Summer 2020 Transfer Thread

[bus-conductor]

Your avoiding the question BC. You're coming off like another prominent poster round these parts. Everything doesn't need to be a zippy response and neither does it answer my question about your statement of the nebulous 'brains' being our biggest problem and addressing our 'bumbling fuckwits' with 1 player. The Fekir-less Liverpool has nothing to do with it as I asked your opinion based on the players Rangnick and Nagelsmann have used...and neither has used Fekir. And there are more than enough questions about Fekir's technical ability ie his ability to beat a man beyond cutting in from the right and shooting, his ability to hold against pressure without looking for the foul, and his ability to pass beyond last-ditch throughballs from the D when all else has failed. And just dropping Moura won't alter our fortunes that you say afflicts all our attack.


What does that even mean? As stated, you are reminding me that it is possible for a player to be an intelligent donkey. Thanks for that BC. See, if you addressed my points directly you probably wouldn't have tied yourself in knots to come up with that bit of bollocks.

But to be clear I am not saying a lack of technical ability is 'our biggest problem'. I am just saying that it is what afflicts our attack and team in general. But I am asking you, again, to support your statement that a lack of 'brains' is what is doing us in the most. That's the point I'd like you to address and not any ancillary or tangential BS...as I know why you'd prefer to address that stuff.

We have lots of problems, and I have frequently voiced concerns about them individually and collectively, but in my original remark, I was particularly referring to our attack, which I qualified for you when I said

Our attack consists of a bunch of bumbling fuckwits.

Maybe you were too busy trying to score wisecrack points with your "off left field, spit balling" and fucking whatnot to notice.

You see the word bumbling there. That's acknowledging that I too have noticed a problem with technique.

We have a range of different attributes in our attack, some are quick, and despite bumbling a lot of the time some are capable of moments of outstanding technique. But with the exception of Kane, they nearly all lack consistent cognitive ability under pressure. This is evidenced by our mid table stats in terms of XG etc.

But I'll front up and say I think, again not ignoring a number of problems we have throughout the team, and club, collectively and individually, I think a lack of intelligence is probably our biggest single issue. Pochettino has filled the team with really unintelligent footballer's who not only do unintelligent basic things, but can't even grasp basic tactical concepts, have really poor cognitive skills and seem incapable of learning from "coaching" or errors they make. This is possibly why Pochettino was desperately still clinging to notion of players like Eriksen, Alderweireld and Vertonghen - despite them being knackered or not wanting to play for him any more.

I'm sure you clearly have a differing opinion, if you really want to debate them in a civil manner then I'm happy to do that, but if you are going to keep taking this condescending tone to me, you can fuck off.

 

[todd1882]

We have lots of problems, and I have frequently voiced concerns about them individually and collectively, but in my original remark, I was particularly referring to our attack, which I qualified for you when I said

Maybe you were too busy trying to score wisecrack points with your "off left field, spit balling" and fucking whatnot to notice.

No, BC

But he has a quick and composed brain. That’s our biggest problem. We have quick legs in attack, Son, Moura, Bergwijn- but no quick brains or composure, nowEriksen has gone.

That right there was your "original remark" to which I replied:

Is that our biggest problem? Could you flesh this out so those of us that haven't recognized it yet can better understand it?

to which you replied:

Our attack consists of a bunch of bumbling fuckwits.

You're welcome.

It's right there BC. Here's the link for you
https://thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/summer-2020-transfer-thread.34921/page-99

And since it was your "original response" that we have gone back and forth trying to get you to explain and support, but now you are trying to assiduously disavow or ignore, perhaps you can understand my consternation at trying to get to the bottom of...and yet, there is still no answer.

You see the word bumbling there. That's acknowledging that I too have noticed a problem with technique.

But according to you it is not our "biggest problem" so acknowledging it now doesn't do anything for answering my question. We can't have 2 "biggest problems" by definition. And I'm led to believe it is our "brains".

But I'll front up and say I think, again not ignoring a number of problems we have throughout the team, and club, collectively and individually, I think a lack of intelligence is probably our biggest single issue.

Ok, I asked if you could flesh this out some but you've not taken the opportunity. Poch is no longer here so rehashing that doesn't get me to better understand your point.

