Now is not the time

When exactly should we start expecting him to deliver silverware? In 5 years time, 10’years?
It happens when it happens and I'm going to fucking love it when it does...meanwhile I'm going to enjoy being a Spurs fan regardless...besides that, being a Spurs fan and having expectations has always been a hazardous journey, usually ending in disappointment...
 
No is I don’t but I also do not try convince myself that CL participation will elevate us to a level that it simply cannot. One of the primary issues is this obsession with CL football - when the main objective becomes securing additional revenues is it any wonder that doesn’t win anything?

I agree that obsessing over CL participation isn't the 'be all and end all' but it's enjoyable to be there, even you must have enjoyed the run this season, I mean the final was poor but the City & Ajax games were classics, surely even taking the money element out it can only be good for the club to pit itself against the best teams in Europe, if we're to improve playing against strong opposition can only help, surely you have to accept that premise?

They gained promotion 20 years ago - do you think our supporter bases were concerned by our relegation in the ‘70s when we won silverware in the ‘80s? Again you are marooned in another decade - in another time and team. Had we won the league in the last couple of years I wouldn’t have felt the need to reference the ‘90s because what would the point of that be? Are you trying to tell me winning the league would mean more to a supporter who had experienced the 90s than one who grew up in the 00s? I don’t believe that for one second. And again you are being highly selective with the time frames - the point of reference is alway a troubled time. You do this because it’s avoids disappointment - because it is the easy way out. Using failed eras as the reference point will always result in achievement - but achievements that no one outside of the supporter base respects.

You're being selective here not me, if you think that in 81' there were no fans who witnessed our relegation in '77 then I'm struggling to see your point. You're trying to create an idea that no period of success relates to a period of failure, you're doing it to fit the narrative of your argument, that people only think of success and not the journey up to that point. My point is that to succeed you have to fail otherwise you don't get to understand the value of it.

I am trying to say that the longer you support a team the more you know it and as time goes by you know how to contextualise your experience of it. It's not true of everyone and I'm pretty sure it's not true about you but that's just seems like common sense to me. The longer you live, the more you know yourself, your faults, your strengths, how you react to success, how you deal with things when they get you down. Very few people say that time has no effect upon them.

Let's take your argument that my outlook avoids disappointment, is that a bad a thing? Should I be hurt and angry if we don't perform? Should I call out every player, the manager and board on social media? Maybe go home and make some placards to stand outside the ground with? Is that a rational or better way to deal with things? We clearly see things very differently.

A false sense of entitlement? Are you serious? Expectations should be set on the players that we have and we have had one of the most talented teams in the league for the last 5 seasons. What is false is your position because it disregards this and instead centres of historic failures. We could have the 70s Brazil team playing for us and yet the supporter base would claim that we shouldn’t have the expectation of trophies whilst endlessly elevating league placings and semi final finishes. There is a compete disconnect between the talent we have and the expectations that supporters have for this team. In truth you don’t believe we deserve our place with the best.

And this is the killer, as you're not a fan of harking back to long lost eras, let's take last season. That season only one team won any domestic titles, no one else. I can't decry our team for not being Man City and essentially that's what you're expecting the fan base to do.

We have a talented squad, some immense players, a great manager, fantastic set up, I am delighted with what we have and I think we have potential to improve. We don't however have the firepower to spend a billion pounds on our squad and I'm not going to get angry with our club our supporters for that fact of life. Because to do so is basically the false entitlement that I'm alluding to.

It's been fun discussing this Hood but I think the only thing we're going to agree upon is we're not going to agree.
 
I try, I should also say that this was written before our day off signings and I was getting annoyed with the posters despair at not having made a transfer in June. Instead of replying and getting angrier I thought I'd put it all down.
Steve P???
Not that Steve P are you?
If so, you may start to get saucy PMs of another poster on here...
 
Why is the Hoods opinion so I'm palatable for some of you guys ?

I don't share his opinion at all but I can see how such opinions can be formed , as far as I can tell he's not abusive or particularly condescending.
Nothing wrong with it....but when it's beaten over your head for the nth time it can get a tad wearying...
 

Airfixx

[Cherub] #TeamHebzebenese
It's a good, balanced read but ibetwixt the margins so are 99.5% of fans.

The writer forgets those fans who only arrived at the top 4 party. Why should they look back? Indeed how can they?

People are 100% entitled to their opinions but I think too much is inferred by the posts people make.

Meh....

Was I around in the 60's? No...

Am I proud of our history? Fuck yes.

"It’s a never ending ride but it’s only really worth experiencing it if you enjoy it."

Totally missed the point of the article...... Why am I not suprised.
 
But let’s put that aside because there is other issues at play. The mentality of the supporter base is also to blame. This endless referencing of failed eras is hugely damaging - I don’t care if you remember the 90s - what relevance does those teams have to this one? We shouldn’t be setting expectations around failed teams and failed eras - it should be based on what we have now relative to our peers.

