Not to be nitpicking, but the reverse angle showed Brennan laid it back to Maddison just before the tackle came in. Again, given Brennan’s track record, it’s understandable why you’d have your doubts. If it’s a Maddison, Bissouma, Kulusevski or Odobert we’d assume that they’d have the footwork to do such a thing.
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Player Wilson Odobert
- Thread starter The Fighting Cock
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I never praised Leicester. You are making shit up as you go. I pointed out that this "ultra-competitive-impossible-league" had winner like Leicester which proves that it is not impossible to do things here.
Yes- we talk about team that paid 100+ mil for Felix and 81+ mil for Alvarez... from REVENUE and INCOME smaller than us. You are 100% mixing up shit here. Paying that kind of money with less resources shows decisiveness. Even if in case Felix deal was a failure.
Also your logic is borderline childish regarding difficulty of competition. Real Mardid has been no 1 or nr 2 in Deloitte money league for 19 years out of past 20 years (!). From 2005-2006 to 2019-2020 Barcelona was 2nd or 3rd in the same rank. So in year Atletico won the league, they beat two WORLD biggest sides who had FAR bigger lead ahead of Atleti than any English teams have in front of us.
YES - now Barca situation has changed, but Atleti won their titles in 2013-2014 and 2020-2021 and Copa del Rey 2012-2013 when Barca was still at their height.
Basically they had to beat 2 sides who made 800 million a year with budget of 500 million a year.
On average, 4 clubs might have had bigger revenue, but this might be like 600 vs 450 million a year.
I would argue that beating 2 sides that have 300 million EUR more than you is more difficult task than to beat 4 sides that make 150 million more than you.
So to put in on other terms - if you are international level high jumper, you'd more likely win a competition where there are 4 participants who jump 215cm on constant basis than to competition where two participants consistently jump 230cm.
This was a reflection of our longer track record of ours, OBVIOUSLY.
Why are you reaching for straws when I clearly mentioned the period in my post ?
Maybe I’m just a glass half full kinda chap?!
Yours doesn’t even seem half empty!
You guys have a glass ???
We are talking about different periods. I am talking about the here and now because that's the only time that's relevant to me in terms of the project we are currently building.
Ok, well you technically can. But to understand now (AND our near future too actually), I personally believe that the period that has shaped our current squad is very much relevant.
So, but you do broadly agree that in order for us to be and stay competitive, sometimes selling star players/starters would be an acceptable part of the process?
Cause I've been following recent transfers and few thoughts it has brought up -
- Brighton being mega-active, spending up to 230 mil (!) - they are buying up A LOT of talent (aged 19-24 mostly). And talents are willing to go to them, as they've seen, it could be so helpful to their careers, after they have sold players like Caicedo, Cucurella, White, McAllister, Bissouma to bigger clubs and also to bigger wages. -> HOW IT RELATES TO US -> I actually have a feeling that at some point some players have been hesitant to join us, cause they know Levy ain't gonna let them even to clubs like Real Madrid
- Bayern reaching an agreement with Saudi club for Coman - they are VERY proactive club on the market and they operate damn wisely. Mane did not work out -> Sell on after 1 yr. de Ligt being dissapointment -> find stupidest rich club (ManU) to cut the losses. They also use their pull to profit from players - they were attractive team for players like Gravenberch and Mazaroui. So they signed them and made profit of 20 mil with 1 year for first and 15 mil with 2 years for 2nd. Actually Lewa fits into latter category too - lured him on for free.. and at 33 (!) sold him for 45 mil. HOW IT RELATES TO US -> sell players until they have value so you can use the proceeds for reinvesting + profit is made at the time of purchase/signing .
Okay you never praised them but this is the 2nd time you've made reference to them winning the league to show some sort of sustainable model.
Leicester have never been able to repeat the trick again and they got relegated, it shows that the model isn't sustainable and shows that they were a complete anomaly, a club as small as that winning the league never happened before 2016 and it will never happen again so I don't see what the point of you bringing them up was?
Haha what?
Paying that kind of money shows that they can afford to take high risks because of gap between themselves and 4th, They are virtually guaranteed to qualify for the CL every season mate.
