24. Let's see how many caps Ndombele has when he's 32, then we can make a true comparison.
Not that Ndomdele and Sissoko are comparable in any way.

"When we were actually flying high and performing, then Sissoko was warming the bench. "

2016-17 34 app finished 2nd, subbed on 22 times, subbed off 9 times
2017-18 47 app finished 3rd, subbed on 21, subbed off 12
2018-19 44 app, finished 4th, reached CL final, subbed on 5, subbed off 13
2019-20 35 app, finished 6th, subbed on 3, subbed off 5
This season 25 app so far, currently 5th, reached LC final, subbed on 8, subbed off 4

185 app for us, subbed on 53 times, subbed off 43 times.
As I said previously, an important squad player.

Not bad for a player that can't tackle, pass, track runners, head the ball, switches off, is a liability, a waste of space, does nothing for the team in defence or attack and is just a terrible player that is so easily replaced.

 

[bus-conductor]

"if it were not for really poor recruiting by us."


"And I would not take his national side games as a much proof. If you take just this number as measure of quality, you most likely would have to conclude that Sissoko has 10x ability of Ndombele... who has got 10x less caps for the same national side."

You're comparison of the number of caps one is a false one. Sissoko is 31 (32 in August) and Ndombele is only 24. Let's see how many caps Ndombele has when he's 32, then we can make a true comparison.
Not that Ndomdele and Sissoko are comparable in any way.

"When we were actually flying high and performing, then Sissoko was warming the bench. "

2016-17 34 app finished 2nd, subbed on 22 times, subbed off 9 times
2017-18 47 app finished 3rd, subbed on 21, subbed off 12
2018-19 44 app, finished 4th, reached CL final, subbed on 5, subbed off 13
2019-20 35 app, finished 6th, subbed on 3, subbed off 5
This season 25 app so far, currently 5th, reached LC final, subbed on 8, subbed off 4

185 app for us, subbed on 53 times, subbed off 43 times.
As I said previously, an important squad player.

Not bad for a player that can't tackle, pass, track runners, head the ball, switches off, is a liability, a waste of space, does nothing for the team in defence or attack and is just a terrible player that is so easily replaced.

Stop using appearances, it's meaningless, and appearance can be 1 minute or 95.

I’ve categorically proven, there is a direct correlation between the increased minutes Sissoko played and our deterioration as a team. Look back a page or two. That’s not all on him, he’s not the only mediocre/poor player we’ve bought and continually used, but his mediocrity, along with those others, is the reason we stopped Playing good football and being a good football team, and went from 2nd to 5th via 14th, getting our unsackable manager sacked along the way.

Saying why haven’t we replaced him is disingenuous and doesn't mean we shouldn't have. Why haven't we done a lot of things? Why did we go from playing great football - pre Sissoko playing more - to playing shit football for a lot of the last three years?

We tried to sell him for two years and couldn’t because no fucker wanted him, then Poch started using him more (before he ended up on the dole) largely because of a lack of other - experienced - options because we’d lost all our CM’s and had failed to replace any of them - and it didn't work out well for Poch did it.

Mourinho using him, under the circumstances is hardly an endorsement, he's got plenty of history on his CV of playing poor players (Fellaini, Linguard etc) over better ones. It's even dawning on Mourinho, who hasn't started him in a league game since his shit show against Leicester at home 5 league games ago.

Why did it take city two years to replace Kompany, why have they not bought another CF, probably cost them a title, why did Klopp fuck about with Mignolet, Karius and Lovren for so long before upgrading them? They lost three finals and a league title during that time. Why haven't Barcalona upgraded Braithwaite? Why haven't Bayern Munich bought a proper RB.

Football Teams get loads of things wrong for a multitude of reasons, ands often find themselves with poor options that for various reasons stick around. Doesn't mean those poor options are good or shouldn't have been upgraded.

 

[stevee]

Stop using appearances, it's meaningless, and appearance can be 1 minute or 95.

