FuckingHell?
-
The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports
FuckingHell?
Under 21 Squad (which excludes youngsters training with first team) to play the presaseson freindlies, starting with Ramsgate on Saturday 17th July.
A couple of players might go out on loan and join that club's pre-season, and a couple might join first team pre-season ?
Goalkeepers (4) - Joshua Oluwayemi, Kacper Kurylowicz, Timothee Lo'Totula, Isak Solberg,
Defenders (9) - Marcel Lavenier (RB/LB), Dennis Cirkin (LB), Malachi Walcott (CB), Brooklyn Lyons-Foster (CB/FB), Dermi Lusala (RB/CB), Marques Muir (CB), Maksim Paskotši (CB), Kalum Cesay (RB/DM), Jeremy Kyezu (LB/LM),
Central Midfielders (7 ) - Jamie Bowden (CM.DM), Rafferty Pedder (CM), Michael Craig (DM/CB), Matthew Craig (CM/AM), Nile John (CM/AM), Yago de Santiago Alonso (CM/AM), Alfie Devine (CM)
Attacking Midfield (6) - Dilan Markanday (AM), Elliot Thorpe (CM/AM), J’Neil Lloyd Bennett (winger/striker), Jeremi Mukendi, (AM/Striker), Romaine Mundle (AM, LW, RW), Max Robson, (AM),
Strikers (2) - Troy Parrett, Kion Etete,
Big squad, I assume that it will be pretty well divided into two after the first match (where most players will play a maximum of 45 minutes) so that each half squad plays alternate games as games are mostly twice a week.
Martch Schedule
17 July - Ramsgate fc
20 July - Enfield Town
27 July - Hastings United
31 July - Crawley Town
7 August - Barnet FC
A couple of players might go out on loan and join that club's pre-season, and a couple might join first team pre-season ?
Goalkeepers (4) - Joshua Oluwayemi, Kacper Kurylowicz, Timothee Lo'Totula, Isak Solberg,
Defenders (9) - Marcel Lavenier (RB/LB), Dennis Cirkin (LB), Malachi Walcott (CB), Brooklyn Lyons-Foster (CB/FB), Dermi Lusala (RB/CB), Marques Muir (CB), Maksim Paskotši (CB), Kalum Cesay (RB/DM), Jeremy Kyezu (LB/LM),
Central Midfielders (7 ) - Jamie Bowden (CM.DM), Rafferty Pedder (CM), Michael Craig (DM/CB), Matthew Craig (CM/AM), Nile John (CM/AM), Yago de Santiago Alonso (CM/AM), Alfie Devine (CM)
Attacking Midfield (6) - Dilan Markanday (AM), Elliot Thorpe (CM/AM), J’Neil Lloyd Bennett (winger/striker), Jeremi Mukendi, (AM/Striker), Romaine Mundle (AM, LW, RW), Max Robson, (AM),
Strikers (2) - Troy Parrett, Kion Etete,
Big squad, I assume that it will be pretty well divided into two after the first match (where most players will play a maximum of 45 minutes) so that each half squad plays alternate games as games are mostly twice a week.
Martch Schedule
17 July - Ramsgate fc
20 July - Enfield Town
27 July - Hastings United
31 July - Crawley Town
7 August - Barnet FC
Last edited:
Hopefully Etete will get a few minutes with the 1st team pre-season.
Only 2 strikers, should beef that up a bit.
So seriously, you're blaming Pochettino for Madueke's departure? It seem to be habit for many fans to blame Pochettino for halting the development for ALL the academy players associated with the clulb while he was there...
He was also offered a contract at Man Utd. before he joined PSV, which he turned down.... He was 17 when he left, so naturally not close to the 1st team yet.
Bellingham & Sancho also left English clubs as they saw, in their case, Bor. Dort as a better place to develop.
