Steven Bergwijn

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Stateside Spur Stateside Spur I was not talking specifically to either of you. I was speaking to the issue of people constantly pitting Son against Kane and Lucas against Bergwijn.

to your point about minutes your just wrong its a logical fallacy to say more minutes come directly at another players expense in the context of me saying he needs more game time. These things are not exclusive.

Conte said himself our cup failures cost him time. If you want something to pin it on, this is as valid as framing it as player A vs player B.

Football is a squad game and part of our clubs problem has in large part been our inability to recognise this for what it is. The horrible Levynomics narrative of "No one wants to come here to compete against Harry Kane" is so facile its a joke the person its damaged the most is Harry Kane. Man United won the ECL with a front four of Cole, Yorke Sheringham Solskar. At one point in the not distant past we had Defoe Bent Berbatov Keane. This is how you win.

Edit: forgive me if I attributed your points tge wrong way round.
I think we may be arguing two separate points here. I am speaking about our specific run in to close the PL season out. We are only in one competition now, the PL, and giving Bergwijn more minutes absolutely does come at the expense of another player receiving less minutes. That player would most likely be Lucas.

At the macro level, I 100% agree with you. Next year, when we are in the CL (hopefully) or Europa League, we can spread minutes out to the whole squad. This is why I really hope Bergwijn sticks around. Should we finish top 4, we will have plenty of game time to give him. Deki, Kane and Son would be starting every CL match if fit and we will need Bergwijn to start in the PL at times. Whether he takes his chances and pushes for a starting XI spot is totally up to him.
 
The issue with Stevie for me is the fact that we're unlikely to find a better player who is happy to sit on the bench.

He's definitely a confidence player but he can be very good. He's very quick, good with the ball at his feet and can finish. Having the ability to bring him on with 20 minutes left on the clock is a great thing. He's only 24. He's getting better and the players that he is competing with are approaching 30 (man I feel old).

I'd rather Lucas leaves before Stevie. I think we'd really regret letting him go. If we had CL football next season I feel like he'd get a hell of a lot more football, which would A) make him happier and B) improve him.
 
The issue with Stevie for me is the fact that we're unlikely to find a better player who is happy to sit on the bench.

He's definitely a confidence player but he can be very good. He's very quick, good with the ball at his feet and can finish. Having the ability to bring him on with 20 minutes left on the clock is a great thing. He's only 24. He's getting better and the players that he is competing with are approaching 30 (man I feel old).

I'd rather Lucas leaves before Stevie. I think we'd really regret letting him go. If we had CL football next season I feel like he'd get a hell of a lot more football, which would A) make him happier and B) improve him.
I think you are right. No way that Bergwijn should go back to Holland for 22 million euro while we hang on to a 30 year old Lucas. I'd only sell if we needed the money for an elite forward.
 
I think you are right. No way that Bergwijn should go back to Holland for 22 million euro while we hang on to a 30 year old Lucas. I'd only sell if we needed the money for an elite forward.
And no elite forward would come to a team with Harry Kane. Berg would be a support striker for Kane/new elite striker
 
And no elite forward would come to a team with Harry Kane. Berg would be a support striker for Kane/new elite striker
We might not want to spend our money that way (or not have enough) but we can absolutely get a top forward (by which I mean a Jota level player). If we have Conte, CL and pay the fee and wages.
 
Conte said himself our cup failures cost him time. If you want something to pin it on, this is as valid as framing it as player A vs player B.

Whilst I don't doubt being out the cups cost Bergwijn hypothetical minutes, the reality since Conte's appointment was as follows in the cups;

8 games total
3 games injured
2 games not used
2 games on as sub
1 start

Conference League:
(A) Vitesse: Unused Sub
(A) Mura: Not in the squad, not injured.

FA Cup:
(H) Morcambe: Injured
(H) Brighton: 22 minutes
(A) Boro: 39 minutes

League Cup:
(H) West Ham: 61 minutes
(A) Chelsea: Injured
(H) Chelsea: Injured

League Cup we only didn't play the final .
FA Cup we could have played 3 more games but Bergwijn wouldn't he started the semi or final anyway.

Conference League - so this is the only competition really as we could have played another 10 games in total if we made the final including the forfeited game.. but Conte didn't even give him a chance in the 2 games he managed, preferring Moura & Son then Dele & Gil.

Bergwijn doesn't get minutes because Conte doesn't fancy him over others. Blaming it on cup exits can be reduced to the Conference League exit - which can be blamed on Covid or our defeat against Mura, where Sanchez had a shocker, Sessegnon sent off after 30 mins, with Ndombele, Gil & Dele failing to produce.
I don't think Conte wanted to be in the Conference League anyway and will use that as an excuse when Bergwijn comes knocking on his door for minutes. He's below Lucas in the pecking order, then also went out and brought in Kulu.

