Will the MLS or Chinese Super League ever become more than glorified pub leagues?

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I often watch Wealdstone, in fact I am a life member and I can assure you that there are a great many hardcore fans that look forward to them being in the PL.
It's fair enough to have the dreams, but you have to be realistic enough to admit that that's what they are.

:pochfacepalm:
 
The problems that will always impact the MSL versus most other US sports is that it can't be controlled through salary caps, regulation, or by the US media ....

Football is a world sport, no one country (or even national organisation) can set all the rules ... feck in 50 years they still can't all agree on the standard pitch size ...

The reason there are no salary caps, that there are promotion and relegation, that there are independent national leagues is that players are not 'owned' by clubs the same way they are in the NFL or NBA, they are fully covered by standard employment legislation and freedom of movement ...

If the EPL places a hard salary cap on it's clubs all the best players would immediately tear up their contracts and feck off to a country that pays more, nothing the owners could do ... this scares the shite out of the US owners ... not being able to control your players as personal property (I will avoid the 's' word) means you're taking a huge risk ... buy an NFL or NBA franchise and you are guaranteed to make money ... that just doesn't apply to MLS ...

The USA is the only country in the crazy world of NFL / NBA ... but in Football (soccer) it's just a small player ... if it wants to compete, and it does, it has no choice but to follow what the rest of the football world does ... you can't have a 'single tier' league and hope to be competitive ... there's a reason no other country does this ... football needs grass roots, it needs a National Team, those successes are vital, feck England still harp on about 1966 because that victory took English football to a whole new level ... the USA needs more 'grass roots' football, it needs more International success, they have the players they just need a break ...

That all sounds a bit negative but it really isn't, previous 'failed' attempts with single tier soccer attempting to mimic other US sports have always gone a bit wrong, not failed but not quite taken off ... now that there are clear signs of 'league' structures growing beneath the MLS things will improve ... that is the future and it will happen ...
Just nitpicking but I think a decent percentage of the NBA's players come from outside the US/Canada these days. Obviously we've still got the dominant league, but it's a bit more like hockey where there are a lot of stars from other countries. Same goes for MLB. So I don't think the franchise structure/lack of relegation is the issue, it's a lack of interest. If MLS could even attract the same attention as the NHL, the smallest of the big four leagues, it would be massive relative to all the foreign soccer leagues except the top 4 or 5 european leagues.

Edit: The American and Canadian NTs would probably still suck though
 
In what way, it's still made up of geriatric players on a last hoorah, and second rate players. How come all of the big American investors come straight to Europe to Hoover up clubs, and don't invest in local teams? If they did then they could provide salaries that encourage Americans to look at football as a viable sporting alternative to the domestic games.
In some ways I hope the game never takes off there, if it does the corporation's will shit on the game with advertising - turning it into 4 quarters so the US can have their ad breaks, which tv companies believe you can't survive without.
 
In what way, it's still made up of geriatric players on a last hoorah, and second rate players. How come all of the big American investors come straight to Europe to Hoover up clubs, and don't invest in local teams? If they did then they could provide salaries that encourage Americans to look at football as a viable sporting alternative to the domestic games.
In some ways I hope the game never takes off there, if it does the corporation's will shit on the game with advertising - turning it into 4 quarters so the US can have their ad breaks, which tv companies believe you can't survive without.
Says a supporter of a #neverred club with a giant fuck off red AIA on the shirt. Let's pause a moment for a hypocrisy check before pre-blaming the US for the commercialisation of football, yeah?

:pocheyes:

Furthermore, the "big" american investors aren't involved with any sports outside the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The Americans getting involved in European football now are, for the most part, second-rate guys who are late to the party and missed the value explosion. They're basically house flippers who get into lower level clubs hoping a few additions, a bit of facilities work here and there, will put the club in the upper echelons and allow them to cash out.

The reason they're interested in the euro clubs is plain to see. They're looking to flip an asset in the short term for a windfall. MLS clubs are massive loss leaders, and anyone getting involved in the league is playing the long game - that for $200M today you can buy something that will have an NFL-esque value ($2-3 Billion in today's dollars) 20 years from now.

The league is nothing like the NASL. The NASL went bankrupt for doing precisely what you're saying the MLS should do - overspend on players hoping they will attract the attention. We've tried putting the cart in front of the horse before...didn't really work out too well.