I think it's simply down to the fact that English players realised clubs in Netherlands, Germany, France are simply better at developing (ball skilled) players
Yup, Mandueke released a video a few months after he moved to PSV in June 2018 (dob 10/3/12 so only just aged 16) , in which he said that whilst he had enjoyed his time at Spurs he had chosen to move to PSV as he and his advisors thought he had a far better chance of getting first team minutes there rather than if he stayed at Spurs. Also very confident in his own ability to make a difference - without being too cocky about it, and in fact came acrross as being very mature in his decision making and approach to wanting to make it in his chosen career, understanding a lot of hard work was required.
Turns out that he was right and made his first appearance at PSV in 2019/20 (about 12 months after signing for PSV) aged just 17 and during that first season (19/20) made a handful of appearances.
And in 20/21 made 7 starts and 17 sub appearances in Eredevisie (just under 1,000 minutes played) scoring 7 goals with 6 assists (roughly a goal or assist every 73 minutes - great stats even for a top mature player) despite being only 18 - also played in Europa League against teams such as PAOK and Granada with a goal and 2 assists.
And now aged 19 widely tipped to replace Jaden Sancho at Dortmund.
And I suspect that having lost Mandueke due to Spurs poor record under Poch to spot top prospects and give minutes, Mourhino was probably encouraged to look at Spurs youngsters and hence both Devine and Scarlett both became in turn Spurs youngest debutants (although to be fair to Mourhino he is widely credited by ManU fans for giving McTominay his ManU debut and playing a very young Marcus Rashford quite a lot and getting him to become a reliable exciting goalscoring forward).
So on the basis of facts, Poch left Spurs without making much of the Spurs academy (whether bringing players through in house or via the loan system) and hence Spurs youth followers views on Poch - not just me btw - as bringing only Winks through in over 5 years of his tenure at Spurs is not a very good return.
Although I strongly hold the opinion that Poch halted youth development with his no-loan policy, I think you are correct in that it is likely that Madueke would have left even if the door to being lent out had been open. I think the HG rule is bad, because, like the Sanchos and the Maduekes out there, I do not think being in an academy of or being loaned out from a top club at 18 to 22 years of age is ideal for the development. Young players need regular football as important players at clubs that have incentives to develop them to take the necessary steps. The biggest clubs should not be forced to retain the most promising players during the important first years of high level mens football.
(Btw, I love Poch and most of what he did for Spurs)
Its impossible to be sure, but Mandueke is possibly the only one I can recall in recent times (eg post Beckham leaving to join his beloved ManU) of a top prospect at Spurs declining a scholarship.
And equally Luis Binks one of the few who we really really wanted to stay (a fantastic abilit to spray long passes as a CB, Alderweireld like) who was tempted to Montreal/Bologne (common ownership) with the promise of playing agred about 19, ironically just as POch was leaving.
As I say impossible to be absiolutely 100% sure - but that video released by Mandueke was very straightforward, he was sure he would not get the chance to play in the first team early, hence his move to PSV - and as we have seen Devine and Scarlett getting those early first team appearances aged 16 or 17 after Poch left (ie a change in youth development post Poch). I leave for everyone to make theor own judgement.
BTW, Poch very good at developing youngsters but ONLY once they had broken through into first team (eg Kane who had scored 3 PL goals in 3 starts before Poch arrived etc). But that's a different skill to bring youngsters from the academy into becoming 'bit part players in PL (which is the stage that had been achieved withh Kane pre Poch).
So can we blame Guardiola for Sancho debunking to Dortmund. Not really. Foden progressed slowly into the first team. Only this season being a sort of first choice and he is now 21.
When Kane appeared it was a lot easier to get a chance because the first team were not very good, even though we were sixth with AVB and then Tim. When you are regular top 4 and CL it is not easy to put youngsters in on regular basis.
To me Onomah was never good enough. Edwards didn’t get much of a chance but blew it at Norwich. KWP is the standout mistake of the youth players. Poch definitely wrong with his train with the first team plan. It needed someone to tell him.
We won’t know how good Madueke is until he goes to Dortmund(nowhere near definite apparently).
Only seen him at under 21 euros , didn’t play much so cannot judge him on that.