That’s why this laissez faire approach from so may of our supporters is so infuriating. The notion that we don’t have to believe that this is the time now is quite frankly absurd. The club has built a team that typically comes around once in a generation - it’s gone nearly 30 years since its last FA Cup win, nearly 40 since a UEFA cup win. It has to capitalise on that and it hasn’t - that can’t be disputed.

And there I completely differ.

You miss the point here we will have periods of failure, no club has had 30 years of constant shining success, not one. Our club has been great and it's been a failure over a log period of time, every team is the same. Try talking someone who has witnessed us being relegated, funnily enough they will also recount the promotion season as being quite special.

Consider this, you're a City fan, the day they returned to the Prem from 1st division, is still probably their most prized memory. One of my most prized was the Crouch goal against City when we got our first run at the Premier League, are these moments meant to mean nothing just because they don't equate to a trophy of note?

The difference is that even now you can't acknowledge success, you can't see that the direction of travel is right. You hyper focus on silverware, you believe we should all be angry at not having silverware, I find it a bit joyless.

The real problem with your outlook is I can't see how you can be happy and support Spurs with that way of thinking, I'd be driven mad if I agreed with your line of thought because, really, nothing the club could do would ever really be enough and even if you were angry and upset about the lack of silverware, the truth is that you have no real effect on what decisions the club makes.

The time isn't now, it doesn't have to be because we're all going to be watching Spurs for a very long time, make of it what you will, I hope it's not as unhappy for you as you make it sound.
 

Airfixx

[Cherub] #TeamHebzebenese
I agree that obsessing over CL participation isn't the 'be all and end all' but it's enjoyable to be there, even you must have enjoyed the run this season, I mean the final was poor but the City & Ajax games were classics, surely even taking the money element out it can only be good for the club to pit itself against the best teams in Europe, if we're to improve playing against strong opposition can only help, surely you have to accept that premise?



You're being selective here not me, if you think that in 81' there were no fans who witnessed our relegation in '77 then I'm struggling to see your point. You're trying to create an idea that no period of success relates to a period of failure, you're doing it to fit the narrative of your argument, that people only think of success and not the journey up to that point. My point is that to succeed you have to fail otherwise you don't get to understand the value of it.

I am trying to say that the longer you support a team the more you know it and as time goes by you know how to contextualise your experience of it. It's not true of everyone and I'm pretty sure it's not true about you but that's just seems like common sense to me. The longer you live, the more you know yourself, your faults, your strengths, how you react to success, how you deal with things when they get you down. Very few people say that time has no effect upon them.

Let's take your argument that my outlook avoids disappointment, is that a bad a thing? Should I be hurt and angry if we don't perform? Should I call out every player, the manager and board on social media? Maybe go home and make some placards to stand outside the ground with? Is that a rational or better way to deal with things? We clearly see things very differently.



And this is the killer, as you're not a fan of harking back to long lost eras, let's take last season. That season only one team won any domestic titles, no one else. I can't decry our team for not being Man City and essentially that's what you're expecting the fan base to do.

We have a talented squad, some immense players, a great manager, fantastic set up, I am delighted with what we have and I think we have potential to improve. We don't however have the firepower to spend a billion pounds on our squad and I'm not going to get angry with our club our supporters for that fact of life. Because to do so is basically the false entitlement that I'm alluding to.

It's been fun discussing this Hood but I think the only thing we're going to agree upon is we're not going to agree.

Fucking Bravo!
 

Airfixx

[Cherub] #TeamHebzebenese
I know we've been through this a hundred times......

But then what mate? when you're-evaluate' your support after a poor season or two?
Either you:
  • continue to support the club, through thick and thin, come what may - what some people call 'happy clappers', or
  • moan about your club all the fucking time because they are 'disappointing' you and, after all, the world revolves around your feelings, or
  • decide to support another club that wins pretty silver cups, because that's what makes you happy.
Oh, and let's not deliberately confuse 'steadfast support' with 'lack of ambition'.

You'll have guessed where I am on the spectrum and this is uncomfortable, because the implication is that 'we' think we are 'better supporters' than 'them', which naturally causes resentment amongst our broad church - but I can't se any other logical inference.

Bigger fans, maybe not, but better supporters; fuck yes.... I have no shame about declaring this and do so with great pride too.

I get ribbed by pricks like Hood all the time; accused of thinking I am the "best" fan.... Bollocks; there's plenty out there who's SUPPORT (There's that word again!) exceeds mine (be that through years of service or the amount of constructive effort/commitment I see them put into their support of the club), but when compared to someone that does nothing more that cunt the club off on-line on a daily basis and seemingly get's a kick out of pissing in the collective's cornflakes, I have no qualms about claiming the higher ground without fear that mine is a view driven by ego.
 
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It's a good, balanced read but ibetwixt the margins so are 99.5% of fans.

The writer forgets those fans who only arrived at the top 4 party. Why should they look back? Indeed how can they?

People are 100% entitled to their opinions but I think too much is inferred by the posts people make.

Well, the writer was me!

