Will player power sink Fonseca?

[To Dare Is To Do.]

Most Spurs fans, like me, are underwhelmed at the imminent appointment of Fonseca after the excitement of Conte and Poch links.
Regardless, I hope he succeeds. He is almost an anti-Jose appointment; Fonseca has a mixed record but is known for attacking football which is good to watch.

An attacking style of play based on possession football may actually suit our players (unlike Jose style). We have many talented players who are great on the ball but as a team can be lazy and lethargic off the ball.

My worry is that Fonseca will be undermined by the players because he isn't a marquee appointment. Levy has no reason to be loyal to him, so poor results would lead to him getting the sack quickly. Fans would focus the blame mainly on Fonseca, rather than the squad, as they already don't believe in him.
This means he has almost no leverage with our players. If Fonseca wanted to implement a new strategy requiring the players to work much harder, would they even bother?

Lloris after our Europa exit openly implied that there were many players who didn't give a shit. Hopefully we can get rid of all the bad apples this summer. But our highest paid player, Ndombele, is unlikely to be sold; and Ryan Mason hinted that he didn't put effort into training.

So now, let's back the manager and focus anger on players who don't give their 100%.

 

[Coys1955]

I don’t think many of our players can claim to be marquee signings either tbh.

 

[FightingIllini]

By all accounts one of Fonseca’s strengths is getting the dressing room united and on his side.

Two very different people who we all feel very differently about, but Poch and Jose are both quite difficult people to work with. Fonseca could be more of a breath of fresh air than we realize, especially if we successfully bin off some of the malcontents.

Fonseca’s problem is going to be how the results mesh with the expectations of supporters and the board. The toxicity is likelier to come from without than within.

A big Harry Kane mess could change that, but I don’t forsee that from Harry.

 

[Igula]

I think he is being brought in specifically to avoid this. He doesn't have the background or reputation of a guy that challenges his players or makes things tough on them, if anything it seems he may be too much of a players coach. His training methods don't seem to be overly taxing either.

There are also reports that one of his "positives" is that he is willing to work with what he gets so he is unlikely to be complaining about needing better players or sitting guys out who he deems aren't good enough.

While he may get criticism because the results aren't going to be good, I think the expectations with him are so low that might help him out. I don't think many are thinking that we will be getting top 4 like we did with Poch and then Jose so if he can fluke us into a 6th place finish while fans won't be happy they will be a lot of shrugs and people saying what do you expect with Fonseca.

There is also more and more anger at Levy so he will take some of the anger off of him. I have seen a lot of comments about it not being Fonseca's fault he was hired, Levy should have hired someone better. So the blame is already on Levy as it is.

 

[Tomo]

Lots of that depends on whether Levy gives the new DoF actual power to do his job. If so troublesome players can be sold quickly. Last time we did that was when Poch first arrived. May need to happen again.

It’s embarrassing this club seems to develop random cliques of players, we know about Abe and Kaboul and it has been rumoured in the current set-up. That comes from the top, players should not have the power, the manager should be able to move on those that don’t want to improve and help this club.

 

[Skooch]

Lots of that depends on whether Levy gives the new DoF actual power to do his job. If so troublesome players can be sold quickly. Last time we did that was when Poch first arrived. May need to happen again.

It’s embarrassing this club seems to develop random cliques of players, we know about Abe and Kaboul and it has been rumoured in the current set-up. That comes from the top, players should not have the power, the manager should be able to move on those that don’t want to improve and help this club.

It also brings on another question. If we have a bad start and by late October find ourselves well down in the lower half of the table, Levy fears missing out on Europe so gets an itchy trigger finger, but the DOF wants his mate to stay in a job. How the fuck will that play out?

 

[To Dare Is To Do.]

Fair responses from everyone above

Fonseca could be more of a breath of fresh air than we realize, especially if we successfully bin off some of the malcontents.

He doesn't have the background or reputation of a guy that challenges his players or makes things tough on them, if anything it seems he may be too much of a players coach. His training methods don't seem to be overly taxing either.

My concern isn't that Fonseca himself will alienate the players and row with them .
The issue is his possession based style of play is radically different from Mourinho's, so it may take some time for the players to transition.

And in this transition period, there is likely to be some mediocre results. What if the players then assume that Fonseca, who the fans don't rate and Levy has no loyalty to, is likely to be sacked soon anyway.
If so, why should they bother working hard on trying to implement this new style of play? From what Lloris said many of these players don't have a good attitude.

 

[cretinousgoat]

I think he is being brought in specifically to avoid this. He doesn't have the background or reputation of a guy that challenges his players or makes things tough on them, if anything it seems he may be too much of a players coach. His training methods don't seem to be overly taxing either.