We have the perfect opportunity with Scarlett and Devine to play them in the Europa conference.
I hope we do.
Lily white Rose make the point that Scarlett is very powerful for his age, makes really powerful headers which is not usual for 17 year old . So might make an early impression. Devine certainly looks powerful enough.
When Kane appeared it was a lot easier to get a chance because the first team were not very good, even though we were sixth with AVB and then Tim. When you are regular top 4 and CL it is not easy to put youngsters in on regular basis.
To me Onomah was never good enough. Edwards didn’t get much of a chance but blew it at Norwich. KWP is the standout mistake of the youth players. Poch definitely wrong with his train with the first team plan. It needed someone to tell him.
We won’t know how good Madueke is until he goes to Dortmund(nowhere near definite apparently).
Only seen him at under 21 euros , didn’t play much so cannot judge him on that.
We have the perfect opportunity with Scarlett and Devine to play them in the Europa conference.
I hope we do.
Lily white Rose make the point that Scarlett is very powerful for his age, makes really powerful headers which is not usual for 17 year old . So might make an early impression. Devine certainly looks powerful enough.
Was JS offered loans elsewhere? If not, then it really is down to Guardiola. It was obvious he was going to be outstanding.
Have to disagree. Sancho would not sign a professional contract at 17. His mind was made up. Guardiola had only been there a year. He would have had to do the same as Foden.
No doubt Sancho has done well in Germany but has not pulled up trees for England in any games. He played against us twice in CL and did nothing.
It’s a bit hit and miss with players from Germany. De Bruyne brilliant. Mikatarian player of the year in Germany ..complete failure at Utd and Woolwich.
Timo Werner...jury still out
Kai Havertz...improving.
Leno..arse keeper......average at best.
Southgate himself did mention that stats from the Bundesliga can be misleading as the bottom half teams are nowhere near ours.
Who are the top prospects Pochettino failed to spot? I can't think of any top-prospect Pochettino "failed" and who later on became a top-player.
Madueke had to wait for 1 1/2 years at PSV before he made his debut in the Eredivisie on 19.01.2020, just 2 months before he turned 18; so he did not walk straight into the 1st team at PSV either.
And, by the time Madueke had made his debut for PSV, Pochettino had gotten the sack from Spurs. So you blame Pochettino for not playing Madueke earlier in the 1st team than PSV did and yet praise PSV for their "work" on Madueke.
Besides, Madueke never blamed Pochettino personally for not playing him - he simply stated (below article) what is a known fact: that it's very hard for youngsters to get into the starting XI at any of the EPL top clubs because of the pressure to get results.
If a youngster is played too early his confidence can be seriously harmed or even shattered; even to the extent, it can be hard for them to recover.
Noni Madueke: PSV's English teen star who turned down Man Utd | Goal.com Malaysia
Eighteen-year-old English forward Noni Madueke is set for his first full campaign in senior football at PSV having left Tottenham behind and rejected advances from Manchester United back in 2018
www.goal.com
That player is Noni Madueke.
"[Sancho] has opened the eyes to other talents,” the 18-year-old forward, who joined PSV from Tottenham in 2018, told Voetbal International. “A year after him, I went from Spurs to PSV. The plan that I had in mind then is now working out the way I intended it.
"In England, it is very difficult as a young talent to get into the first team, especially at the bigger clubs. The squads are very large and there is little room for youngsters. They often stay in reserve teams for a long time or are loaned out.
"There is little flow or chance to break through. That is completely different in the Netherlands."
It's very obvious that both Guardiola and Man City really wanted to keep him. And Sancho also turned down an offer from Spurs, as he had his mind set on joining Bor. Dort. already.