I'm sure you clearly have a differing opinion, if you really want to debate them in a civil manner then I'm happy to do that, but if you are going to keep taking this condescending tone to me, you can fuck off.

I'm pretty sure that's what I've been doing BC. I'm sure the irony is not lost on you about that last part. There is no 'debate' really going on. I do disagree with 'brains' being our 'biggest problem' mostly because I have no idea what you mean by that and you've not done a very good job of explaining it when I've posed the question. I'm open to hear what exactly you mean by that and how it's holding us back moreso than many of the other potentially glaring deficiencies. And beyond that how adding Fekir to that mix will go someway towards solving that issue. I mean, how does one go about quantifying this:

they nearly all lack consistent cognitive ability under pressure.

and beyond that how does one tease out whatever the 'cognitive' issue is from the 'technical' issue?

 

[bus-conductor]

No, BC

That right there was your "original remark" to which I replied:

to which you replied:

It's right there BC. Here's the link for you
https://thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/summer-2020-transfer-thread.34921/page-99

And since it was your "original response" that we have gone back and forth trying to get you to explain and support, but now you are trying to assiduously disavow or ignore, perhaps you can understand my consternation at trying to get to the bottom of...and yet, there is still no answer.


But according to you it is not our "biggest problem" so acknowledging it now doesn't do anything for answering my question. We can't have 2 "biggest problems" by definition. And I'm led to believe it is our "brains".


Ok, I asked if you could flesh this out some but you've not taken the opportunity. Poch is no longer here so rehashing that doesn't get me to better understand your point.


I'm pretty sure that's what I've been doing BC. I'm sure the irony is not lost on you about that last part. There is no 'debate' really going on. I do disagree with 'brains' being our 'biggest problem' mostly because I have no idea what you mean by that and you've not done a very good job of explaining it when I've posed the question. I'm open to hear what exactly you mean by that and how it's holding us back moreso than many of the other potentially glaring deficiencies. And beyond that how adding Fekir to that mix will go someway towards solving that issue. I mean, how does one go about quantifying this:

and beyond that how does one tease out whatever the 'cognitive' issue is from the 'technical' issue?

In terms of our attack, the cognitive issues are ones of intelligence and footballing application of that intelligence which manifests itself in decision making by players with and without the ball, how they read what's happening, where they move, what they choose to do with the ball when they receive it and the ongoing learning process of these situations and the lack of improvement in them.

The technical issues are ones of of a more physical nature when confronted with the ball at their feet and their ability to control and move it or move with it to successful effect.

But even this is often effected detrimentally by those poor decisions, which are made due to a lack of intelligence or cognitive skills. Hence, my original statement.

Alli, Moura, Son and Lamela are all capable of moments of technical proficiency but that technique gets flustered when they make poor decisions or by the lack the cognitive functionality to realise they've been in this situation many times and what to do to effect the best outcome.

I don't think we have many intelligent attacking footballers at all. I think their reading of situational problems is often poor, their movement (in and out of possession) lacks intelligence, which again puts pressure on them, and effects their technical ability, and their decision making is generally poor.

In other areas this is also the case. Players like Sissoko obviously, and Aurier are good examples - Aurier is technically very good, until he's under any kind of pressure, then he does really rash things. because he lacks the intelligence to make better decisions under pressure and the cognitive ability to learn from those situations.


Fekir is technically more composed more assured than most of our current group of AM's/FWDs, and is also more intelligent in his decision making.

Are you saying you'd prefer all of Alli, Lamela, Bergwijn, Moura to Fekir ? Especially with Fekir costing less last summer, aged 24 than all of those bar Alli cost us previously?

 

[todd1882]

In terms of our attack, the cognitive issues are ones of intelligence and footballing application of that intelligence which manifests itself in decision making by players with and without the ball, how they read what's happening, where they move, what they choose to do with the ball when they receive it and the ongoing learning process of these situations and the lack of improvement in them.

And how do you know it is a 'cognitive issue'? How do you know it is not a technical root? Take Dele for instance (and you need not address this because A-it will sidetrack and B- it is merely to illustrate a point of the technical being the root cause of him not doing something that you may attribute to the cognitive).