Not sure where you've got this from. There's quotes from his former players who loved playing under him, that his training (especially pre-season) sessions are very intense.

"Fonseca had a strong relationship with Roma centre-back Gianluca Mancini after a quick bond was formed in their first pre-season when he was on loan from Atalanta.

"]He's made] a very good impression [on me]," Mancini said early in that pre-season. "He’s sure of himself and his ideas.

"He’s very direct and tells you openly if you’re doing well or badly. It’s just the start, but he’s certainly made a good impression on me straight away.

"He talks to us a lot as a squad and individually, which is the way it should be. I must say I couldn't believe how intense training was over the first few days. That’s how you need to train to be in top shape for the start of the league campaign."

 

[postbox]

To be honest I think reputations mean fuck all once the training begins.

They can be as underwhelmed as they like up front, but if he shows real quality when it comes to the work then he will win them round quickly.

 

[Ginolaflair]

Not.
Even.
Appointed.

 

[To Dare Is To Do.]

There's quotes from his former players who loved playing under him, that his training (especially pre-season) sessions are very intense.

This doesn't surprise me given what I've read about his style. And given the players have to adjust from Jose style to Fonseca's, they'll have to work even harder.
I fear some players may not be willing to put the effort in for a manager who has no leverage from the outset.

 

[Nutter-Naylor]

He will be gone by October.

 

[Igula]

My concern isn't that Fonseca himself will alienate the players and row with them .
The issue is his possession based style of play is radically different from Mourinho's, so it may take some time for the players to transition.

And in this transition period, there is likely to be some mediocre results. What if the players then assume that Fonseca, who the fans don't rate and Levy has no loyalty to, is likely to be sacked soon anyway.
If so, why should they bother working hard on trying to implement this new style of play? From what Lloris said many of these players don't have a good attitude.

As much as I don't like the players I wonder how much of the "bad attitudes" were situational versus flat out bad guys. Now you create a scenario where those bad situations could pop up again but hopefully we will move out some of the guys who have those feelings that can develop into bad attitudes.

Without being behind the scenes to know what exactly went on it seems like many of the guys rumoured to have bad attitudes- Sissoko, Aurier, Winks, Ndombele, Alli, Toby, I might have missed others and I don't think all reasons for them being called out were the same- came from guys who a. had been at the club for a long time (outside of Ndombele) and b. had seen their roles reduced. I think most of those guys will be shipped out.

This ultimately does go back to our main problem which is squad turnover, it is not just needed to bring in more talent and upgrade players that aren't good enough but it helps with complacency and guys

My two concerns going into next season in this regard would be Kane and Ndombele.

If we keep Kane and he wants out, I could see that having a bad effect on the players. I don't think he will ever quit or not try, but I think you can tell a guy who is going through the motions, even if that still is 100% effort. If guys start seeing Kane unsettled it certainly makes it easier for them to be unsettled.

With Ndombele I could see it going either way, he seemed close to Aurier and Sissoko so he could out that they aren't there anymore or improve because he doesn't get sucked into their grumbling. It also should be a better fit for him compared to Poch's grueling training and Jose's negative tactics, so hopefully that works to boost his attitude.

 

[To Dare Is To Do.]

It’s embarrassing this club seems to develop random cliques of players, we know about Abe and Kaboul and it has been rumoured in the current set-up. That comes from the top, players should not have the power, the manager should be able to move on those that don’t want to improve and help this club.

Exactly.

It's the combination of your point, and the fact Fonseca seems to be quite demanding during training as cretinousgoat proved with his quotes, that worries me.
There's no reason that Fonseca's possession style of play can't be successful given the talent we have in our squad. Suits us a lot better than Jose actually. But they all have to give 100%.

 

[skyfarer]

Yeah, I don't think we know what his training sessions are like. But I would be surprised if they were as lax as Mourinho's, considering how much Fonseca values the press. One of the Roma players, Mancini, has been quoted as saying that he was surprised by the intensity:

“Fonseca has made a very good impression. He believes in himself and his own ideas. He is the type of coach who immediately tells you openly whether you are playing good or bad. This method has made a very good impression for me directly, “said Mancini.

“He talked a lot to us as a team and also as individuals. I must say I did not say how intense the training was during the first few days. But that’s the way to always be in top condition, “he continued.

Re: Fonseca's style (from The Athletic):

“I love teams that are courageous on the ball,” Fonseca elaborates. But Serie A made him recalibrate. “I’ve changed now. Keeping the ball as I love to do is not possible in Italy,” he observes and you can see that in the numbers. Roma currently rank midtable in possession (11th). “I’ve come to understand the importance of transitions. I realise how important it is to win the ball and attack fast because all the teams here are defensively well prepared. Finding space is difficult here. If you don’t attack fast they organise very quickly and you don’t have a transition.”