Jadon Sancho - Wikipedia
At the age of 14, he moved to Manchester City in March 2015 for an initial fee of £66,000 under the EPPP, potentially rising to £500,000 with add ons.[18][19] Sancho continued to impress in the Manchester City academy and was one of a trio of players that the Manchester City chairman, Khaldoon Al Mubarak, said would be fast tracked into the senior set up in May 2017.[20][21] In July 2017, Sancho was omitted from Manchester City's pre-season tour squad due to a dispute over assurances of playing time in a new contract.[22][23][24] It was subsequently reported that Sancho was attempting to engineer a move away from the club and City were alarmed at Sancho's attitude after missing training following a pre-season tour.[25][26]
Pep Guardiola says he has no regrets over Jadon Sancho's decision to leave Manchester City for Borussia Dortmund-Sports News , Firstpost
Sancho opted to leave the Premier League club for Dortmund in 2017 over fears City's collection of world-class talent would deny him regular playing time.
www.firstpost.com
Asked if he was frustrated Sancho rejected a contract offer when he was 17, City boss Guardiola made it clear he is happy to see the youngster thrive away from the Etihad Stadium.
"I've said many times, it is not a regret. He decides. He's doing really well. Congratulations, he's an exceptional player," Guardiola said on Friday.
"He is a national team player with huge quality, doing really well in Dortmund. We wanted him to stay but he decided to leave, and when people decide to leave all we can do is let them leave.
"I wish him all the best, except when he plays against us. No regrets at all. If he's happy, I'm happy."
A few key things coming out :
- Loans have been a crucial part in helping develop most of the England main squad - although most came through a Category 1 Academy (=PL club for the most part), although many started in a Category 2 Academy (ie moved to bigger club aged 16/17/18) but started in a most players got their debuts in a lower league (=on loan at tyhe time)
- The average age on debut of 17 years 9 months, younger than I had thought.
- London unsurpringly is one of the hotbeds of England talent - which should favour Spurs.
- 4 of the squad were released by one club, before being picked up later. No real surprise there.
The analysis shines a light on why Spurs were so poor at developing youngsters during Poch's time in charge.
Whilst not liking Mourhino's overall time in charge of Spurs, there's no doubt that Spurs youth poilicy changed back, broadly, to the policy pre-Poch with a lot of loans ...... and the debuts of Scarlett and Devine at a young age seem to be more in line with what might be expected by the above analysis whatever @Pathway may believe.
- Loans have been a crucial part in helping develop most of the England main squad - although most came through a Category 1 Academy (=PL club for the most part), although many started in a Category 2 Academy (ie moved to bigger club aged 16/17/18) but started in a most players got their debuts in a lower league (=on loan at tyhe time)
- The average age on debut of 17 years 9 months, younger than I had thought.
- London unsurpringly is one of the hotbeds of England talent - which should favour Spurs.
- 4 of the squad were released by one club, before being picked up later. No real surprise there.
The analysis shines a light on why Spurs were so poor at developing youngsters during Poch's time in charge.
Whilst not liking Mourhino's overall time in charge of Spurs, there's no doubt that Spurs youth poilicy changed back, broadly, to the policy pre-Poch with a lot of loans ...... and the debuts of Scarlett and Devine at a young age seem to be more in line with what might be expected by the above analysis whatever @Pathway may believe.
As i read it at the time, Sancho had been outstanding (which is why ManCity poached him a couple of years before frrom Watford where he was already recognised as a great prospect in youth circles) - quite possibly even the best in his England year group - and natuarally wanted his chance at ManCity.
It seems that Guardiola turned Sancho down, quite possibly having decided that Foden was the better option and he couldn't bring both through - the latter is my suposition, as otherwise I'd have thought Guardiola would have agreed to give Sancho chances.
Sancho had a year left on his contract and declined to sign another - no point in going on loan and signing a contract if you thought your parent club would not give you a chance whatever your results on loan.
ManCity realised he was a talent so refused to allow him to move to another PL club - we tried to get him as part of Walker's transfer - but obviously with only 1 year left in his contract something needed to happen if ManCity wanted money and to control Sancho's destination to a non PL club. Dortmund came in with an offer to buy him (circa £15m if I recall rightly - bought by ManCity from Watford for a few million less) and offered Sancho immediate game time, so with both ManCity and Sancho on side the deal went through.