Will the MLS or Chinese Super League ever become more than glorified pub leagues?

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Is there a similar grudge with New York City FC being formed on Red Bull New York's turf? To be fair, though, I would rather take a cucumber in a condom right up inside my harris than support a team called Red Bull New York, even if they were there first (albeit under a less sick-inducing team name). Then again, NYCFC are owned by City Football Group, aren't they? Ah. It's fortunate that me living in New York and having to decide who to support isn't a problem that is likely to come up any time soon.
The thing with NYRB is that they are actually a New Jersey team masquerading as a New York team. :llorishowudoin:
 
Are all MLS kits made by Adidas? Imagine if the PL teams have unitary kit deal like that.

I see Carlos Vela is the LAFC star name, wasn’t he another failed Woolwich kid?
 
Is there a similar grudge with New York City FC being formed on Red Bull New York's turf? To be fair, though, I would rather take a cucumber in a condom right up inside my harris than support a team called Red Bull New York, even if they were there first (albeit under a less sick-inducing team name). Then again, NYCFC are owned by City Football Group, aren't they? Ah. It's fortunate that me living in New York and having to decide who to support isn't a problem that is likely to come up any time soon.
It’s exactly the same with NYRB and NYCFC. NYCFC is one of the most cringiest concoctions of all time. The Modern Football thread could be filled with their shit since inception.
 
The MLS and CSL will both at some point get to European League levels, why? TV Money .... when you have a potentially bigger TV audience than the whole of Europe combined it's inevitable that programmers will make it work. Almost the same number of Chinese as the entire population of Europe already watch CSL and EPL today, they just pay a fraction of the cost for the privilege, but that will increase ....

The drawbacks for the US is the owners insistence in trying to run football as they run the NFC or NBA ... pretty much as a private club for the super elite ... football doesn't work like that ... until they realize that football develops from the grassroots upwards, with every player whether from an Ivy League school or the backstreets of middle-of-nowhere having (maybe not an equal) but still a chance of success, where every team can strive to be promoted even if that's just from non-league division 9 to non-league division 8, but far more importantly promotion from the feeder leagues into the MLS ... until they grasp that it will always struggle ....

China's issue is they've moved from 3rd world to 1st world in a heartbeat ... people think there is no history of football in China but that's just wrong ... Football has been huge in China for a long time but the standards are very low and it's had almost no funding, that said football is regarded as the No. 1 spectator sport in China. Large crowds attend live games and large audiences tune in for televised games for both local Chinese teams and famous foreign ones. By one count 3.5 million of China's roughly 600 million soccer fans regularly attend soccer matches at local stadiums ... look at those numbers 600 million fans ... almost ten times the UK population and double that of the USA ... what China needs is success at International level which will gain government support and crucial investment, right now that still seems a long way off, but it will come ....
You don’t need promotion/relegation for strong grassroots sport. American football doesn’t have promotion/relegation, neither does the NBA. Both have immense success at the highest level by players that hail predominately from the lower end of the economic spectrum. The US has to improve the coaching talent at the youth levels, change the focus from winning meaningless youth tournaments to developing actual talent, and properly redress the development programs so they aren’t get-rich schemes for foreign cunts with accents.

I’m not saying promotion/relegation isn’t a wonderful thing. The meritocracy of European football is part of its beauty. But the reality is that it simply will not, can not, ever exist in the US with the legal framework of the MLS. Not a single owner will vote, charitably, to risk seeing their club plummet to the bottom leagues.

I’m not going to get into a debate on whether that’s neccesarily good or bad. It’s one of those subjects as a US fan that most are dead tired of discussing. It doesn’t matter if it’s good or bad, because it’s akin to arguing about whether or not your cat would be a better dog if it weren’t a cat. The energy is better spent on ideas that have a real chance of implementation.
 