I’ve categorically proven, there is a direct correlation between the increased minutes Sissoko played and our deterioration as a team. Look back a page or two. That’s not all on him, he’s not the only mediocre/poor player we’ve bought and continually used, but his mediocrity, along with those others, is the reason we stopped Playing good football and being a good football team, and went from 2nd to 5th via 14th, getting our unsackable manager sacked along the way.

Saying why haven’t we replaced him is disingenuous and doesn't mean we shouldn't have. Why haven't we done a lot of things? Why did we go from playing great football - pre Sissoko playing more - to playing shit football for a lot of the last three years?

We tried to sell him for two years and couldn’t because no fucker wanted him, then Poch started using him more (before he ended up on the dole) largely because of a lack of other options because we’d lost all our CM’s and had failed to replace any of them.

Mourinho using him, under the circumstances is hardly an endorsement, he's got plenty of history on his CV of playing poor players (Fellaini, Linguard etc) over better ones. It's even dawning on Mourinho, who hasn't started him in a league game since his shit show against Leicester at home 5 league games ago.

Why did it take city two years to replace Kompany, why have they not bought another CF, probably cost them a title, why did Klopp fuck about with Mignolet, Karius and Lovren for so long before upgrading them? They lost three finals and a league title during that time. Why haven't Barcalona upgraded Braithwaite? Why haven't Bayern Munich bought a proper RB.

Football Teams get loads of things wrong for a multitude of reasons, ands often find themselves with poor options that for various reasons stick around. Doesn't mean those poor options are good or shouldn't have been upgraded.

All you've proven, time and again, is your bias against him. You are unable, or unwilling to see the things he does do well in individual games.

Remember this ?

I could have sworn Sissoko came on, where did he go?

Won the ball for Lo Celso's goal

You were probably too busy bashing out another anti-Sissoko post to see it. Oh well.

"Football Teams get loads of things wrong for a multitude of reasons, ands often find themselves with poor options that for various reasons stick around. Doesn't mean those poor options are good or shouldn't have been upgraded."

A bit of a contradiction with your previous statement.

I don't care what you or anyone else says, It would be an absolute piece of piss to improve on him.

I'm so glad that you agree with me;

They think that it's easy to sign better players, when it isn't. So many factors come into play and its not like playing FM on a laptop.

He can, and will be. improved upon at some point. Maybe by converting a box to box midfielder as we did with PEH.

We ALL know that Sissoko isn't the best DM in the world, or the PL, or even at Spurs.
On the other hand we all know, well those with a bit of sense anyway, that neither is he the worst player in the PL either, as some have claimed.

 

[bus-conductor]

All you've proven, time and again, is your bias against him.

What I have done is back up my opinion with data, video and anecdotal evidence, lots and lots of it.

You are unable, or unwilling to see the things he does do well in individual games.

Remind me Stevee, what exactly is it that he does "well" that I am unwilling or unable to see?

I and others have described how he odes things badly, how he hides from the ball and points towards others, how inept he is technically, how he doesn't press very well, read the game well, tackle much, intercept much, and backed it up with data, descriptive in game examples, I've even made freeze frames and videos and posted them to highlight it.

That isn't vague bias, it's meticulous and extensive.

Remember this ?


You were probably too busy bashing out another anti-Sissoko post to see it. Oh well.

"Football Teams get loads of things wrong for a multitude of reasons, ands often find themselves with poor options that for various reasons stick around. Doesn't mean those poor options are good or shouldn't have been upgraded."

A bit of a contradiction with your previous statement.

Read it again, and you will see it isn't a contradiction. I am saying there are literally loads of players, of all ages and prices, we could buy who would be better CM's than Sissoko, but there are various reasons we we - and all clubs - don't always efficiently manage and upgrade their teams.

He can, and will be. improved upon at some point.

We ALL know that Sissoko isn't the best DM in the world, or the PL, or even at Spurs.