I love hkw MLS' problems always come back to the players being retirees and the lack of promotion/relegation. The reason the MLS underperforms the US' population is simply that few people in the US give a fuck. Most US sports fans still see the sport as something for pre-schoolers. No amount of pro/rel or appropriately aged players will fix that bias...its going to take another generation or 2 for the sport to properly bed in.

For an easy comparison, look how long it's taken for basketball to grow roots in Europe. Those leagues are mostly filled with complete shite and a mix of NBA has-been to never-weres. But it's getting better, and the pipeline of talent is less an occasional drop and now almost a steady leak of 1-2 players a year coming. Long way to go yet, though.

TL;DR - it's hard to transplant a sport to a foreign nation that already has a strong and established sporting culture.
 
Says a supporter of a #neverred club with a giant fuck off red AIA on the shirt. Let's pause a moment for a hypocrisy check before pre-blaming the US for the commercialisation of football, yeah?

:pocheyes:

Furthermore, the "big" american investors aren't involved with any sports outside the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The Americans getting involved in European football now are, for the most part, second-rate guys who are late to the party and missed the value explosion. They're basically house flippers who get into lower level clubs hoping a few additions, a bit of facilities work here and there, will put the club in the upper echelons and allow them to cash out.

The reason they're interested in the euro clubs is plain to see. They're looking to flip an asset in the short term for a windfall. MLS clubs are massive loss leaders, and anyone getting involved in the league is playing the long game - that for $200M today you can buy something that will have an NFL-esque value ($2-3 Billion in today's dollars) 20 years from now.

The league is nothing like the NASL. The NASL went bankrupt for doing precisely what you're saying the MLS should do - overspend on players hoping they will attract the attention. We've tried putting the cart in front of the horse before...didn't really work out too well.

I love hkw MLS' problems always come back to the players being retirees and the lack of promotion/relegation. The reason the MLS underperforms the US' population is simply that few people in the US give a fuck. Most US sports fans still see the sport as something for pre-schoolers. No amount of pro/rel or appropriately aged players will fix that bias...its going to take another generation or 2 for the sport to properly bed in.

For an easy comparison, look how long it's taken for basketball to grow roots in Europe. Those leagues are mostly filled with complete shite and a mix of NBA has-been to never-weres. But it's getting better, and the pipeline of talent is less an occasional drop and now almost a steady leak of 1-2 players a year coming. Long way to go yet, though.

TL;DR - it's hard to transplant a sport to a foreign nation that already has a strong and established sporting culture.
America has a strong established sporting culture? Really, when did that happen?
I thought you just played rounders, netball and robocop rugby for dummies.

Not sure why you equate to Spurs putting a company logo on the shirts, with your sports which actually come to a halt in game playing time, so the TV companies can shovel more car insurance and haemmorhoid cream adverts into you. But if you think that defeats my point then all well and good. Because that is my concern over corporate America becoming involved in football.
You then went on to say a lot of things on my behalf, that I didn't actually say, but if its only small time investors from the US who are investing in the single biggest global sport, then maybe your big time investors aren't as smart as they think they are. But Americans are famous for thinking that the world begins and ends in the US, so it's maybe not surprising that you would have this viewpoint.

There are basketball leagues in Europe? Who actually gives a shit? I'd rather watch netball than a load of giants playing a sport that is populated by huge ugly blokes. Most netball teams are full of fit women, who are much better to watch getting hot and sweaty.

I'm well aware of the establishment of the sports that are played in the US, and the national team will always suffer from the lack of meaningful numbers of participants, until the european and Central American influence on the sport and regional leagues starts to pay dividends. It certainly wont improve whilst whatever money that's available for the sport is spent outside of your country.
 
America has a strong established sporting culture? Really, when did that happen?
I thought you just played rounders, netball and robocop rugby for dummies.

Not sure why you equate to Spurs putting a company logo on the shirts, with your sports which actually come to a halt in game playing time, so the TV companies can shovel more car insurance and haemmorhoid cream adverts into you. But if you think that defeats my point then all well and good. Because that is my concern over corporate America becoming involved in football.
You then went on to say a lot of things on my behalf, that I didn't actually say, but if its only small time investors from the US who are investing in the single biggest global sport, then maybe your big time investors aren't as smart as they think they are. But Americans are famous for thinking that the world begins and ends in the US, so it's maybe not surprising that you would have this viewpoint.