Spoiler: examples

Three or so years ago Poch said that Dele doesn't like to play from the rightside. It was obvious and most should have picked up on it. And if you think back to his whole time here he rarely goes onto the right except in the box. Why is that? The answer is technical, because he cannot bring the ball in-field from the right as he would be forced to dribble with his left (can't) or use his right thus presenting the ball for a challenge. Ever take notice of his long aimless dribbles up-field, diagonally left. Again, dribbling diagonally left with your right foot is the only way to 'protect' the ball from a defender on their goal-side. And why does he hold the ball and miss runs by other players? Because he cannot deliver from that position so he dribbles over to the channel and turns back. It's happened a million times and it's a technical deficiency not a cognitive deficiency.

Take Eriksen, the brains of it all. Ever notice how many times the ball popped up on his first touch thus losing a half-beat? IMO it was mostly because he had no intention of going forward on the half-turn so he wasn't focused on his otherwise good touch. His inability to hold the ball against pressure, technical, let him down and it really showed in a crucial game when he almost gave it all away last season. Was that his cognitive deficiency or was it technical? Did the brainy CE looked stressed when he gave that ball away? Yes, he was shitting himself because he got it in an unfamiliar position with someone on his back

Take Lamela who does well for only having 1 foot but can only move to certain positions because of this and has been caught out frequently because of this deficiency. Add to it his inability to strike a ball without falling and I find it hard to see past his technical deficiencies to worry about mental mistakes.

Just examples though. But he first touches on Moura, Dele, Sonny, Harry (sometimes) make me wonder why someone would look to the mental when the physical is so glaring. Hard to be thinking what will I do next when I'm consciously thinking about trapping a ball within 4 feet of myself.

Alli, Moura, Son and Lamela are all capable of moments of technical proficiency but that technique gets flustered when they make poor decisions or by the lack the cognitive functionality to realise they've been in this situation many times and what to do to effect the best outcome.

they may have been in these situations multiple time but if they don't have the technical ability to pull it off then why would you expect a different outcome. And IMO not a single one of those players has improved their technical ability - none really looks more comfortable on the ball than they did when they got here. Sonny has been great but I wouldn't hesitate to recruit on top of him because his touch is unreliable. In fact I believe I addressed this in the DOF thread.

I don't think we have many intelligent attacking footballers at all.

And I don't think we have many technically proficient footballers...and as we know you are taught the technical aspects before the tactical and there's a reason for that. doesn't really matter if you make the right runs if you can't control the ball when you get there or strike it like Sissoko does it? Right. Being technically proficient is the horse in front of that cart you want moved.

I think their reading of situational problems is often poor, their movement (in and out of possession) lacks intelligence, which again puts pressure on them, and effects their technical ability, and their decision making is generally poor.

A player that can control a ball looks no more stressed under pressure than without pressure. What puts pressure on their technical ability is their lack of technical ability IMO. Did Dembele ever look stressed receiving the ball? Modric? Many dozens of others in La Liga? Dani Parejo look stressed receiving the ball? Does Dele look stressed receiving the ball while posted in the left half-space? Nope because he knows what to do there and has faith in his ability to control it or go backwards. What about anywhere else under pressure? Not quite the same. But he makes decent decisions from the LHS.

Spoiler: examples

Sissoko lacks technical ability period and that is no comment on his intelligence. There is no way him getting the ball in any tight situation and it going wrong can or should be attributed to 'intelligence'. Taht's agenda. If we put your ass out there you'd fuck up everytime and i assume that since you are the arbiter here on who or what's intelligent you consider yourself mentally prepared to make good decisions in those situations, right? But it would be your technical ability, or lack thereof, that let you down. There would be a 'quickness of thought' issue as well since you'd need to train to pep that up but ultimately it would be technical issues letting you down.

And this is my point, how do you tease out the technical from the mental? I've rarely seen a 'dumb' player. What I often see is a player let down by their technical ability and the pressure pushing them into a mistake. Dier against Liverpool are classic examples. Dier is not a dumb player nor is he technically deficient (relative to our other many cloggers). What he is is a player that is not technically good enough to do it in the MF. Not having wing mirrors, a mental clock, the ability to hold against pressure, opening his body to the field when receiving, etc are technical problems. His perfect throughballs to Salah may look stupid but the problem wasn't mental.

Fekir is technically more composed more assured than most of our current group of AM's/FWDs, and is also more intelligent in his decision making.