It's only childish if you're a bit simple and don't understand how relatively and competitiveness works, no offence.
They have the 2nd and typically had the 3rd highest wage bill in their league ergo they are able to sustain a challenge to the teams above them easier than us who have the 6th highest wage bill in the Prem, they essentially play in a 3 team league so they need just 2 teams to have an off years whilst we need 5.
Also look at the wage bridge between 3rd and 4th and the rest - Atletico double sevilla for wages paid so the league isn't as competitive as the Premier League.
Prem: Premier League | FBref.com
And compare that to La Liga
That shows you the difference in the competitiveness and how tight the margins are.
You're making a massive false equivalence.
Okay but in reference to us, we have to better 5 clubs to win, 2 of them have been financed by Sugar daddies with unlimited funds and backed by a state, another who have been historically rich and blow everyone's revenue out the water and now another club who have been washed with unlimited cash and backed by an entire state so how do we have the advantage over Atletico?
Despite all this it's a bit weird that we're talking about Atletico having a similar model to Dortmund and Leipzig and Atalanta, can you tell me how exactly?
I am not averse to selling players who want to leave. I don't want us to be like Brighton where the model is built around selling players, though. Everyone wetting themselves over their spending this summer is conveniently forgetting that almost all the money they are spending was Chelsea's money anyway after selling Potter, Caicedo, Cucurella and fuck knows who else. Brighton have found a range between mid table and Europa League places in the same way we have found a range between 8/9th and 3/4th.
What we do need to take from them is succession planning and having options either already in your squad or lined up elsewhere. They have lost De Zerbia and already have a young coach who has slotted straight into the group they had and doesn't seem to object to the transfer policy either.
What I think we are aiming for is Dortmund and Leipzig but with more financial muscle. If it works is another thing and we will need our academy to really produce for it to pay off.
Okay you never praised them but this is the 2nd time you've made reference to them winning the league to show some sort of sustainable model.
Leicester have never been able to repeat the trick again and they got relegated, it shows that the model isn't sustainable and shows that they were a complete anomaly, a club as small as that winning the league never happened before 2016 and it will never happen again so I don't see what the point of you bringing them up was?
Haha what?
Paying that kind of money shows that they can afford to take high risks because of gap between themselves and 4th, They are virtually guaranteed to qualify for the CL every season mate.
It's only childish if you're a bit simple and don't understand how relatively and competitiveness works, no offence.
They have the 2nd and typically had the 3rd highest wage bill in their league ergo they are able to sustain a challenge to the teams above them easier than us who have the 6th highest wage bill in the Prem, they essentially play in a 3 team league so they need just 2 teams to have an off years whilst we need 5.
Also look at the wage bridge between 3rd and 4th and the rest - Atletico double sevilla for wages paid so the league isn't as competitive as the Premier League.
Prem: Premier League | FBref.com
And compare that to La Liga
That shows you the difference in the competitiveness and how tight the margins are.
You're making a massive false equivalence.
Okay but in reference to us, we have to better 5 clubs to win, 2 of them have been financed by Sugar daddies with unlimited funds and backed by a state, another who have been historically rich and blow everyone's revenue out the water and now another club who have been washed with unlimited cash and backed by an entire state so how do we have the advantage over Atletico?
Despite all this it's a bit weird that we're talking about Atletico having a similar model to Dortmund and Leipzig and Atalanta, can you tell me how exactly?
Ohmy ohmy...
I try to make it quick -
1) I highlight Leicester win NOT to copy their model ffs. It is clear and obvious point that over past 20 years EPL hasn't been "mission impossible" if such midget of the club won it. While in Spain for past 20 years ONLY Real, Barca and Atleti have won titles.
2) Bullshit about affording or not affording risks. We could have afforded such players too. Zero difference between signing 1 player for 100 mil or signing Ndombelly and Lo Celso in the same window for combined 100+ mil. When they flopped with one big deal (Felix) we lost as much on the pair too..