There are basketball leagues in Europe? Who actually gives a shit? I'd rather watch netball than a load of giants playing a sport that is populated by huge ugly blokes. Most netball teams are full of fit women, who are much better to watch getting hot and sweaty.

I'm well aware of the establishment of the sports that are played in the US, and the national team will always suffer from the lack of meaningful numbers of participants, until the european and Central American influence on the sport and regional leagues starts to pay dividends. It certainly wont improve whilst whatever money that's available for the sport is spent outside of your country.
You seem to grapple with trying to figure out why the US doesn't fall in love with football, then express the same sort of xenophobic bias that holds football back in this country whilst belittling sports that are/were not part of the culture you were raised and live in.

Seriously, fella, if you want to understand why football isnt bigger in the US all you have to do is look in the mirror. Its because the US is full of people like you that view anything foreign as inferior.

As far as the quarters, TV, and commercialisation - american football, basketball, and baseball were all divided into their sequence of play long before the radio was invented, much less a television. The corporations have absolutely taken advantage of the way play is divided but they didn't create them. You're making false generalizations to try and make a point, but all you're doing is detracting from the meaning of your statement.

In short, you're being obtuse. You aren't interested in discussing the subject at hand. You simply want to proselytize on why Americans are stupid. It's quite annoying.

:pochbye:
 
You seem to grapple with trying to figure out why the US doesn't fall in love with football, then express the same sort of xenophobic bias that holds football back in this country whilst belittling sports that are/were not part of the culture you were raised and live in.

Seriously, fella, if you want to understand why football isnt bigger in the US all you have to do is look in the mirror. Its because the US is full of people like you that view anything foreign as inferior.

As far as the quarters, TV, and commercialisation - american football, basketball, and baseball were all divided into their sequence of play long before the radio was invented, much less a television. The corporations have absolutely taken advantage of the way play is divided but they didn't create them. You're making false generalizations to try and make a point, but all you're doing is detracting from the meaning of your statement.

In short, you're being obtuse. You aren't interested in discussing the subject at hand. You simply want to proselytize on why Americans are stupid. It's quite annoying.

:pochbye:
I'm not trying to grapple with anything, but taking the piss out of someone as full of themselves as you (clearly are) was too good an opportunity to miss, so belittling your core sports is too good an opportunity to pass up.
I have been to professional baseball and football (robocop rugby) games in the US, and all I can say is that you have an awful lot of quarters to have ad breaks in. Apparently an american football game lasts 3 hours and 12 minutes on average, and consists of around 11 minutes when the ball is actually in play, and 20 advert breaks in the TV transmission. (An average NFL game: more than 100 commercials and just 11 minutes of play), I can't be arsed to look up similar stuff in baseball, but the one game I went to which was one of the world series games that year was so boring, I neither knew or cared who won, and left after 5 innings and 200 ad breaks.

So far from being obtuse or making false accusations, I am merely describing how the sport has been overtaken by the advertising machine as a vessel for their products, and diluted whatever visceral thrills exist from watching a truly engaging sporting contest. I have no beef about America or Americans, nor an axe to grind - but I know what I like, and an advert fest with sport breaks isn't one of them. I don't think the sports are inferior because they are not British, I think they are inferior because they are paralysingly boring, more so for the commercial bastardisation they have descended into.

Two of my favourite sports are decidedly non British in origin, and whilst football is, it was taken over by the rest of the world a long time ago and is now a truly global sport. Americas 2 major sports are largely ignored by the rest of the world, why is that, do you think? 5 of the 10 most played sports in the world are British and I only care about one of them, which kind of pisses on your assessment of me being of the same mindset as your fellow countrymen.

I think you might actually need to take a long hard look in the mirror, because your assessment of me is way off beam, you were getting your leg pulled and you have taken it all to heart, and come out swinging. I'm sure your wonderful president would be proud of you.
 