I'd quibble with that last part but he also holds the ball and those decisions are based of him doing his own thing first. This man would make Dele look like DeBruyne with how many touches he would need. No one was sad he left Lyon for a reason.

Not sure you've convinced that our biggest attacking problem is 'brains'. And even if it were I'm not sure Fekir would be the one to address it. With the choice I would have preferred Bruno and I'm not fond of him either. But at least he can get about the pitch.

 

[SpiderSpurs]

Tottenham want to sign Inter Milan's Uruguay defender Diego Godin, 34, as Spurs boss Jose Mourinho looks to re-shape his defence. (Mirror)

 

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

Quiet day, so gone back to an earlier post !

Sabitzer might be one that you think is a good buy, but he's the only one who looks like a forward player - and for that he's sadly not good enough in that role - and here's why

In the last 5 years ish we have had 4 players who were regularly getting 20 goals or assists each season - Kane, Son, Eriksen and Dele. And that's one of the main reasons we looked good in PL, and even CL, our front 4 were pretty much as good or better than any other front 4.

However loooking at next season :

Kane - still a top striker but based on last few seasons injuries, we need to plan for him not being available for say 20% to 30% of the games - 12 to 18 games a season. That means missing a lot of goals in particular

Son - With Kane probably our 2 near world class players. Great as a wide forward and can replace Kane as the main forward, but when he does that the opposition know he's the main threat so he's less effective, we need others to be available to worry the opposition.

Eriksen - Gone !

Dele - Hasn't been the sane for a year or so, but flashes of the old Dele at the start of Mourhino's tenure. Hopefully recovers the form which has got him 50 PL goals at age 23.

Moura - Plays with his head down so no surprise he's only registered about 4 assists in his Spurs career, and 23 goals in 65 appearances means he's a 1 in 3 games goalscorer, which is 'ok.' but not as good as the players he needs to replace.

Lamela - Always injured so not reliable as to when he will be fit, and when he is fit his Spurs record of 33 goals in 146 appearances means he is not scoring at a rate we need.

Sessegnon - Arrived injured and has had a difficult first season. Not convinced he'll be a top forward, maybe a LB, but certainly not one to rely on next season for goals and assists.

Bergwijn - Only played 6 games before injury so not reasonable to assess him. But in Netherlands he has getting about 1 goal in 4 games and similar numbers of assists meaning close to 1 in 2 goals and assists combined. So I'm hopeful the 22 year old may step up, but its clearly a risk.

Lo Celso - Love the player but he doesn't score that many or create that many assists, he's more a player to create the chances for the assist maker.

Parrott - Next season he may be loaned out of it may be his break out season, and 'break out' at aged 18 means something like 20 appearances with half of these being starts and less than 10 goals. So great potential but not an answer for next season.

So next season we have Kane and Son (but they cant play every game) and then making do with either Bergwijn or Moura on the right wing, with either Dele or Lo Celso as no 10, with Parrott, Sessegnon and Lamela available.

So one of the players we need to buy (alongside DM, CB, FB's) is a goalscorer, whether playing as a striker (but how we rotate him and Kane is clearly an issue unless Kane plays as no 10) or a winger/striker.

That might mean sacrificing Moura and Lamela, but for the right player we should be a lot stronger.

Whilst we need to strengthen our defensive options, if we don't bring in another goalscorer we will struggle to score the goals to win enough games.

So a CM/AM like Sabitzer isn't any part of the answer for that, if he's bought it has to be as a cm or dm and probably only if Ndombele is sold (as Sabitzer would want to be first choice.

And with another overseas trained player coming in we will need to review how to increase our HG options and prioritise which other positions we fill with overseas trained players as it wont be easy to offload many of our existing overseas trained players.

This is very cogent, I make it 100% right. We would be better carefully searching world football for a player not to spell Kane but replaced him. That means twenty goals in all competitions. Be that a young gun, someone like Danny Ings ( I mean in profile as there is no way Saints sell). Its almost as big a priority as the open sore at fullback and defensive midfield.

 

[Brian Fantana]

News

www.southamptonfc.com

“I think had [Pochettino} stayed, I’d still be at Tottenham,” Walker-Peters states.

“He was never really big on loans. There were always opportunities for him to send me on loan and he never did, so I think that showed his faith in me.

“Despite not playing me all the time, it showed that he wanted me around. If he hadn’t left, I don’t think I’d be on loan, so it just shows how fast football can change.