You don’t need promotion/relegation for strong grassroots sport. American football doesn’t have promotion/relegation, neither does the NBA. Both have immense success at the highest level by players that hail predominately from the lower end of the economic spectrum. The US has to improve the coaching talent at the youth levels, change the focus from winning meaningless youth tournaments to developing actual talent, and properly redress the development programs so they aren’t get-rich schemes for foreign cunts with accents.

I’m not saying promotion/relegation isn’t a wonderful thing. The meritocracy of European football is part of its beauty. But the reality is that it simply will not, can not, ever exist in the US with the legal framework of the MLS. Not a single owner will vote, charitably, to risk seeing their club plummet to the bottom leagues.

I’m not going to get into a debate on whether that’s neccesarily good or bad. It’s one of those subjects as a US fan that most are dead tired of discussing. It doesn’t matter if it’s good or bad, because it’s akin to arguing about whether or not your cat would be a better dog if it weren’t a cat. The energy is better spent on ideas that have a real chance of implementation.

Take your point Memphis ... 'turkeys voting for christmas' and all that ...

The are major very differences between these sports -

NFL which has slightly less than 2,000 pro-players but almost no other serious players above college age is an established operation with more investment (and fans) at college level than in the pro game ... it's the most popular US sport at 37% but the least played ... that's not changing

Basketball and Baseball have a similar number of pro-players but also have about 30m recreational players each, in terms of popularity they both get about 10% of the US vote

Soccer only has 600 pro players and 15m recreational players ... but ... it's the only sport who's numbers are growing year on year ... it has about 7% of the popular vote ... but as much as 50% with Hispanics and Latinos ...

So soccer is a long way behind the big three ... but that's good means it can still change ... there is abundant evidence that the US could support a multi-league system just as European, South American and Asian countries do ... because that expansion is all still possible the owners who worry about "cat would be a better dog if it weren’t a cat" should just be pushed out ... it's precisely because the MLS tries to be an NFL or NBA copy that it keeps failing ...

Might not happen soon, but my bet is that it will happen ... you can never say never
 
MLS is growing at a very healthy clip for a young league. Competition from other domestic sports leagues, a lack of meaningful continental competition (CONCACAF Champions League will never compare to the UEFA equivalent or even the South American cups), and the established hierarchy of prestige for leagues will keep it from being a global phenomenon (in my lifetime there's no way that MLS, the Chinese league, Mexican league, J league, etc will challenge the big Euro leagues for the top players or global popularity).

Identifying and developing talent is light years ahead of what it was in the late 90s, but that's still the greatest gap between the US and euro/south american leagues in terms of quality of play.

Single entity ownership in MLS, restrictions on the freedom of movement of players into/among/out of teams in the league + salary considerations are a big hurdle but talent development needs to continue rising. Upping the number of intelligent, qualified coaches should be objective number 1. Eliminating the financial burden for players to play competitively should be done. Changing the mentality of youth development should be next...one of the greatest problems is that even the most talented youngsters aren't put into environments that challenge them/teach them to grow into a professional player. As someone that has been fortunate enough to observe the operations of some great euro academies up close, the trial by fire that exists in those structures simply doesn't have an equivalent in the academy setups in America yet. By and large, football is still very much considered a game here and not a lifestyle.
 
Also, with USL developing secondary markets and firmly entrenching itself as a well-supported 2nd division the amount of talent being exposed to meaningful professional minutes should help grow the top-flight league's level of play. Hopefully the third division that is coming in 2019 can also be sustained and finally provide a better-defined hierarchy to the US pyramid than what has existed previously.
 
Take your point Memphis ... 'turkeys voting for christmas' and all that ...

The are major very differences between these sports -

NFL which has slightly less than 2,000 pro-players but almost no other serious players above college age is an established operation with more investment (and fans) at college level than in the pro game ... it's the most popular US sport at 37% but the least played ... that's not changing

Basketball and Baseball have a similar number of pro-players but also have about 30m recreational players each, in terms of popularity they both get about 10% of the US vote

Soccer only has 600 pro players and 15m recreational players ... but ... it's the only sport who's numbers are growing year on year ... it has about 7% of the popular vote ... but as much as 50% with Hispanics and Latinos ...

