You're right about one thing, this is very painful.
In the end it all boils down to the following:
Maybe you'll answer the two questions above openly, honestly and briefly........... Or maybe you won't.
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In the end it all boils down to the following:
Maybe you'll answer the two questions above openly, honestly and briefly........... Or maybe you won't.
I know its a different organisation but we have winter Olympics in China (and recent Olympics), money drives these decisions these days.
Yep agree with that.
Money drives everything,. Russia should be included as well
I have a lived in different parts of the Muslim world/Middle-East and had immediate family in Qatar as well so thought I'd weigh in a bit more on the different issues being discussed.
Firstly, the issue of women's rights. This is where I think some forum members are most off target. Qatar is not a Liberal country - and nor does it need to be imo. Those arguing for secular western morals to replace the local Islamic ones are free to present their arguments, however I have yet to see someone actually view these things from a Qatari lens. Muslim men and women in Qatar don't view religion and religious values in the same way as those in the West.
Whereas many Westerners view their history as one of religious persecution right up till the Enlightenment era (a bit of an unfair reading of history especially with regards to many of the good things that have come from Christianity imo), Muslims view their history very differently. The Islamic "Golden Age" occurred during the religious leadership and the decline began after. You can superimpose your secular presuppositions onto a people if you want but it makes for useless dialogue.
Anyway, the issue of women is not some sort of oppression narrative that is being spun here. From being managers at work to dominating the educational sphere, women have many rights. Female students now surpass males. Traditionally male dominated industries like Engineering are fast becoming occupied by women. In the public sector, female employment has almost caught up to the level of male employment, although there is still a slight wage gap. Crime statistics like rape or sexual assault against women are also considerably lower than many Western nations making it a safe place generally.
The issue of homosexuality is where forum members are a little more accurate. There is a general understanding that what people do in their private homes is upto them but you won't ever find any public promotion of any LGBT issues. That is way too taboo.
Whilst the theoretical law contains harsh punishments, everyone understands they are a deterrent and not to be implemented. In fact I doubt you'll find any execution or physical punishment ever carried about by the Qatari government in recent decades. The general consensus here is that homsexual relationships are morally wrong and morally impermissible things cannot be promoted in the public view. In private what you do in your home is your business. In a visible display of hypocrisy however, Qatars main International station, Al Jazeera, recognised LGBT pride month and the government said it will allow LGBT flags at the World Cup, all whilst still banning public promotion of LGBT issues at the same time.
The issue of treatment of foreign stadium workers is fairly well known. Many have died and many have their passports taken away in order to control their movement. My family has interacted with these foreign workers and tried to help their situation in small ways. Not all are treated badly, it all depends in which area they end up in but the worst stories are absolutely horrifying. If there was one reason why Qatar should not get the world cup, then this would be it. These issues are arising directly because of the World Cup.
Firstly, the issue of women's rights. This is where I think some forum members are most off target. Qatar is not a Liberal country - and nor does it need to be imo. Those arguing for secular western morals to replace the local Islamic ones are free to present their arguments, however I have yet to see someone actually view these things from a Qatari lens. Muslim men and women in Qatar don't view religion and religious values in the same way as those in the West.
Whereas many Westerners view their history as one of religious persecution right up till the Enlightenment era (a bit of an unfair reading of history especially with regards to many of the good things that have come from Christianity imo), Muslims view their history very differently. The Islamic "Golden Age" occurred during the religious leadership and the decline began after. You can superimpose your secular presuppositions onto a people if you want but it makes for useless dialogue.
Anyway, the issue of women is not some sort of oppression narrative that is being spun here. From being managers at work to dominating the educational sphere, women have many rights. Female students now surpass males. Traditionally male dominated industries like Engineering are fast becoming occupied by women. In the public sector, female employment has almost caught up to the level of male employment, although there is still a slight wage gap. Crime statistics like rape or sexual assault against women are also considerably lower than many Western nations making it a safe place generally.
