SpursUltra said:
Oh I dont. I just dont like the misconception that Sugar single handedly saved us by pumping billions of his own money into the club.
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Oh I dont. I just dont like the misconception that Sugar single handedly saved us by pumping billions of his own money into the club.
sammyspurs said:
wasnt that he put x amount in, he put the brakes on us spending silly money on everything. had to be done at the time, if he erred too much on the side of caution , its understandable. it did fuck us up on the pitch and he should have invested a bit more, but he did what was necessary to secure the future of the club.
we had nothing left to mortgage, no future sky money to lend against either.
sammy, scholer fucked the club up and he fucked the fans over as he saw us as loyal mugs who could be bled dry no matter what he did. football aint a supermarket where you might change using one according to many variables, you support spurs, thats it, your fucked for life, and that cunt exploited this.
Seeing Sugar for what he is doesnt mean Im defending Scholer.
Im aware of what Sugar did, just also highlighting what he didnt do, as I think "saving Spurs" is a bit rich considering how he also left us, footballing wise.
Im aware of what Sugar did, just also highlighting what he didnt do, as I think "saving Spurs" is a bit rich considering how he also left us, footballing wise.
The Sugar debate is a tough one. Unlike Sammy I do actually think he "saved Spurs". The alternative was very bleak. We could easily have been a forerunner of Leeds United, consigned to the lower leagues and living past memories of life in the top division. So, in that sense, I think it's entirely reasonable and fair to say that Sugar saved us from the disaster that had been created under Scholar.
However, like Sammy, I don't buy the idea that Sugar proved to be the best thing for the club and therefore can just now rest on the laurels of the saviour label. Sugar has referred to his time at Spurs as a nightmare since, to him, it was the only business venture he failed at. What he seems less willing to admit though is what caused that nightmare. The fact is that he knew fuck all about football. He was a casual fan who bought a local club because he thought he could make it into a successful business. It was that simple. He did not want to listen to the football people at the club, and didn't want to get in any external football advisors. To him, he knew best as the businessman and he recruited managers on that basis. He saw that a manager had had a bit of success at another club and thought that he would get exactly the same for Spurs. Francis, recruited because of the success he had just had at QPR. Gross, because foreign managers were en vogue and he had just won the Swiss league. Graham because he's won tons of trophies, so, by default, that must be enough. Sugar didn't get the fact that there were other variables in football that did not exist in regular business. You didn't bring in people just because they had done X number of things elsewhere. His attitudes to players weren't much different. Didn't matter if they were the right or wrong players, they had done something elsewhere so that must be good enough. Player becomes popular and shows talent? Fuck him, just get in another (as Teddy Sheringham's autobiography attests to).
Sugar needed football people around him and he needed to listen to them. His job was to spot the silly spending, which he did well. His job wasn't to think he knew best on every other element of the club. That, to be, was his downfall. A lot of people accuse Levy of the same, but, between the two, you'd have to say that Levy has been willing to listen to others more than Sugar did.
All that said, I think history will be kind to Sugar. He was a necessary and vital step to ensure our place in the top league, and the alternative was too bleak to consider. He just wasn't the man to take us further on.
However, like Sammy, I don't buy the idea that Sugar proved to be the best thing for the club and therefore can just now rest on the laurels of the saviour label. Sugar has referred to his time at Spurs as a nightmare since, to him, it was the only business venture he failed at. What he seems less willing to admit though is what caused that nightmare. The fact is that he knew fuck all about football. He was a casual fan who bought a local club because he thought he could make it into a successful business. It was that simple. He did not want to listen to the football people at the club, and didn't want to get in any external football advisors. To him, he knew best as the businessman and he recruited managers on that basis. He saw that a manager had had a bit of success at another club and thought that he would get exactly the same for Spurs. Francis, recruited because of the success he had just had at QPR. Gross, because foreign managers were en vogue and he had just won the Swiss league. Graham because he's won tons of trophies, so, by default, that must be enough. Sugar didn't get the fact that there were other variables in football that did not exist in regular business. You didn't bring in people just because they had done X number of things elsewhere. His attitudes to players weren't much different. Didn't matter if they were the right or wrong players, they had done something elsewhere so that must be good enough. Player becomes popular and shows talent? Fuck him, just get in another (as Teddy Sheringham's autobiography attests to).
Sugar needed football people around him and he needed to listen to them. His job was to spot the silly spending, which he did well. His job wasn't to think he knew best on every other element of the club. That, to be, was his downfall. A lot of people accuse Levy of the same, but, between the two, you'd have to say that Levy has been willing to listen to others more than Sugar did.
All that said, I think history will be kind to Sugar. He was a necessary and vital step to ensure our place in the top league, and the alternative was too bleak to consider. He just wasn't the man to take us further on.
best thing about levy, for me, i dont even know what his voice sounds like. yeah, they film him a bit at games, but he dont appear to need publicity to boost his ego, he gets on with the job. we have no suger daddy and a small stadium yet we still compete up to a point. 15 million in january probebly would have secured 3rd [even 2nd] but arry wouldnt commit and levy couldnt give a manager who wanted to leave that kind of money.
pity , but thats down to john fucking terry. the cunt.
pity , but thats down to john fucking terry. the cunt.