On the other hand we all know, well those with a bit of sense anyway, that neither is he the worst player in the PL either, as some have claimed.

Most of us with any sense know he is a really bad CM/DM and footballer - christ even Mourinho isn't picking him lately. Most with any sense can see he's been a big part of the problem at Spurs - and we have had major problem in midfield for a long time now - and desperately needs upgrading, and of all the players we have that need upgrading, he'd be by far the easiest.

 

[stevee]

What I have done is back up my opinion with data, video and anecdotal evidence, lots and lots of it.



Remind me Stevee, what exactly is it that he does "well" that I am unwilling or unable to see?

I and others have described how he odes things badly, how he hides from the ball and points towards others, how inept he is technically, how he doesn't press very well, read the game well, tackle much, intercept much, and backed it up with data, descriptive in game examples, I've even made freeze frames and videos and posted them to highlight it.

That isn't vague bias, it's meticulous and extensive.




Read it again, and you will see it isn't a contradiction. I am saying there are literally loads of players, of all ages and prices, we could buy who would be better CM's than Sissoko, but there are various reasons we we - and all clubs - don't always efficiently manage and upgrade their teams.





Most of us with any sense know he is a really bad CM/DM and footballer - christ even Mourinho isn't picking him lately. Most with any sense can see he's been a big part of the problem at Spurs - and we have had major problem in midfield for a long time now - and desperately needs upgrading, and of all the players we have that need upgrading, he'd be by far the easiest.

You are unable to concede the point that he does do things well.

In the 2018/19 (IIRC) season he was outstanding and got plaudits from the fans, in the media, and by pundits.

You started a match analysis thread after every game with marks out of 10.
You stopped it because, such is your small mindedness, bitterness and bias, Sissoko was regularly getting high marks and some MOTM awards from members on here.

You then had the gall to say that the only reason he was getting high marks, from TFC members, was to piss you off.

When Sissoko makes a good tackle, or tracks a runner and makes a block, you ignore it because it doesn't suit your rabid anti-Sissoko agenda.

I'll leave it there, expect to repeat what I have said before, he can be improved upon he's not the best, nor is he the worst.

 

[bus-conductor]

You are unable to concede the point that he does do things well.

In the 2018/19 (IIRC) season he was outstanding and got plaudits from the fans, in the media, and by pundits.

You started a match analysis thread after every game with marks out of 10.
You stopped it because, such is your small mindedness, bitterness and bias, Sissoko was regularly getting high marks and some MOTM awards from members on here.

You then had the gall to say that the only reason he was getting high marks, from TFC members, was to piss you off.

I stopped because we were playing so shit every week I ran out ways to say the same thing. Sissoko wasn't regularly getting high marks, or MOTM, we were so shit our manager got sacked and we didn't win an away game for nearly a year. That ring any bells?

When Sissoko makes a good tackle, or tracks a runner and makes a block, you ignore it because it doesn't suit your rabid anti-Sissoko agenda.

I'll leave it there, expect to repeat what I have said before, he can be improved upon he's not the best, nor is he the worst.

If he did any of those really basic things better or more often, tackled more than once a game, didn't have hiding behind opponents so as not to receive a pass down to a fine art, I might forgive his technical pub level ineptitude and join your circle jerk.

You may have a high shit tolerance, but shit and lazy just doesn't do it for me.

 

[daveyboy88]

I stopped because we were playing so shit every week I ran out ways to say the same thing. Sissoko wasn't regularly getting high marks, or MOTM, we were so shit our manager got sacked and we didn't win an away game for nearly a year. That ring any bells?




If he did any of those really basic things better or more often, tackled more than once a game, didn't have hiding behind opponents so as not to receive a pass down to a fine art, I might forgive his technical pub level ineptitude and join your circle jerk.

