Video Assistant Referee

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The thing with VAR that absolutely must change is these armpit offsides. They are guessing what's underneath a players shirt sleeve and assigning an arbitrary line to where they think their upper arm probably begins. Then ruling out goals because of it.

I think everyone would accept offside decisions via VAR if they just ignored the arms. There will be painfully tight ones but if we are judging them by the position of the head/feet/trunk then it's fine. Everyone has had those ones for and against them and they are clearly demonstrable.

You cannot be ruling out goals by a 1cm offside by estimating where a players upper arm begins. If the arm is the only part of the body that is beyond the offside line then it shouldn't be given offside. They need to change the rule.
 
The thing with VAR that absolutely must change is these armpit offsides. They are guessing what's underneath a players shirt sleeve and assigning an arbitrary line to where they think their upper arm probably begins. Then ruling out goals because of it.

I think everyone would accept offside decisions via VAR if they just ignored the arms. There will be painfully tight ones but if we are judging them by the position of the head/feet/trunk then it's fine. Everyone has had those ones for and against them and they are clearly demonstrable.

You cannot be ruling out goals by a 1cm offside by estimating where a players upper arm begins. If the arm is the only part of the body that is beyond the offside line then it shouldn't be given offside. They need to change the rule.
...but then you create a new problem - where does the arm end and the body begin? You're just moving the problem a few inches.

We'll all be screaming, "That's not his body, it's his arm!". And we'll probably be right.

I don't think there is a solution using the current technology. You either don't use VAR, or you accept that mistakes will be made. Given that mistakes also used to be made by linesmen and referees, my opinion is that we ought to go back to that system - at least it doesn't spoil the flow of the game like VAR does.

Until they can introduce an instantaneous, 100% accurate system (like the goal-line tech one is supposed to be), bin VAR. It's wrecking the game.
 
Scott Parker made the same point I made months ago - people can accept a ref's mistake in real time, but they are still making mistakes after using VAR. What a joke it is.
 
Was just thinking why don't we have a system with the refs that release their match reports at the end of every season. It would mean transparency for fans and would go a long way into us understanding some of these decisions better.

If you see a full report of each match decision, why it was made at the time it could help the referees a lot. We all know mistakes are made, but football is opinions and while some errors are just plain errors, some can be borderline and I can give a ref the benefit of the doubt if they draw a conclusion that I don't agree with because I know football can sometimes be borderline decisions such as was a tackle a foul etc.

It will also show many times they get decisions correct and if people can see for example OK that ref made an error in this particular match, but he got this and this correct across these matches with no real problems, or even within the same match as he made a big error, just something in writing fans can go to as a reason.

The silence for me is what kills fans and your left scratching your head.
 
Was just thinking why don't we have a system with the refs that release their match reports at the end of every season. It would mean transparency for fans and would go a long way into us understanding some of these decisions better.

If you see a full report of each match decision, why it was made at the time it could help the referees a lot. We all know mistakes are made, but football is opinions and while some errors are just plain errors, some can be borderline and I can give a ref the benefit of the doubt if they draw a conclusion that I don't agree with because I know football can sometimes be borderline decisions such as was a tackle a foul etc.

It will also show many times they get decisions correct and if people can see for example OK that ref made an error in this particular match, but he got this and this correct across these matches with no real problems, or even within the same match as he made a big error, just something in writing fans can go to as a reason.

The silence for me is what kills fans and your left scratching your head.

Firstly referees don't make such a match report
Also to be honest people judging decisions to decide if they are big errors or not (yes the general public and footballers), invariably have no idea of the laws of the game, and are usually biased towards their team to the nth degree. What they consider is an offence against their team, they would never consider an offence if committed by their team
 
They used hands instead of armpits to work out offside in that game. There is no set standard of what to use to decide close offsides. After investing all that in technology, why not set a clear standard as well.
The standard is offside is offside.
Isn’t that the whole point? Finger, toe doesn’t matter
 
Yup, it should be the furthest part of the body. But sometimes they use both players arms , or feet or hands. Its just based on what the ref has decided that day instead of a set rule.

No it isn't decided on what a referee decides on the day, where do you make this stuff up.

Offside is judged for both attacker and defender as nearest towards defending sides goal , any part of the body that a player can legally play the ball with, which means does not include the arm below "T-Shirt line" (note the area changed from below shoulder to "T-Shirt line" from start of this season, as handball law changed making it legal to score a goal if it hits your upper arm)
Last night looked very messy from a process point of view with lines going on and off though from what I understand
 
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Was just thinking why don't we have a system with the refs that release their match reports at the end of every season. It would mean transparency for fans and would go a long way into us understanding some of these decisions better.