“Mourinho comes in and I get to play one game, but I don’t really get an opportunity like I thought I would, in terms of two or three games rotating with Serge Aurier, but the manager has to make decisions. That was his decision, so that’s fine."

Those quotes don’t actually paint KWP in the greatest of lights. Seems to me he wasn’t strong enough with Poch. Hard for him to rock the boat though being a spurs fan. He probably didn’t want to stand up to him and be booted out like Townsend and bentaleb for example.

 

[Jenny Talia]

Tottenham want to sign Inter Milan's Uruguay defender Diego Godin, 34, as Spurs boss Jose Mourinho looks to re-shape his defence. (Mirror)

If he suggests that Levy will have him sectioned.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

Those quotes don’t actually paint KWP in the greatest of lights. Seems to me he wasn’t strong enough with Poch. Hard for him to rock the boat though being a spurs fan. He probably didn’t want to stand up to him and be booted out like Townsend and bentaleb for example.

He comes across as one for whom the lift doesn't go to the top. How could you possibly feel valued if the manager almost never chooses you?

Of course the bigger issue here is Poch's bizarre attitude towards player development.

 

[Brian Fantana]

He comes across as one for whom the lift doesn't go to the top. How could you possibly feel valued if the manager almost never chooses you?

Of course the bigger issue here is Poch's bizarre attitude towards player development.

Theres been no youth player who’s had his career damaged more by the club in recent years than KWP. From the player he was in youth teams to now is a detriment to the club and it’s development of players. He’d been crying out to go on loan like when mason and Townsend went to Yeovil all those years ago. Yet was kept around the squad as an extra in training. He didn’t even get a run out in under 23 games. A bit like how Parrott and skipp were treated under Poch (and partially by Mourinho although I think they would both of gone out on loan in January had we made more signings) in the last 18 months.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

Maybe now you will be able to follow your dreams, bus-conductor .

Arsenal transfer news as Nabil Fekir emerges as Dani Ceballos replacement

Nabil Fekir was previously close to joining Liverpool and could now finally get his Premier League transfer as Woolwich consider a move to replace Dani Ceballos

tinyurl.com

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

In terms of our attack, the cognitive issues are ones of intelligence and footballing application of that intelligence which manifests itself in decision making by players with and without the ball, how they read what's happening, where they move, what they choose to do with the ball when they receive it and the ongoing learning process of these situations and the lack of improvement in them.

The technical issues are ones of of a more physical nature when confronted with the ball at their feet and their ability to control and move it or move with it to successful effect.

But even this is often effected detrimentally by those poor decisions, which are made due to a lack of intelligence or cognitive skills. Hence, my original statement.

Alli, Moura, Son and Lamela are all capable of moments of technical proficiency but that technique gets flustered when they make poor decisions or by the lack the cognitive functionality to realise they've been in this situation many times and what to do to effect the best outcome.

I don't think we have many intelligent attacking footballers at all. I think their reading of situational problems is often poor, their movement (in and out of possession) lacks intelligence, which again puts pressure on them, and effects their technical ability, and their decision making is generally poor.

In other areas this is also the case. Players like Sissoko obviously, and Aurier are good examples - Aurier is technically very good, until he's under any kind of pressure, then he does really rash things. because he lacks the intelligence to make better decisions under pressure and the cognitive ability to learn from those situations.


Fekir is technically more composed more assured than most of our current group of AM's/FWDs, and is also more intelligent in his decision making.

Are you saying you'd prefer all of Alli, Lamela, Bergwijn, Moura to Fekir ? Especially with Fekir costing less last summer, aged 24 than all of those bar Alli cost us previously?

How many cerebral midfielders or attackers does Nagelsmann have at his disposal?

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

And how do you know it is a 'cognitive issue'? How do you know it is not a technical root? Take Dele for instance (and you need not address this because A-it will sidetrack and B- it is merely to illustrate a point of the technical being the root cause of him not doing something that you may attribute to the cognitive).