I'm not trying to grapple with anything, but taking the piss out of someone as full of themselves as you (clearly are) was too good an opportunity to miss, so belittling your core sports is too good an opportunity to pass up.
I have been to professional baseball and football (robocop rugby) games in the US, and all I can say is that you have an awful lot of quarters to have ad breaks in. Apparently an american football game lasts 3 hours and 12 minutes on average, and consists of around 11 minutes when the ball is actually in play, and 20 advert breaks in the TV transmission. (An average NFL game: more than 100 commercials and just 11 minutes of play), I can't be arsed to look up similar stuff in baseball, but the one game I went to which was one of the world series games that year was so boring, I neither knew or cared who won, and left after 5 innings and 200 ad breaks.

So far from being obtuse or making false accusations, I am merely describing how the sport has been overtaken by the advertising machine as a vessel for their products, and diluted whatever visceral thrills exist from watching a truly engaging sporting contest. I have no beef about America or Americans, nor an axe to grind - but I know what I like, and an advert fest with sport breaks isn't one of them. I don't think the sports are inferior because they are not British, I think they are inferior because they are paralysingly boring, more so for the commercial bastardisation they have descended into.

Two of my favourite sports are decidedly non British in origin, and whilst football is, it was taken over by the rest of the world a long time ago and is now a truly global sport. Americas 2 major sports are largely ignored by the rest of the world, why is that, do you think? 5 of the 10 most played sports in the world are British and I only care about one of them, which kind of pisses on your assessment of me being of the same mindset as your fellow countrymen.

I think you might actually need to take a long hard look in the mirror, because your assessment of me is way off beam, you were getting your leg pulled and you have taken it all to heart, and come out swinging. I'm sure your wonderful president would be proud of you.
You're still missing the point. In trying to determine why football isn't better supported in the US and how to increase participation and interest one of the major things that doesn't matter in the absolute least is what you think.

Incidentally, I agree that American sports games take too long and dont have enough action, basketball aside. That's why I, obviously, prefer football (though I grew up playing robocop rugby for 15 years, I'm burnt out on it mostly because the game has changed too much and they take too long). But the length of games isnt as much of an issue for a typical American because the culture of spectatorship is vastly different. Often times, UK supporters will complain about KO times for matches because they may make popping off to a match and then getting back to your day difficult. From a US perspective, this is difficult to understand as, in general, our sporting days out aren't just "popping out to a match". They're all day fully encompassing events for many. (Particularly those with the money to afford the obscene ticket prices).

Anyway, I'm really tired of discussing it. I dont really give 2 shits if football is ever popular in the US, or MLS gets their shit together. I love the sport and will continue to follow and support it. But the idea that there's a business model solution to what is a anthropological issue is absurd and I'm just fed up with people preaching on how it's a player issue or league structure issue.

We've got the most successful and lucrative ice hockey league in the world, the one in which all the best talent in the world plays. No one outside of the northeast/midwest cities (and briefly occasionally, somewhere else if the team is good) gives a fuck. You could put Ronaldo, Messi, Kane, Dele, Pogba, Mbappe, Bale, and Modric all in the MLS tomorrow and itd still be a niche sport. Because it's a cultural divide. And the vague, completely ludicrius and unattainable dream that Shittsvilletown Rovers could win their way through 15 tiers and one day win the MLS cup isnt't going to make little Johnny Americunt decide he prefers football over basketball.

I understand that in Europe there's much more localized and insular culture, local clubs and the like, but Americans in general are used to driving 3 1/2 hours on a weekend morning to go see "our team" play. It's a more vast land mass with the cultural habits that go along with that. Theres no European solution to an American problem any more than there's an American solution to a European problem.
 
I understand that in Europe there's much more localized and insular culture, local clubs and the like, but Americans in general are used to driving 3 1/2 hours on a weekend morning to go see "our team" play. It's a more vast land mass with the cultural habits that go along with that. Theres no European solution to an American problem any more than there's an American solution to a European problem.
One thing I've come to realise is that the driving 3½ hours to anything is pretty normalis(/z)ed over there. The UK is so much more condensed, and a lot of us are used to having things to hand. Travelling that kind of distance here is a big deal that we don't tend to do that often. When you consider the differences with simple things like that, you start to realise that that's just one of many things that contribute to how much the cultures of the two countries differ, and forcing elements of one country's culture on the other and expecting it to work seamlessly just isn't realistic.
 