If you see a full report of each match decision, why it was made at the time it could help the referees a lot. We all know mistakes are made, but football is opinions and while some errors are just plain errors, some can be borderline and I can give a ref the benefit of the doubt if they draw a conclusion that I don't agree with because I know football can sometimes be borderline decisions such as was a tackle a foul etc.

It will also show many times they get decisions correct and if people can see for example OK that ref made an error in this particular match, but he got this and this correct across these matches with no real problems, or even within the same match as he made a big error, just something in writing fans can go to as a reason.

The silence for me is what kills fans and your left scratching your head.
I'm not 100% sure that "i gave that penalty so I don't get death threats from scousers" or "i sent player x off cos there was a bag of money in the dressing room" will make the reports
 
The thing with VAR that absolutely must change is these armpit offsides. They are guessing what's underneath a players shirt sleeve and assigning an arbitrary line to where they think their upper arm probably begins. Then ruling out goals because of it.

I think everyone would accept offside decisions via VAR if they just ignored the arms. There will be painfully tight ones but if we are judging them by the position of the head/feet/trunk then it's fine. Everyone has had those ones for and against them and they are clearly demonstrable.

You cannot be ruling out goals by a 1cm offside by estimating where a players upper arm begins. If the arm is the only part of the body that is beyond the offside line then it shouldn't be given offside. They need to change the rule.

You mean everyone would accept them just like last season, when the "armpit offsides" were not a factor ?.
You must have forgotten last season then, all that has changed is we must get rid of these "toenail" or insert another body part offsides, with "armpit offsides"

It doesn't matter what the criteria for setting offsides are, be it just take feet only, 10cm, clear space, whole body, exclude arms, there will always be a line that has to be drawn somewhere, and people will not accept them if they are a few mm either side of that line.
All we can ask for is they are consistently applied (which in my view they are) or go back to not using the technology for offsides, which the clubs will never accept, (until such time fans totally boycott their grounds so they are losing money due to it).
 
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You mean they would accept them just like last season, when the "armpit offsides" were not a factor ?.

It doesn't matter what the criteria for setting offsides are, be it just feet, 10cm, clear space, whole body, exclude arms, there will always be a line somewhere, and people will not accept them if they are 1mm either side of that line.

Well yeah, there is always going to be a line. But the principle they are applying now is just stupid. Take that Ings one from last night.

How has he gained an unfair advantage by 0.5 cm of his shirt protruding beyond the last defender? Too many good goals are being ruled out for infractions that belong in a trigonometry class and not a sport.

There are limits to how strictly we should apply technology to the game. We could use 3D replays to check whether every throw in is taken from the exact right spot, but would that be an appropriate use of our time and technology? No, which is why we don’t do it.

I don’t know exactly what the solution is but I think most people would tolerate a slightly more lenient application of offside, at least when it comes to looking at players arms. We are applying a level of punishing technological accuracy to the sport that is not possible for the human beings on the pitch to replicate.

They need to refocus on the clear and obvious error principle. When Ings scored, the linesman kept his flag down and the referee signalled that it was a goal. Based on the fraction of shirt poking beyond the defender, is it a clear and obvious error to give the goal? No. I’d rather they make decisions like that rather than ruling out so many good goals for offsides that no linesman could see ever see in real time.
 
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idk if anyone was watching but Che Adams goal to make it potentially 4-1 looked onside.
No idea where they were measuring but someones foot was infront of Adams so he was being played onside. For some reason the lines didn't show this.
 
Well yeah, there is always going to be a line. But the principle they are applying now is just stupid. Take that Ings one from last night.

How has he gained an unfair advantage by 0.5 cm of his shirt protruding beyond the last defender? Too many good goals are being ruled out for infractions that belong in a trigonometry class and not a sport.

There are limits to how strictly we should apply technology to the game. We could use 3D replays to check whether every throw in is taken from the exact right spot, but would that be an appropriate use of our time and technology? No, which is why we don’t do it.

I don’t know exactly what the solution is but I think most people would tolerate a slightly more lenient application of offside, at least when it comes to looking at players arms. We are applying a level of punishing technological accuracy to the sport that is not possible for the human beings on the pitch to replicate.