Spoiler: examples

Three or so years ago Poch said that Dele doesn't like to play from the rightside. It was obvious and most should have picked up on it. And if you think back to his whole time here he rarely goes onto the right except in the box. Why is that? The answer is technical, because he cannot bring the ball in-field from the right as he would be forced to dribble with his left (can't) or use his right thus presenting the ball for a challenge. Ever take notice of his long aimless dribbles up-field, diagonally left. Again, dribbling diagonally left with your right foot is the only way to 'protect' the ball from a defender on their goal-side. And why does he hold the ball and miss runs by other players? Because he cannot deliver from that position so he dribbles over to the channel and turns back. It's happened a million times and it's a technical deficiency not a cognitive deficiency.

Take Eriksen, the brains of it all. Ever notice how many times the ball popped up on his first touch thus losing a half-beat? IMO it was mostly because he had no intention of going forward on the half-turn so he wasn't focused on his otherwise good touch. His inability to hold the ball against pressure, technical, let him down and it really showed in a crucial game when he almost gave it all away last season. Was that his cognitive deficiency or was it technical? Did the brainy CE looked stressed when he gave that ball away? Yes, he was shitting himself because he got it in an unfamiliar position with someone on his back

Take Lamela who does well for only having 1 foot but can only move to certain positions because of this and has been caught out frequently because of this deficiency. Add to it his inability to strike a ball without falling and I find it hard to see past his technical deficiencies to worry about mental mistakes.

Just examples though. But he first touches on Moura, Dele, Sonny, Harry (sometimes) make me wonder why someone would look to the mental when the physical is so glaring. Hard to be thinking what will I do next when I'm consciously thinking about trapping a ball within 4 feet of myself.

they may have been in these situations multiple time but if they don't have the technical ability to pull it off then why would you expect a different outcome. And IMO not a single one of those players has improved their technical ability - none really looks more comfortable on the ball than they did when they got here. Sonny has been great but I wouldn't hesitate to recruit on top of him because his touch is unreliable. In fact I believe I addressed this in the DOF thread.


And I don't think we have many technically proficient footballers...and as we know you are taught the technical aspects before the tactical and there's a reason for that. doesn't really matter if you make the right runs if you can't control the ball when you get there or strike it like Sissoko does it? Right. Being technically proficient is the horse in front of that cart you want moved.


A player that can control a ball looks no more stressed under pressure than without pressure. What puts pressure on their technical ability is their lack of technical ability IMO. Did Dembele ever look stressed receiving the ball? Modric? Many dozens of others in La Liga? Dani Parejo look stressed receiving the ball? Does Dele look stressed receiving the ball while posted in the left half-space? Nope because he knows what to do there and has faith in his ability to control it or go backwards. What about anywhere else under pressure? Not quite the same. But he makes decent decisions from the LHS.

Spoiler: examples

Sissoko lacks technical ability period and that is no comment on his intelligence. There is no way him getting the ball in any tight situation and it going wrong can or should be attributed to 'intelligence'. Taht's agenda. If we put your ass out there you'd fuck up everytime and i assume that since you are the arbiter here on who or what's intelligent you consider yourself mentally prepared to make good decisions in those situations, right? But it would be your technical ability, or lack thereof, that let you down. There would be a 'quickness of thought' issue as well since you'd need to train to pep that up but ultimately it would be technical issues letting you down.

And this is my point, how do you tease out the technical from the mental? I've rarely seen a 'dumb' player. What I often see is a player let down by their technical ability and the pressure pushing them into a mistake. Dier against Liverpool are classic examples. Dier is not a dumb player nor is he technically deficient (relative to our other many cloggers). What he is is a player that is not technically good enough to do it in the MF. Not having wing mirrors, a mental clock, the ability to hold against pressure, opening his body to the field when receiving, etc are technical problems. His perfect throughballs to Salah may look stupid but the problem wasn't mental.

I'd quibble with that last part but he also holds the ball and those decisions are based of him doing his own thing first. This man would make Dele look like DeBruyne with how many touches he would need. No one was sad he left Lyon for a reason.

Not sure you've convinced that our biggest attacking problem is 'brains'. And even if it were I'm not sure Fekir would be the one to address it. With the choice I would have preferred Bruno and I'm not fond of him either. But at least he can get about the pitch.

There is no doubt that you are a haughty little man, but that was a wonderful post. Flawless logic.

 

[bus-conductor]

How many cerebral midfielders or attackers does Nagelsmann have at his disposal?

Is this like a how many Renato Sanches’s does it take to change a light bulb joke?