Average Attendence for the MLS > Brazil / Argentina / Eredivisie / SPL

They are doing alright building a fan base, would be good if they could work out how to link the tiers for promotion. Their biggest challenge is to sort out the Academy system so its not only middle class who can succeed.
 
Average Attendence for the MLS > Brazil / Argentina / Eredivisie / SPL

They are doing alright building a fan base, would be good if they could work out how to link the tiers for promotion. Their biggest challenge is to sort out the Academy system so its not only middle class who can succeed.
Pro/rel is literally never going to happen. You can mention it and mention it and mention it, but it's never going to happen. The owner of LAFC who just bought his place for hundreds of millions of dollars isn't going to vote to endanger his investment so that the Tampa Bay Rowdies get a fair crack at glory. There's no point in even bringing it up, though that doesn't seem to make a difference to anyone.
 
Pro/rel is literally never going to happen. You can mention it and mention it and mention it, but it's never going to happen. The owner of LAFC who just bought his place for hundreds of millions of dollars isn't going to vote to endanger his investment so that the Tampa Bay Rowdies get a fair crack at glory. There's no point in even bringing it up, though that doesn't seem to make a difference to anyone.
Totally understand why you think promotion and relegation will never happen, at least as we know it.

What are your thoughts on whether they'd ever adapt to the model they used to have at the bottom of the football league, where they had elections? The team who finished bottom would have to stand for re-election to the league, and other teams would apply and stand for election too. Usually the existing league club would be re-elected, but if their infrastructure was shit and there was a non-league team who had all their ducks in a row then sometimes they'd take their place. Could a model like this ever be adopted, in your opinion?
 
Totally understand why you think promotion and relegation will never happen, at least as we know it.

What are your thoughts on whether they'd ever adapt to the model they used to have at the bottom of the football league, where they had elections? The team who finished bottom would have to stand for re-election to the league, and other teams would apply and stand for election too. Usually the existing league club would be re-elected, but if their infrastructure was shit and there was a non-league team who had all their ducks in a row then sometimes they'd take their place. Could a model like this ever be adopted, in your opinion?
No form of pro/rel will ever happen. If England were forming a league today, pro/rel would not be a feature of it. Football is worth too much money today, the TV deals too lucrative, and player expenses too high, for it to make financial sense.

Imagine a burger league where McD's, Burger King, Five Guys, etc. agree that whoever has the worst fiscal year has to close 1/3 of their restaurants. It's an illogical business platform, that survives in football solely out of tradition. And football is clearly a business today.

The reality is that a breakaway, closed system, European super league is 1000X more likely than MLS pro/rel. The first is really only a PR pitch with the right angle from happening.
 
One thing I've come to realise is that the driving 3½ hours to anything is pretty normalis(/z)ed over there. The UK is so much more condensed, and a lot of us are used to having things to hand. Travelling that kind of distance here is a big deal that we don't tend to do that often. When you consider the differences with simple things like that, you start to realise that that's just one of many things that contribute to how much the cultures of the two countries differ, and forcing elements of one country's culture on the other and expecting it to work seamlessly just isn't realistic.
What an open minded and understanding post

Take that shit elsewhere
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No form of pro/rel will ever happen. If England were forming a league today, pro/rel would not be a feature of it. Football is worth too much money today, the TV deals too lucrative, and player expenses too high, for it to make financial sense.

Imagine a burger league where McD's, Burger King, Five Guys, etc. agree that whoever has the worst fiscal year has to close 1/3 of their restaurants. It's an illogical business platform, that survives in football solely out of tradition. And football is clearly a business today.

The reality is that a breakaway, closed system, European super league is 1000X more likely than MLS pro/rel. The first is really only a PR pitch with the right angle from happening.

I am not trying to argue the US should have relegation or promotion you have your own way of doing things but I think you are overselling this, China has relegation and promotion / Japan have relegation and promotion (changed from 2 to 3 in 2009) / Thailand have relegation promotion

- Australia / India do not

All started similar time as the NSL, yes they don't have the huge buy in fee but that's a choice the league has made and without the buy in relegation and promotion would be feasible.

Without Relegation and promotion there is no way the league can expand any further right? - you could do conferences I suppose but that seems odd for football.

I do get confused by the other tiers in the league, if there is no relegation or promotion what makes MLS > NASL > USL and if one grows stronger can it leapfrog the another.
 
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