What’s this about the pod encouraging fans to grass up Moura?

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Lickher said:
Also many people attribute supporting Bolsonaro with an affinity for beating up trans people.. ever heard of an ideological spectrum? Many Brazilians support Bolsonaro as a reaction to the corruption of Lula and the workers party as well as because of Bolsonaro close ties with the Catholic Church in the country. Not everyone who supports Trump thinks that Mexicans are rapists!

This is the problem with the left, they ignore genuine and fair grievances from those who are more conservative minded and instead just call them racists or rapists for disagreeing with extreme left views! Pretty much how Windy thinks and is why Trump was elected in the first place.
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Confused as to what these 'extreme left' views are meant to be in this case. Not judge others for the way they were born when they're harming nobody? Treat said people with dignity and respect, and allow them to function in society as normal? These sound like basic moral values to me, nothing extreme about it.

Bolsonaro doesn't follow these values (in fact he's pretty openly proud of being against them) and so he's objectively a pretty terrible person. That doesn't mean everyone voting for him is terrible, but it sadly does mean, at the very least, they've decided that people's right to basic respect is secondary.
 
Raumdeuterz said:
Confused as to what these 'extreme left' views are meant to be in this case. Not judge others for the way they were born when they're harming nobody? Treat said people with dignity and respect, and allow them to function in society as normal? These sound like basic moral values to me, nothing extreme about it.

Bolsonaro doesn't follow these values (in fact he's pretty openly proud of being against them) and so he's objectively a pretty terrible person. That doesn't mean everyone voting for him is terrible, but it sadly does mean, at the very least, they've decided that people's right to basic respect is secondary.
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Well that's the funny thing about politics, though. It's always a case of choosing primary concerns over secondary ones, and I think this is what a lot of the Left forget a lot of the time.

In a perfect world, we would all have the luxury of sitting around and attempting to solve any and all inequities which affect society, and argue our moral case as the chief (if not only) valid concern. The problem is that there are many other issues which are usually a little more pressing. As much as you and I (and probably most people here) agree that trans folks are people and deserve the same respect as anyone else, they're also a very tiny percentage of society (~0.4% of people last I checked), which means that if the electorate in any given country has to choose between expanding trans roles in film or mandating pronouns vs solving massive economic depression and inequality, most likely they are going to prioritize whatever is most pressing to THEM.

Woke folks typically treat these niche concerns as grave, overriding threats to society, whereas the bulk of society has no idea what they're even talking about, or couldn't care less when their family members are destitute. And that's apart from the people who just outright disagree for various reasons, in this case likely religious, and are still entitled to their voice even if the consensus here in the secular West is different.

I think the reason the backlash becomes so severe is due to the intense moralizing that seems to always come along with online discussion of these priorities. I think the point being made is that people are tired of being called various forms of bigot due to their political choices or affiliation.
 
LeParisien said:
Im going to push back on what you said.

People who voted for trump might not have been attracted by the racism and affiliation with the far right but they were willing to stay despite it. In other words, Trump’s racism and open mocking off the disabled and constant lies were never a deal breaker for his voters.

Bolsonero has very clearly supported and said things that no dignified person should support. His comments about Pinochet, and rape and homosexuality are disgraceful and you should be ashamed to defend him.

The fact you use corruption and Catholicism as reasons to support him are doubly despicable (and I don’t use that word lightly). Bolsonero’s belief in democracy is tenuous at best and the pope is a far more fair-minded, empathetic individual than Bolsonero could ever be. The current pope would never encourage beating or killing homosexuals and he would never say rape is too good for a woman he has branded ugly.

When you pretend that Bolsonero’s views are in any way reasonable or part of normal political discourse then that unfortunately says more about you than it does the world.
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I’m not going to address all your points because I don’t have time or patience to write essays back and forth, what you have said is fair but the United States is a bipartisan system of government .. those who are right of centre were unfortunately pushed into voting for Trump and a similar thing has happened with Bolsonaro in Brazil. I don’t see how your use of despicable is justified, these are simply facts I am stating.. you may be transfixed by the cult of personality in electoral politics but many are issue based voters or vote based on a common ideology which in polarized democracies unfortunately leads to many centrists being left with no choice other than to side with figures like Trump or Hilary, for example.

By the way I am no right wing if anything I am left of centre, your name calling is so typical though and just proves exactly what I said to begin with.
 
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Datzlo said:
Well that's the funny thing about politics, though. It's always a case of choosing primary concerns over secondary ones, and I think this is what a lot of the Left forget a lot of the time.

In a perfect world, we would all have the luxury of sitting around and attempting to solve any and all inequities which affect society, and argue our moral case as the chief (if not only) valid concern. The problem is that there are many other issues which are usually a little more pressing. As much as you and I (and probably most people here) agree that trans folks are people and deserve the same respect as anyone else, they're also a very tiny percentage of society (~0.4% of people last I checked), which means that if the electorate in any given country has to choose between expanding trans roles in film or mandating pronouns vs solving massive economic depression and inequality, most likely they are going to prioritize whatever is most pressing to THEM.

Woke folks typically treat these niche concerns as grave, overriding threats to society, whereas the bulk of society has no idea what they're even talking about, or couldn't care less when their family members are destitute. And that's apart from the people who just outright disagree for various reasons, in this case likely religious, and are still entitled to their voice even if the consensus here in the secular West is different.

I think the reason the backlash becomes so severe is due to the intense moralizing that seems to always come along with online discussion of these priorities. I think the point being made is that people are tired of being called various forms of bigot due to their political choices or affiliation.
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But this particular issue isn't discussing micro points like how many trans people should be involved in cinema, or the tiresome pronoun debate. It's whether they have the right to exist without their existence being mocked. It's the same with Bolsonaro's views on homophobia, we're not talking the boring twitter nonsense where non-issues are given far more meaning than they actually hold, we're talking about a man who is pretty out and proud homophobic. I don't really give a shit if he or others understand the intricacies of gender, I do care when they decide to mock other people's sexuality, because that's a pretty major issue.

Agreed, if we're talking about most of the discourse on twitter, which I avoid because it's a tremendously shit echo-chamber with a lot of people patting each other on the back because they stuck pronouns in their bio (Which I have no issue with .. but it's all very self congratulatory) and blacked out their profile pic during tragedies. It's dull.

I think it depends whether your political choices/affiliations are tied to bigoted ideals. Judging people's moral fibre based on their political views is pretty sound, if you don't think poor people should have a basic level of dignity afforded to them for example, I'm gonna judge you. And if you vote for a guy who thinks people in the LGBT community are a figure of fun and/or disgust, likewise I'm gonna judge you for it. Not even necessarily deliberately, just subconsciously once I know that I will have made assessments.

(Note: this doesn't apply broadly to society. With Bolsonaro for example if you're someone living in abject poverty who has suffered from a poor education and has been sucked in, I don't blame you. But if you're someone from an educated, wealthy background and made the same choice I may do. Context matters a lot.)
 
WindyCOYS WindyCOYS can no longer be searched for on the forum. Although appears to have a valid account still, very odd.

Also no sign of him on Twitter since this blew up. I hope he is OK.

Admin Admin please confirm he is in quiet contemplation rather than self flagellation. We are, after all, the board that cares about men's mental health.

Thanks,

CB (man, mentor, mental health advocate)
 
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