Roma have, for the most part, done that to very good effect this season. StatsBomb ranks them third in high press and counter-attacking shots per 90 minutes and Inter are the only team producing more in terms of expected goals (xG).

This is a very interesting piece on his tactics by the way: Serie A revolution. In it you can see them practicing gegenpressing:

Paulo Fonseca is one of the most promising representatives of the Portuguese tactical school, that is proving to be the most interesting and productive in Europe in the last years. From it, Fonseca takes some of his most distinctive traits, starting from the cutting-edge training methods applied through the so-called tactical periodization, that tries to edge out the distinctions between physical and tactical exercises by always working with the ball. This tactical periodization, that was brought on the pitch for the first time by Carlos Queiroz (that, curiously, shares the hometown, Nampula, in Mozambique, with Fonseca) was presented to Italian fans for the first time in a video shared by the Giallorossi on social media, where the players can be seen training gegenpressing through an unusual keep-away exercise.
...
So, Fonseca’s style of play, as echoed by the manager himself, is a very brave one and demands for the team to have a mental and physical intensity to make it work. The risk, in a cynical and attentive league like Serie A, is that the manager’s ambition crashes against his opponents’ pragmatism. Probably because of his recognition of this problem, Fonseca vowed great attention in studying the opponents and ability to adapt. Two variables that will be critical to Roma success and his climbing to European football’s Olympus.

If anything, I would say the biggest risk of his style is that our players are not physically fit enough at the moment to implement it. OGS said they needed six months to recover fitness after Mourinho's tenure. So I expect the first season to be shaky regardless (plus his ideas seem kind of complicated - I don't believe he was able to execute them at Roma because of how terrible the injuries were, and he'll want to go for his idealized tactics if our squad is any better), but we should at least see glimmers of a better press and more proactive possession.

 

[Jenny Talia]

Poch was given the green light to move on pretty much the whole first team.
Some of that was supposedly to get rid of dressing room discontent ... Kaboul, Adebayor, Capoue (and Stambouli?).

 

[Igula]

Yeah, I don't think we know what his training sessions are like. But I would be surprised if they were as lax as Mourinho's, considering how much Fonseca values the press. One of the Roma players, Mancini, has been quoted as saying that he was surprised by the intensity:



Re: Fonseca's style (from The Athletic):



This is a very interesting piece on his tactics by the way: Serie A revolution. In it you can see them practicing gegenpressing:



If anything, I would say the biggest risk of his style is that our players are not physically fit enough at the moment to implement it. OGS said they needed six months to recover fitness after Mourinho's tenure. So I expect the first season to be shaky regardless (plus his ideas seem kind of complicated), but we should at least see glimmers of a better press and more proactive possession.

The reports I read was that his training was always done with the ball so while they may be intense I don't think they are the straight running/fitness sessions that players tend to dislike more. Those Mancini quotes seem to be using intense in a positive way not in a "this is too much I don't want to do it way", but it might be tough to tell as Mancini seems to be Fonseca's #1 favorite guy.

But perhaps now they don't like anything that is intense in any way.

 

[To Dare Is To Do.]

If we keep Kane and he wants out, I could see that having a bad effect on the players. I don't think he will ever quit or not try, but I think you can tell a guy who is going through the motions, even if that still is 100% effort. If guys start seeing Kane unsettled it certainly makes it easier for them to be unsettled.

This may offend some, but I totally agree with this point. Kane concerns me too.
I was not happy at all at the timing of his Sky Sports leak. I do have sympathy for his position, but if he isn't sold, he really needs to give 100% and show leadership. I doubt he will be particularly enamoured by the prospect of Fonseca, who isn't a proven elite manager.

With Ndombele I could see it going either way, he seemed close to Aurier and Sissoko so he could out that they aren't there anymore or improve because he doesn't get sucked into their grumbling. It also should be a better fit for him compared to Poch's grueling training and Jose's negative tactics, so hopefully that works to boost his attitude.

Check the quotes from cretinousgoat and skyfarer . It does appear that his training sessions are quite intense. Which I think is a good thing. Ndombele is earning 200K a week, our top earner, so he should be working his fucking socks off.

 

[MouraThat]

I suspect a lot of player will be happy to have him. Knowing they have a 2nd chance etc etc..

Only people like Kane/Lloris/Son the real hungry ones , our best players will be dissapointed like us fans.

 

[Doc]

Always a chance I guess, but I think we'll have a smaller, younger squad that'll hopefully be enthused about playing better football than we did under Mourinho. If we can get our CB and RB recruitment right I think there's every chance we can do well.

Manager search was a farce for a while, but it seems Levy has handed a decent amount of control to Paratici and that's a step in the right direction, hopefully.