You may have a high shit tolerance, but shit and lazy just doesn't do it for me.

yea thats awful, shit from aurier and davies there too. good video on how not to defend that.

you wouldnt think they was getting paid to play there would you. almost like they was playing over the park and they had enough half hour ago and want to go home now.

 

[stevee]

I stopped because we were playing so shit every week I ran out ways to say the same thing. Sissoko wasn't regularly getting high marks, or MOTM, we were so shit our manager got sacked and we didn't win an away game for nearly a year. That ring any bells?




If he did any of those really basic things better or more often, tackled more than once a game, didn't have hiding behind opponents so as not to receive a pass down to a fine art, I might forgive his technical pub level ineptitude and join your circle jerk.

You may have a high shit tolerance, but shit and lazy just doesn't do it for me.

And once again you proven your bias.
Where's the hate for all the rest of the defense in that clip.

You continually post clips, or "stats" that support your view, whilst ignoring those that don't.
iz futbal posted that Sissoko has a 78 % tackle success rate.
You say it's irrelevant.

I post his appearance stats, showing that he's, at the moment, a good squad player.
You say it doesn't count.

He has 65 caps for one of the best international teams in the world.
You say, yeah, well, he didn't get in their world Cup squad. As if that matters, you don't get 65 caps for France if you're shit.

Sissoko has more tackles, more headed clearances and more interceptions than Henderson.
Not bad for a player that can't, and doesn't tackle, can't head the ball and can't read the game.
But I'm guessing that this doesn't count either.

You've become a parody of yourself.

 

[iz futbal]

yea thats awful, shit from aurier and davies there too. good video on how not to defend that.

you wouldnt think they was getting paid to play there would you. almost like they was playing over the park and they had enough half hour ago and want to go home now.

Thats a collective bad defending from everyone really. Dier lets his man go too. Sanchez lets the guy cross in easily. Davies can see everything unfolding and does nothing. Never are the back 4 outnumbered and yet they let things happen. Blaming it all on a CM is silly.

 

[bus-conductor]

And once again you proven your bias.
Where's the hate for all the rest of the defense in that clip.

Once again you show yours. I back up my opinion with evidence of Sissoko’s laziness and all you can do is point (how appropriate) at others instead of acknowledging it.

Yes, the others made mistakes, but none of them deliberately consciously just decided they couldn’t be arsed - twice - to make the effort to just track a man, instead choosing to just watch him as he first runs into our box and then sets up a goal that kills the game for us. And that was not the first time he’s done that and I’ve highlighted it. Being shit is bad, being a coward that constantly hides when team mates need a pass is atrocious, being lazy without the ball too is the ducking trifecta of wank.

And I have for a long time said the same about Davies, he needs upgrading.
.

You continually post clips, or "stats" that support your view,

Yes I do, thanks for acknowledging that.

whilst ignoring those that don't.
iz futbal posted that Sissoko has a 78 % tackle success rate.
You say it's irrelevant.

No, I ignore those that are meaningless or without context.
And again, percentages are meaningless on their own. 78% of fuck all is fuck all, and Sissoko tackles fuck all relatively speaking. 1.4 a game. 1.3 last season.

But it’s not just about tackles, it’s about pressing and pressuring the man on the ball, reading the and again, Sissoko’s piss poor. All of which would matter less if he was good on or with the ball, but he isn’t.

Terrible on it, terrible off it.

I post his appearance stats, showing that he's, at the moment, a good squad player.
You say it doesn't count.

You need to understand that an appearance can be 1 minute or 20 minutes or 95 minutes,

How does the unit “appearance” tell us how much time someone spent on the pitch?

He has 65 caps for one of the best international teams in the world.

Deschamps is the French equivalent of Sean Dyche. He's managed to get one of the best squads that world football has seen to play like Burnley. His negativity lost them a home Euros to a crap Portugal team without Ronaldo and got outplayed by Croatia for an hour in the WC final.