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

Is this like a how many Renato Sanches’s does it take to change a light bulb joke?

No. How many cerebral players does Nagelsmann have?

 

[bus-conductor]

And how do you know it is a 'cognitive issue'? How do you know it is not a technical root? Take Dele for instance (and you need not address this because A-it will sidetrack and B- it is merely to illustrate a point of the technical being the root cause of him not doing something that you may attribute to the cognitive).

Spoiler: examples

Three or so years ago Poch said that Dele doesn't like to play from the rightside. It was obvious and most should have picked up on it. And if you think back to his whole time here he rarely goes onto the right except in the box. Why is that? The answer is technical, because he cannot bring the ball in-field from the right as he would be forced to dribble with his left (can't) or use his right thus presenting the ball for a challenge. Ever take notice of his long aimless dribbles up-field, diagonally left. Again, dribbling diagonally left with your right foot is the only way to 'protect' the ball from a defender on their goal-side. And why does he hold the ball and miss runs by other players? Because he cannot deliver from that position so he dribbles over to the channel and turns back. It's happened a million times and it's a technical deficiency not a cognitive deficiency.

Take Eriksen, the brains of it all. Ever notice how many times the ball popped up on his first touch thus losing a half-beat? IMO it was mostly because he had no intention of going forward on the half-turn so he wasn't focused on his otherwise good touch. His inability to hold the ball against pressure, technical, let him down and it really showed in a crucial game when he almost gave it all away last season. Was that his cognitive deficiency or was it technical? Did the brainy CE looked stressed when he gave that ball away? Yes, he was shitting himself because he got it in an unfamiliar position with someone on his back

Take Lamela who does well for only having 1 foot but can only move to certain positions because of this and has been caught out frequently because of this deficiency. Add to it his inability to strike a ball without falling and I find it hard to see past his technical deficiencies to worry about mental mistakes.

Just examples though. But he first touches on Moura, Dele, Sonny, Harry (sometimes) make me wonder why someone would look to the mental when the physical is so glaring. Hard to be thinking what will I do next when I'm consciously thinking about trapping a ball within 4 feet of myself.

they may have been in these situations multiple time but if they don't have the technical ability to pull it off then why would you expect a different outcome. And IMO not a single one of those players has improved their technical ability - none really looks more comfortable on the ball than they did when they got here. Sonny has been great but I wouldn't hesitate to recruit on top of him because his touch is unreliable. In fact I believe I addressed this in the DOF thread.


And I don't think we have many technically proficient footballers...and as we know you are taught the technical aspects before the tactical and there's a reason for that. doesn't really matter if you make the right runs if you can't control the ball when you get there or strike it like Sissoko does it? Right. Being technically proficient is the horse in front of that cart you want moved.


A player that can control a ball looks no more stressed under pressure than without pressure. What puts pressure on their technical ability is their lack of technical ability IMO. Did Dembele ever look stressed receiving the ball? Modric? Many dozens of others in La Liga? Dani Parejo look stressed receiving the ball? Does Dele look stressed receiving the ball while posted in the left half-space? Nope because he knows what to do there and has faith in his ability to control it or go backwards. What about anywhere else under pressure? Not quite the same. But he makes decent decisions from the LHS.

Spoiler: examples

Sissoko lacks technical ability period and that is no comment on his intelligence. There is no way him getting the ball in any tight situation and it going wrong can or should be attributed to 'intelligence'. Taht's agenda. If we put your ass out there you'd fuck up everytime and i assume that since you are the arbiter here on who or what's intelligent you consider yourself mentally prepared to make good decisions in those situations, right? But it would be your technical ability, or lack thereof, that let you down. There would be a 'quickness of thought' issue as well since you'd need to train to pep that up but ultimately it would be technical issues letting you down.

And this is my point, how do you tease out the technical from the mental? I've rarely seen a 'dumb' player. What I often see is a player let down by their technical ability and the pressure pushing them into a mistake. Dier against Liverpool are classic examples. Dier is not a dumb player nor is he technically deficient (relative to our other many cloggers). What he is is a player that is not technically good enough to do it in the MF. Not having wing mirrors, a mental clock, the ability to hold against pressure, opening his body to the field when receiving, etc are technical problems. His perfect throughballs to Salah may look stupid but the problem wasn't mental.