Conte said that Bergwijn could be backup for Kane, but since his arrival he has started Kane in every single game except Morcambe where he came on to save us in the last 20 mins, and has only been subbed off ONCE after an hour at home to Palace when we were 2-0 up for Bergwijn because we were playing Southampton 2 days later.

For something to pin his lack of minutes on - look no further than Conte not starting him & not bringing him on for more than a handful of minutes due to other players keeping him out the team.
 
We paid £26m for him in 2019 on a long contract until 2025. He must be on a great wage.
Conte likes him but he rightly likes Son more.
He still gets picked for Holland so it's not like he has to move to get noticed for the WC.
Hope he stays next season but if he leaves...
 
Whilst I don't doubt being out the cups cost Bergwijn hypothetical minutes, the reality since Conte's appointment was as follows in the cups;

8 games total
3 games injured
2 games not used
2 games on as sub
1 start

Conference League:
(A) Vitesse: Unused Sub
(A) Mura: Not in the squad, not injured.

FA Cup:
(H) Morcambe: Injured
(H) Brighton: 22 minutes
(A) Boro: 39 minutes

League Cup:
(H) West Ham: 61 minutes
(A) Chelsea: Injured
(H) Chelsea: Injured

League Cup we only didn't play the final .
FA Cup we could have played 3 more games but Bergwijn wouldn't he started the semi or final anyway.

Conference League - so this is the only competition really as we could have played another 10 games in total if we made the final including the forfeited game.. but Conte didn't even give him a chance in the 2 games he managed, preferring Moura & Son then Dele & Gil.

Bergwijn doesn't get minutes because Conte doesn't fancy him over others. Blaming it on cup exits can be reduced to the Conference League exit - which can be blamed on Covid or our defeat against Mura, where Sanchez had a shocker, Sessegnon sent off after 30 mins, with Ndombele, Gil & Dele failing to produce.
I don't think Conte wanted to be in the Conference League anyway and will use that as an excuse when Bergwijn comes knocking on his door for minutes. He's below Lucas in the pecking order, then also went out and brought in Kulu.

Conte said that Bergwijn could be backup for Kane, but since his arrival he has started Kane in every single game except Morcambe where he came on to save us in the last 20 mins, and has only been subbed off ONCE after an hour at home to Palace when we were 2-0 up for Bergwijn because we were playing Southampton 2 days later.

For something to pin his lack of minutes on - look no further than Conte not starting him & not bringing him on for more than a handful of minutes due to other players keeping him out the team.
Yeah...all of which is as valid as framing things as player A vs player B. That was what I implied people need to stop with the Binary either or.
 
The issue with Stevie for me is the fact that we're unlikely to find a better player who is happy to sit on the bench.

He's definitely a confidence player but he can be very good. He's very quick, good with the ball at his feet and can finish. Having the ability to bring him on with 20 minutes left on the clock is a great thing. He's only 24. He's getting better and the players that he is competing with are approaching 30 (man I feel old).

I'd rather Lucas leaves before Stevie. I think we'd really regret letting him go. If we had CL football next season I feel like he'd get a hell of a lot more football, which would A) make him happier and B) improve him.
Agree with you.

I can see a Son narrative in Bergwijn. Him, Kulu and maybe Scarlett to be our future strikeforce
 
His shot was very poor today but give the man some minutes. I’m not surprised he snatched at it considering he is coming on with minutes left desperate to score. I was also disappointed to see he came on for Son, take off a centreback.
 
I have a feeling we'll be very sad we sold him this summer, come next season.

Yes he scuffed a chance he should have finished. But it's really hard to build consistency with a few minutes every few games.

Lucas came on and did exactly what I suspected. Added some chaos to the game. That works less than half the time.

Steve gives our game a different dimension, and generally links up well with others. Lucas doesn't.
 
it's clear now Conte was saying how much he rated him and wanted him to stay in the January window just to be difficult. He probably thought it was close he was going to leave so kept saying it to merley go against the board again ...and had no actual intention to play him.
 
It's obviously personal. Maybe he's not showing enough effort, or grumbling about game time. Whatever it is, Conte is clearly making a point rather than doing what's best for getting the win.
 
theres no way in a million years he would be any worse at RWB than royal!!! no shot on target in 180 mins with 5 points dropped!!

i put my life on it that we would of had a shot on target at the very least in the last 180 had berg been playing instead of that useless shit haircut twat
 
theres no way in a million years he would be any worse at RWB than royal!!! no shot on target in 180 mins with 5 points dropped!!

i put my life on it that we would of had a shot on target at the very least in the last 180 had berg been playing instead of that useless shit haircut twat
Precisely.
 
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