Deschamps selections have been criticised by most in France, French media, fans and other players, and I’ve posted examples questioning Sissoko’s selections.

You say, yeah, well, he didn't get in their world Cup squad. As if that matters,

Well it does matter. Unless you’re biased toward Sissoko. You can’t keep using his international appearances to support your argument and say the fact that the only time they did win something he was dropped doesn’t matter?

you don't get 65 caps for France if you're shit.

Sissoko has.

Sissoko has more tackles, more headed clearances and more interceptions than Henderson.

Henderson has almost identical tackles per game 1.3, makes more interceptions, presses better, and also sees three times the amount of the ball Sissoko does. And has been playing at CB this season.

You've become a parody of yourself.

No, I’m parodying you, your schoolboy use of stats, your poor judgement, your bias and your contradiction of yourself.

 

[stevee]

Now I know your on a wind up.
All the stats that don't suit your agenda are irrelevant. Got it.

Sissoko's minutes as a Spurs player in the PL;

2016/17, mins 901, 26%, finished 2nd
2017/18, mins 1395 40%, finished 3rd
2018/19, 2336 mins, 65% finished 4th
2019/20 2456 mins, 71% finished 6th
2020/21 1146 mins, 84%, currently 5th.

No doubt you will try to twist this and say that this is the reason Poch was sacked and that our performances have declined in line with the more minutes he's played.

Therefore, I've done the same for our CL run in getting to the final.

13 games played = 1170 minutes

Sissoko
1031 minutes played = 62%
If you take out the game and a half he was unavailable for due to injury and leave in the two games he played no part of on the pitch;
1031 minutes played 70%

He was an integral part of the only Spurs squad that has ever reached a CL final.

But of course you'll say it was his fault we lost that final, once again ignoring the other players who were also shit in that game.

 

[stevee]

bus-conductor

Oh look, here's some clips if Sissoko doing things well.



This shows that he's brilliant right, and on a par with Messi, right ?

What do you mean "NO ?"
It's evidence of his greatness, I've posted the clips, so it must be right. It shows how good he is. You can't argue with that.
Tell you what, I'll continually post more clips from other games of the things he's done well, that'll show you how great he is.
After all, isn't that how he works ? You find the best (or in your case worst) clips of him and that proves how great (or shite) he is.

 

[Matt1882]

I stopped because we were playing so shit every week I ran out ways to say the same thing. Sissoko wasn't regularly getting high marks, or MOTM, we were so shit our manager got sacked and we didn't win an away game for nearly a year. That ring any bells?




If he did any of those really basic things better or more often, tackled more than once a game, didn't have hiding behind opponents so as not to receive a pass down to a fine art, I might forgive his technical pub level ineptitude and join your circle jerk.

You may have a high shit tolerance, but shit and lazy just doesn't do it for me.

Let's be totally honest - everyone was fucking woeful in that game.
You're picking one player our to make your point whereas the same could apply to most of them.

 

[Matt1882]

bus-conductor

Oh look, here's some clips if Sissoko doing things well.



This shows that he's brilliant right, and on a par with Messi, right ?

What do you mean "NO ?"
It's evidence of his greatness, I've posted the clips, so it must be right. It shows how good he is. You can't argue with that.
Tell you what, I'll continually post more clips from other games of the things he's done well, that'll show you how great he is.
After all, isn't that how he works ? You find the best (or in your case worst) clips of him and that proves how great (or shite) he is.

I bet you'd struggle to find a 3.33s video real that makes Winks look this good.

I think a lot of people treat Sissoko like a lot of people treat Mourinho - they see what they want to see and ignore the rest.

I say this as a BMW - BMW drivers don't indicate less than everyone else. Everywhere I go I see it in every make and model. BUT people will only ever see the 1 out of 5 BMW's that day that didn't indicate.

That one bad pass of Sissoko stands out like a BMW not indicating to the haters. ~They completely ignore the stuff he does well. It just didn't happen as far as they're concerned.