My line was 'Scholar ruined us. Sugar saved us, but should have stepped aside earlier'.
Sounds pretty water-tight, Sammy.
Sounds pretty water-tight, Sammy.
I think he only trusted himself back then. Self-made man with a 'fuck you' attitude, making him stubborn as fuck.NO1JIB said:
Schoolboy'sOwnStuff said:
Fair enough mate. Im not just debating specifically with you guys, just points Ive heard so many times down the years in general really..
NO1JIB said:
^^spot on
Flannerz said:
Can't have been that tight, we were back signing world cup stars by 94
Seeing as I was a schoolboy in the early 80s, and I've not found anything about the sale in an initial search of Lexis-Nexis, the questions I asked in the OP of this thread remain unanswered.
It still seems like Scholar was buying shares secretly from about 1980, before wresting control in 82/83. But considering that in 1972 owners had veto power over sales, it's unclear why, 10 years later, they were selling secretly. Did they need the money to finance the West Stand?
No answers either way are emerging…
http://twohundredpercent.net/?p=20728
Suggests West Stand debt.
From memory the book "Sick as a Parrot" by Chris Horrie details the whole torrid affair and should have the answers you seek.
Thanks, @
zin
. So it was money trouble. I wouldn't consider what Scholar did devious, though, as suggested in other posts. Collecting proxies is a totally normal way to take over 
I wonder why Wale resigned over the West Stand. The bumbling by the Richardsons makes sense: they weren't ready to turn Spurs into an aggressive moneymaker, and it showed. Arthur had been retired for ages, iirc, and Geoffrey knew no other job than shareholder since his 30s. (If I've got that right… maybe he stayed on to work and was a board member only on weekends)
zin
. So it was money trouble. I wouldn't consider what Scholar did devious, though, as suggested in other posts. Collecting proxies is a totally normal way to take over I wonder why Wale resigned over the West Stand. The bumbling by the Richardsons makes sense: they weren't ready to turn Spurs into an aggressive moneymaker, and it showed. Arthur had been retired for ages, iirc, and Geoffrey knew no other job than shareholder since his 30s. (If I've got that right… maybe he stayed on to work and was a board member only on weekends)
Thanks, @
I wonder why Wale resigned over the West Stand. The bumbling by the Richardsons makes sense: they weren't ready to turn Spurs into an aggressive moneymaker, and it showed. Arthur had been retired for ages, iirc, and Geoffrey knew no other job than shareholder since his 30s. (If I've got that right… maybe he stayed on to work and was a board member only on weekends)
The book goes on but it's a pain in the ass to scan, it does mention the poor attendances of the time (less than 20k) and the European ban as contributing factors as well to the poor finances of the club.
Sugar was and is a business man not a football man but he did get us out of the shit thanks to Scholar virtually finishing us as football club.
Scholar was ready to sell us to Robert Maxwell before Sugar stepped in, so as much as sugar annoys me, lets pay him some kudos as wthout him we may be in a very different position.
I remember the east stand debaclle as well, Sugar was up for rmeoving the shelf completely and then claimed to be listening to fans when it remained, although much smaller. I also remember travelling up for the first game of the season and the match was called off at md day as the new east stand had not yet received its safety certificate.
Sugar was also shit on by players like Klinsmann, as good a player as he was he was a fucking mercenary who could not wait to fuck off after one season, he loved the whole messiah business when he came back as well, if i was Sugar i would have been pissed off as well with the players behaviour.
I also seem to recal that every one of the Sugar appointments, bar one, was welcomed by the fans and we did try all the managerial stereo types over the years with Sugar
Ex playing hero, back at his home - Venables, Ardiles
Highly rated but never heard of foreign coach - Gross ( Remember Wegner was starting to gel Woolwich at the time)
Old school coach who has won things - Graham
done well in lower leagues, derserves a chance at a top club - Francis
In the shit get Mr experience back - Pleat
Scholar was ready to sell us to Robert Maxwell before Sugar stepped in, so as much as sugar annoys me, lets pay him some kudos as wthout him we may be in a very different position.
I remember the east stand debaclle as well, Sugar was up for rmeoving the shelf completely and then claimed to be listening to fans when it remained, although much smaller. I also remember travelling up for the first game of the season and the match was called off at md day as the new east stand had not yet received its safety certificate.
Sugar was also shit on by players like Klinsmann, as good a player as he was he was a fucking mercenary who could not wait to fuck off after one season, he loved the whole messiah business when he came back as well, if i was Sugar i would have been pissed off as well with the players behaviour.
I also seem to recal that every one of the Sugar appointments, bar one, was welcomed by the fans and we did try all the managerial stereo types over the years with Sugar
Ex playing hero, back at his home - Venables, Ardiles
Highly rated but never heard of foreign coach - Gross ( Remember Wegner was starting to gel Woolwich at the time)
Old school coach who has won things - Graham
done well in lower leagues, derserves a chance at a top club - Francis
In the shit get Mr experience back - Pleat