So soccer is a long way behind the big three ... but that's good means it can still change ... there is abundant evidence that the US could support a multi-league system just as European, South American and Asian countries do ... because that expansion is all still possible the owners who worry about "cat would be a better dog if it weren’t a cat" should just be pushed out ... it's precisely because the MLS tries to be an NFL or NBA copy that it keeps failing ...

Might not happen soon, but my bet is that it will happen ... you can never say never
I can guarantee you that the US will never have promotion/relegation. No owner will vote to risk his investment like that, just so that fans can say they have the same system as the Europeans. It’s simply a non-starter. In fact, if you offered the owner in the PL, La Liga, Serie A, etc. the chance today to close the league and eliminate relegation I guarantee you the vote to do so would be unanimous.

Not only will the US never have pro/rel - Europe won’t have it too much longer, unfortunately. It’s a relic of a bygone era. Football clubs are serious commercial entities these days, and it’s a big risk. Eliminating that risk will be a large part of the reason an eventual euro-league forms.

Will that absolutely fucking suck? Yes. But your head is in the sand if you think United/Madrid/Barca/Bayern will be slumming with the likes of the Burnleys of the world in another 25 years.
 
Aren't most American professional footballers from well off families? Isn't that a bigger issue?

I'm not 100% sure so hopefully the American posters can word it better but aren't most professionals plucked from universities etc which are of course from the more well of families. They don't exactly go out scouting the poorer kids on the street type players in which most of the best players of all time were.

It doesn’t have to with scouting poorer kids; it’s the fact that not a lot of poor kids play soccer. Kids don’t grow up idolizing soccer players because it’s not a popular sport on tv here.

The best athletes in the country play football or basketball. Soccer, although not to the degree of lacrosse or hockey, is still mostly a white sport. If 50% more black kids chose to play soccer instead of American football, the USA would challenge for the World Cup.
 
MLS is growing at a very healthy clip for a young league. Competition from other domestic sports leagues, a lack of meaningful continental competition (CONCACAF Champions League will never compare to the UEFA equivalent or even the South American cups), and the established hierarchy of prestige for leagues will keep it from being a global phenomenon (in my lifetime there's no way that MLS, the Chinese league, Mexican league, J league, etc will challenge the big Euro leagues for the top players or global popularity).

Identifying and developing talent is light years ahead of what it was in the late 90s, but that's still the greatest gap between the US and euro/south american leagues in terms of quality of play.

Single entity ownership in MLS, restrictions on the freedom of movement of players into/among/out of teams in the league + salary considerations are a big hurdle but talent development needs to continue rising. Upping the number of intelligent, qualified coaches should be objective number 1. Eliminating the financial burden for players to play competitively should be done. Changing the mentality of youth development should be next...one of the greatest problems is that even the most talented youngsters aren't put into environments that challenge them/teach them to grow into a professional player. As someone that has been fortunate enough to observe the operations of some great euro academies up close, the trial by fire that exists in those structures simply doesn't have an equivalent in the academy setups in America yet. By and large, football is still very much considered a game here and not a lifestyle.
The biggest issue with US player development is the lack of football on the playground. Football’s youth setup is almost a mirror image of baseball, and MLB gets more and more latin/Asian each year. Black players are basically going extinct in the MLB, to the point that the league is devoting serious money trying to promote the sport in the inner cities because it’s starting to feel a bit pre-Robinson. Football, likewise, just feels super white-washed and suburban.

And that’s a cultural issue that has to be addressed. You’ve got to figure out a way to get kids kicking a ball in the park dreaming of being Ronaldo, rather than dribbling it and dreaming of being LeBron.
 