The issue of homosexuality is where forum members are a little more accurate. There is a general understanding that what people do in their private homes is upto them but you won't ever find any public promotion of any LGBT issues. That is way too taboo.
Whilst the theoretical law contains harsh punishments, everyone understands they are a deterrent and not to be implemented. In fact I doubt you'll find any execution or physical punishment ever carried about by the Qatari government in recent decades. The general consensus here is that homsexual relationships are morally wrong and morally impermissible things cannot be promoted in the public view. In private what you do in your home is your business. In a visible display of hypocrisy however, Qatars main International station, Al Jazeera, recognised LGBT pride month and the government said it will allow LGBT flags at the World Cup, all whilst still banning public promotion of LGBT issues at the same time.
The issue of treatment of foreign stadium workers is fairly well known. Many have died and many have their passports taken away in order to control their movement. My family has interacted with these foreign workers and tried to help their situation in small ways. Not all are treated badly, it all depends in which area they end up in but the worst stories are absolutely horrifying. If there was one reason why Qatar should not get the world cup, then this would be it. These issues are arising directly because of the World Cup.
what a well-balanced account - it'll never catch on!
Good post
I dunno, I'm not the FA. Why are you asking me?
How predictable. Let me rephrase.
Do YOU think it would be OK to send a team to a country that, by its own laws, discriminates against black people?
If the answer is no, do YOU then think that its OK to send a team to a country, that by its own laws, discriminates against gay people?
Maybe you will now answer the two very simple questions above, but I doubt it.
You're very robotic and repetative.
I think we should go there and make a clear statement that we disagree with their laws. Simply not going makes it easier to brush under the carpet
I think we should go there and make a clear statement that we disagree with their laws. Simply not going makes it easier to brush under the carpet
The fact that you are unwilling to answer two very simple questions speaks volumes.
I'll try one last time.
So you believe that we should of sent teams to South Africa when they had apartheid so that we could "make a clear statement" regarding their laws?
My answer to that question is clear. So clear that you've quoted it, and extracted part of it in quotation marks, as part of your rewording of the same question that I've already answered.
For clarity, I'll copy and paste it here, so that you can read it again.
I think we should go there and make a clear statement that we disagree with their laws. Simply not going makes it easier to brush under the carpet.
Feel free to disagree with me, (I've no problems with that whatsoever, and would be disappointed if you didn't), but please don't come back at me with the same thing again because I think my stance is clear.
I do disagree with you 100%, but a simple
"Yes, I do agree with sending teams to unjust, oppressive, discriminatory regimes."
would have sufficed.
I'm still salty that we didn't get it here in Australia. It would have been so bloody good.
I don't want to get involved in the rest of this conversation, but do you really believe that a major international side boycotting the World Cup would not be massive news?
Of course, we need to qualify before we can do that really, so maybe we will eventually.
Yeah, I already said earlier in the conversation (which I don't blame you one bit for not getting involved with - I barely want anything to do with it either) that England can't be expected to make any grand gestures before even qualifying for the world cup.
I guess I agree it'd be big news, but I don't think our great bunch of incredibly socially conscious players (to an unprecedented level, at least in our times) have anything to prove, and would support them however they chose to make a statement. If they felt that they'd prefer go to the world cup and make the statement there then I'm fine with that.
There will be a lot more fallout surrounding this world cup yet, I'm sure.
My honest opinion is that sending a team to any oppressive, unjust and discriminative country and have them take the knee or wear rainbow colours etc etc, will change or affect fuck all.
On the other hand, not sending a team, although it would be bigger news, would also change or affect fuck all.
FIFA, as a corrupt organisation itself, will change or affect fuck all.
However, if all the major footballing countries were to say "we will not be sending a team to this country, regardless of whether we qualify", then maybe, just maybe FIFA will stop awarding the world cup to these countries.
Meanwhile, in the real world...