I'd quibble with that last part but he also holds the ball and those decisions are based of him doing his own thing first. This man would make Dele look like DeBruyne with how many touches he would need. No one was sad he left Lyon for a reason.

Not sure you've convinced that our biggest attacking problem is 'brains'. And even if it were I'm not sure Fekir would be the one to address it. With the choice I would have preferred Bruno and I'm not fond of him either. But at least he can get about the pitch.

But before players learn footballing technique, they learn. They learn to problem solve. To overcome issues to get what and where they want. To navigate. To read their environment. They do this before they can even walk, let alone control a football.

Your Eriksen example perfectly makes my case for me.

You are right, of course, about his technique under extreme pressure of an opponent in close proximity. In those scenarios his technique could often be no better than the likes of Alli, Moura, Son etc. And what makes him an even more perfect case study for my theory, is that he wasn't a great athlete either.

But why do we not think of Eriksen so much in this way, why do we not really look back and think of him as one of the chief bumblers? As a lazy fucker?

Because what lifted Eriksen up above those players as a consistent contributor to our play, ( and some capable of pure technical moments far greater than Eriksen's technical abilities - like Son being able to dribble 80 yards past a number of opponents etc), for much of the time was his superior intelligence. His cognitive ability to learn to adapt to achieve his aim. To move into positions where he could make himself available (more than all of our other attacking players) despite his technical deficiencies, and thus giving himself a better chance of a more productive outcome, and then the intelligence to read the situation and make better subsequent decisions (despite having no better pure technique than some of the others) than the other attacking players we have, more often.

Eriksen is a perfect example of superior cognitive ability overcoming technical and athletic deficiencies.

 

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I'd quibble with that last part but he also holds the ball and those decisions are based of him doing his own thing first. This man would make Dele look like DeBruyne with how many touches he would need. No one was sad he left Lyon for a reason.

I would hate to label you intellectually dishonest, so by all means take this opportunity to back that claim up, before I do apply that label.

Lyon's inferior goals total and XG totals might disagree.

 

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todd1882
And I would also extend this lack of intelligence to Pochettino, who continually put players into counter intuitive situations and expected them to perform tasks they were ill equipped for. Like stating that he doesn't see Dier as a CM, and continually playing him as a CM (with no wing mirrors).

Like putting SIssoko into midfield and instructing your team to transition from back to front, via midfield, using a player technically totally inadequate to perform this conduit function.

Like playing Winks as deep lying playmaker or 6.

Like playing Moura as a CF when he lacks the physical presence, intelligence or composure to do it.

purchasing players that lacked footballing intelligence and had poor cognitive skills and technical ability.

And ultimately, not realising that, (maybe unlike Nagelsmann ? RESPECT THE COCK ), what mattered more to his ethos was fresh minds and legs - and not using the young fresh minds and legs he had ay his disposal to carry out his ethos better than the tired minds and legs he kept flogging.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

todd1882
And I would also extend this lack of intelligence to Pochettino, who continually put players into counter intuitive situations and expected them to perform tasks they were ill equipped for. Like stating that he doesn't see Dier as a CM, and continually playing him as a CM (with no wing mirrors).

Like putting SIssoko into midfield and instructing your team to transition from back to front, via midfield, using a player technically totally inadequate to perform this conduit function.

Like playing Winks as deep lying playmaker or 6.

Like playing Moura as a CF when he lacks the physical presence, intelligence or composure to do it.

And ultimately, not realising that, (maybe unlike Nagelsmann ? RESPECT THE COCK ), what mattered more to his ethos was fresh minds and legs - and not using the young fresh minds and legs he had ay his disposal to carry out his ethos better than the tired minds and legs he kept flogging.

 

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No. How many cerebral players does Nagelsmann have?

I'm honestly not sure. But it's not black and white. It's not about intelligence purely, but football intelligence and cognitive application in the football environment. And also the intelligence of the coach. Nagelsman might not have loads of naturally intelligent footballers, but he may so intelligent that he can teach them very well, or it may be that his footballers aren't all technically outstanding (you mentioned elsewhere that Sabitzer doesn't want the all under duress eg) but that they are tactically quite intellgent and able to follow his coached instructions well.

And it maybe that what is keeping Bayern and Dortmund ahead of RBL is more intelligent footballers, not superior coaching ?