I heard this right when we got knocked out of World Cup a qualification, but some pundit said the MLS is making Central/South American players better and not Americans. I found that spot on. If you look at the best players in the league, mostly all of them come from other countries.
Build that wall!! #MAGA
 
I heard this right when we got knocked out of World Cup a qualification, but some pundit said the MLS is making Central/South American players better and not Americans. I found that spot on. If you look at the best players in the league, mostly all of them come from other countries.
It makes sense. A lot of those players from central and South America that are coming in are starting from a better experiential base in terms of knowledge and skills, but have only been held back mostly by the lack of infrastructure in those countries and their leagues. The MLS gives them a much better platform to hone their craft. While US players are still starting at a disadvantage and still losing lots of talent to the college game.

In reality, the median wage is barely $100k still. To the average player in the US that’s a decent middle-class wage, but not the sort of money to make up for devoting the prime years of ones development to. A college scholarship still provides better value for a player than a job as a squad player in the MLS.
 
I can guarantee you that the US will never have promotion/relegation. No owner will vote to risk his investment like that, just so that fans can say they have the same system as the Europeans. It’s simply a non-starter. In fact, if you offered the owner in the PL, La Liga, Serie A, etc. the chance today to close the league and eliminate relegation I guarantee you the vote to do so would be unanimous.

Not only will the US never have pro/rel - Europe won’t have it too much longer, unfortunately. It’s a relic of a bygone era. Football clubs are serious commercial entities these days, and it’s a big risk. Eliminating that risk will be a large part of the reason an eventual euro-league forms.

Will that absolutely fucking suck? Yes. But your head is in the sand if you think United/Madrid/Barca/Bayern will be slumming with the likes of the Burnleys of the world in another 25 years.

Sadly I make you right ... would like to believe the good of the game will prevail ... but as you say it won't
 
Sadly I make you right ... would like to believe the good of the game will prevail ... but as you say it won't
Sadly football has been bought and sold already. We’re just living in the days of intermission while the monies men who own it decide the best thing to do with it.

FWIW I think that’s why ENIC are so desperately laying the foundations of a world class club. They knew with the century old 36k WHL and old training facilities we’d absolutely be left out.
 

Juicy Sushi

Evil Numbers Enthusiast
MLS is growing at a very healthy clip for a young league. Competition from other domestic sports leagues, a lack of meaningful continental competition (CONCACAF Champions League will never compare to the UEFA equivalent or even the South American cups), and the established hierarchy of prestige for leagues will keep it from being a global phenomenon (in my lifetime there's no way that MLS, the Chinese league, Mexican league, J league, etc will challenge the big Euro leagues for the top players or global popularity).

Identifying and developing talent is light years ahead of what it was in the late 90s, but that's still the greatest gap between the US and euro/south american leagues in terms of quality of play.

Single entity ownership in MLS, restrictions on the freedom of movement of players into/among/out of teams in the league + salary considerations are a big hurdle but talent development needs to continue rising. Upping the number of intelligent, qualified coaches should be objective number 1. Eliminating the financial burden for players to play competitively should be done. Changing the mentality of youth development should be next...one of the greatest problems is that even the most talented youngsters aren't put into environments that challenge them/teach them to grow into a professional player. As someone that has been fortunate enough to observe the operations of some great euro academies up close, the trial by fire that exists in those structures simply doesn't have an equivalent in the academy setups in America yet. By and large, football is still very much considered a game here and not a lifestyle.
I think one of the challenges is the disparities within MLS between the clubs. On the one hand, you have a cluster of 6-7 teams with large budgets, and a serious intent to win. And you have 13 or so other teams which either haven't got the resources, or the intent at board level, or both.

Until you have more intent from the smaller teams, I don't think MLS can make the next jump and get ride of some of the current impediments (the DP rule and very tight salary cap).

But MLS is emphatically growing, and it's going to be really interesting to see where it is at in 10 years. I think it will probably not be on Europe's level, but it will be a league with a very solid level of support and international respect.

China, I don't know. It seems like there is very little support for the Chinese League, within China. If that doesn't change, I can't see the CSL going anywhere.
 
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