They need to refocus on the clear and obvious error principle. When Ings scored, the linesman kept his flag down and the referee signalled that it was a goal. Based on the fraction of shirt poking beyond the defender, is it a clear and obvious error to give the goal? No. I’d rather they make decisions like that rather than ruling out so many good goals for offsides that no linesman could see ever see in real time.

Totally agree with and accept your viewpoint. I go to games to see goals and entertainment, and good play being rewarded, and obviously my team overcoming the oppositions.
However it is the law that needs to change somehow. Let's say that was a last minute goal to decide the title and somebody according to the laws of the game was offside but by a very small margin, and it was just ignored, and became a subjective "clear and obvious", despite offsides being a factual decision there would be hell to pay.

The game has changed due to the insane money involved at top level and the technology, the laws have not yet adapted to the technology age, it will come. Will the game ever be as enjoyable as it was due to it, no, spontaneity, even the celebration of a goal have reduced, but the clubs want correct decisions, and have basically said "We are doing this, if you don't like it watch another sport, or watch football at lower level where VAR is not used"

All that will happen is the law might change to there must be daylight, or take feet only, and there will still be very marginal decisions that will still cause the same arguments. If law changed to say 10cm, and it was 9.99 or 10.01, we would just have same arguments, but would have just changed goalposts.
VAR and tight offside calls are here to stay, fans just need to make personal decision whether the game at the top level is still for them due to it.
 
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Was just thinking why don't we have a system with the refs that release their match reports at the end of every season. It would mean transparency for fans and would go a long way into us understanding some of these decisions better.

If you see a full report of each match decision, why it was made at the time it could help the referees a lot. We all know mistakes are made, but football is opinions and while some errors are just plain errors, some can be borderline and I can give a ref the benefit of the doubt if they draw a conclusion that I don't agree with because I know football can sometimes be borderline decisions such as was a tackle a foul etc.

It will also show many times they get decisions correct and if people can see for example OK that ref made an error in this particular match, but he got this and this correct across these matches with no real problems, or even within the same match as he made a big error, just something in writing fans can go to as a reason.

The silence for me is what kills fans and your left scratching your head.
I agree and disagree in equal measure.

As someone that simply detests VAR in all of it's forms it's still boils down to a) how a law is interpreted b) how a law is applied c) the consistency of both of these.

Add also into the mix that these are also deliberately changing/evolving throughout the season just complicates, frustrates and confuses everyone (players, officials, pundits, media and fans). e.g what was handball at the beginning of the season isn't considered handball now (what is considered handball is completly up for debate). The same too with offsides, it's an armpit, now a T-Shirt line. How far do they take it back, review the line in microscopic detail but ignore the fact that there was a foul in the build-up half a second beforehand!!!! Or the reason why player x touched the ball with his arm was because player y pushed him in the back that caused the infringement in the first place.

Is VAR there to overrule a mistake by the ref? Or is it there to determine that it's a clear and obvious error? What is a clear and obvious error? Who gets to interpret this? Is that consistently applied?

They came out with the video dialog between ref and VAR with the CL Sissoko handball, all it proved is they made their mind up after 22 seconds, one angle reviewed "100% pen" communicated without a single slow-mo or no other camera angle, had they done this they would have noticed the ball coming off his chest, which under the laws of the game is clear that it's no pen. Do I feel better on hearing the dialogue? Fuck no, it's even worse!!!

You then get an absolute helmet like Peter Walton on TV talking live about the decision:
“Sissoko’s arm is so pronounced it’s unbelievable and when you see the ball coming across like that… yes, it may hit his chest but his arm actually comes down towards the ball as well. That gives the referee Skomina no option whatsoever but to award a penalty kick,” Walton said.
But wait this is what the LAW SAYS!!!
It is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

  • directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)

In fact Peter Walton appears to get almost every call wrong in the studio, it's becoming a meme:









Peter Walton who said the ref + VAR were correct to disallow Son's pen and book him..........



You are specifically allowed to stop your run-up, it's against the law to do that whilst in the act of kicking the ball.......


Sorry, I've gone off on a rant here but TDLR: Never in the history of the sport has there been so many changes to the laws of the game, to the interpretations of the laws and how they are applied. THIS is the problem and the cause is down to VAR.

Bin the fucking thing and accept mistakes are made by humans, players, managers and the officials. Have the media pledge not to have dinosaur ex-refs in the studio who because they are so out of touch only exacerbate the problem and have the media acknowledge that they were the ones responsible in the first place by replacing analysis with replays of "incidents" and have them agree via a pledge to having game analysis, not incident replays going forward.
 
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