And I haven't forgotten those who are new to the experience, if you have only been watching Spurs for 5 or 6 years, I envy you, you have decades ahead of you watching Spurs and it will be fantastic, you will see us do great things and see us fail too, that's the nature of supporting any club and perhaps why any given moment in a club's history can be taken out of context.

I am honestly not trying to patronise you or anyone saying how they should think about Spurs but in a few years time, have a read again and see if it chimes with you, you might be surprised.
 
I think it’s safe to say there are (at least) two viewpoints: those who see success as silverware, and those who see success as progress. For me, success is progress, consistently competing at the top level, being able to go into games against the most expensive sides assembled in footballing history with a genuine expectation that we might just be able to win, and then win again. Yes, it would be awesome to win some trophies, but only one team can win every one each year. Would we genuinely say that, over the course of the season, we were more consistent than City (of course not); better than Liverpool? No.

We no longer have the horrific capitulations that cost the jobs of so many managers before Poch - that IS progress.

Use Hood’s analogy of Lendl and Henman from earlier - all the experts, those who genuinely know, who have played the game, watched the game, know the ins-and-outs of the game, they see Poch as a Lendl, not a Henman - trophies will come, given time and resources. That’s where we are and I’m 100% sure that’s where we’re going.

COYS
 
It’s an extremely unhealthy position for a club to find itself in when it has this level of talent, has gone this period of time without a trophy and the majority of the supporter base is completely passive to this.

Seriously, what do you want us to be doing, I mean, do you want our fans to be like this prick?

 
I know I’m new here, but I’d love a trophy - who wouldn’t but - and this is the kicker - for the long term health of the club that we all love, the truth (at this present time) is that the CL qualification is much more valuable to our longevity than any single piece of silverware. And, I guess, when it comes down to ‘3 points at Brighton on Saturday’ vs ‘best team out in Rd 3 League Cup on Wednesday’, those three points could be worth nearly a hundred million pounds, as they were last season with our run to the final.

Is the alternative the Mourinho model - win some trophies, but leave the club disintegrating? We can’t compare with City because of the money, nor any of the other ‘top’ teams. Compare to Atletico - similar position in terms of ‘big boys’ - the increase in PL vs La Liga is negated as different leagues and cups and, then, we’re about right: challenging, competing, getting close. We’re Atletico, not Real, we’re Dortmund, not Bayern (dodgy example, but you get the sentiment)...it’s just where we are in the pecking order at the moment. Frustrating, but true.

I think you're describing where most of us are at, no one here is saying 'I don't want us to win trophies' or that we don't deserve to, it's just the context of this league, the teams around us and our rate of development. I find it hard to get angry or disappointed by the situation at the moment.
 
I take you also complain about the endless accolades levelled at Pochettino as well then? Im a drop in the ocean compared to that - you must take huge issue with that level of repetition.
Yeah, I fucking hate reading about how people like our manager...makes me wish we had Neil Warnock instead...
 
Because that’s what I said was it.

The point is unattractive football is deemed unacceptable but a decade without silverware ( despite having two top sides) is.

That tells me the mentality and mindset of the supporter base is clearly not right.
People pay to see football to be entertained that's the whole fucking point, not every team can win trophies but if they play decent football fans will happily pay money to see it....If every fan was only in to see trophies being won then what would be the point of existence for 99.999999999% of all football teams?
 

Mrs Perryman

Supporter
I'm a Cockney Malteser 👑
He asked me what I’m expecting next season and I said silverware because with the team we have we should be expecting that.

As I said before there is no hiding place left for Pochettino - the stadium excuses is gone, the spend excuse is no longer there. If he fails again next season I suspect manager more are going to start to wake up to this.
Excuse me for butting in, and I may be way off the mark, but it comes across that you want Poch to fail miserably, so you can say "I told you so".
 
It’s the role of the manager to get them to perform, to implement the right formation and tactics, to give them the required mindset.

In that case Poch deserves massive credit and praise for getting us to the CL final in the first place.

Oh and in case you try your usual tactic of deflection, he also deserves massive praise and credit for getting us to a top 4 place with a squad that suffered many injuries to many players at the same time, some of them long term, and no new players for 2 transfer windows.

You can't have it both ways.
 

Airfixx

[Cherub] #TeamHebzebenese
This is is level I have to contend with - absolutely no point in the thread have I said Poch out or talked about the Champions League Final.

It’s does make me laugh that when people claim the manager is not to blame for a poor performance it’s the players. It’s the role of the manager to get them to perform, to implement the right formation and tactics, to give them the required mindset.

We had been in free fall results once since February resulting in our worst run since 2008. But that had no bearing on the CL final of course and the manager isn't responsible for getting results he?

It's still entirely relevant to YOUR gripe tho regardless of your protestation of convenience.

If a trophy is central to your point, players performing poorly in finals simply must bring more than just Poch under the spotlight.... Especially if you believe like some do that they shrink as soon as silverware is in sight. See: Leicester/Wham 16/17, Wolves 18/19, domestic finals vs Utd & Chavs, CL vs Liverpool.

The players MUST at least face a similar degree of scrutiny/accountability as that which you insist on subjecting Poch to.
 
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