3) It is not "needing 2 teams to have an off year whilst we need 5". It is different if those 5 are slightly ahead of you or those 2 are SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of you. I am talking about past 20 years and during that time Barca and Real have been in different class compared to Atleti and others while in EPL it has been 6 teams in much closer competition. We have been during years ahead of likes of Chelsea and Woolwich in terms of income. Atleti has NEVER not even ONCE have been even close to Real nor Barca.
And about other teams below - I do not give a damn about who is better wage bill - Villareal or West Ham, because to win a title you have to beat the biggest fishes.
The big difference is that you're getting 1 player less. Teams that spend 100m+ on a single player usually don't have a lot of holes, so they can spunk their entire budget on 1-2 players, we're not usually in that position.
Frying tonight! You old git.I'm sorry but every time I see his name I think of Oddbod in "Carry on Screaming"
Do you mind if I smoke?
Brother can we please please put down these delusional pills.
THE point is that it's virtually impossible to repeat what Leicester did so it has 0 relevance to this argument, in fact using them is just contradicting your own argument because as soon as they sold Mahrez and Kante they plateaued.
Yeah apart from the fact that you're counting 2 players who cost around £100m compared to one player who cost around £120m, apart from that you're spot on lol
Furthermore do you think we could afford to lose around £80m on felix after 4/5 years just like that? No chance. Atletico can afford to take those risks because they have guaranteed CL football every season, that's not a guarantee for us.
Firstly let's get this straight wages are the biggest indicator of success/winning not revenue. Revenue means fuck all if you're not paying for the best players to come to the club and we aren't whilst you can always attract the best players if you pay high so you need to give a damn.
Identifying the Verticals and Metrics That Contribute to Sustained Success in High Performance Sport
For an organization to achieve long term & sustainable development, it must consider economic, environmental, cultural & social factors
www.beautifulgamegroup.com
Secondly it doesn't matter how significant the gap is between Real/Barca and Atletico, you just need them to have an off season or implode which has happened already and does happen hence why Atletico have been able to take advantage.
And you completely ignored the point about competitiveness because the teams below us in the Prem are also pushing for those top 6 spots whilst in La Liga you rarely get that - The odds are stacked against us as it is but when you have teams below us (Villa, Newcastle and West Ham) who are fr closer to us in wages than we are to Woolwich then that puts things into perspective.
The example you should have used is Liverpool, they have probably been the best example of an over performance when they won the league and should have really won it 2 more times as they had on average the 4th highest wage bill over those 4 years, also Klopp and Edwards worked miracles putting the team together and getting the most out of them but they couldn't sustain it anyway so once again it which kinda proves my point and they were a lot closer to City/Utd's wages than we are now.
I'll ask again seeing as you ignored it...why the fuck are we even talking about Atletico? They are far away from the model that was initially proposed in Dortmund/Brighton, they for the most part actually keep their best players and pay far higher wages than those clubs...weird argument.
Brother can we please please put down these delusional pills.
THE point is that it's virtually impossible to repeat what Leicester did so it has 0 relevance to this argument, in fact using them is just contradicting your own argument because as soon as they sold Mahrez and Kante they plateaued.
Yeah apart from the fact that you're counting 2 players who cost around £100m compared to one player who cost around £120m, apart from that you're spot on lol
Furthermore do you think we could afford to lose around £80m on felix after 4/5 years just like that? No chance. Atletico can afford to take those risks because they have guaranteed CL football every season, that's not a guarantee for us.
Firstly let's get this straight wages are the biggest indicator of success/winning not revenue. Revenue means fuck all if you're not paying for the best players to come to the club and we aren't whilst you can always attract the best players if you pay high so you need to give a damn.
Identifying the Verticals and Metrics That Contribute to Sustained Success in High Performance Sport
For an organization to achieve long term & sustainable development, it must consider economic, environmental, cultural & social factors
Secondly it doesn't matter how significant the gap is between Real/Barca and Atletico, you just need them to have an off season or implode which has happened already and does happen hence why Atletico have been able to take advantage.
And you completely ignored the point about competitiveness because the teams below us in the Prem are also pushing for those top 6 spots whilst in La Liga you rarely get that - The odds are stacked against us as it is but when you have teams below us (Villa, Newcastle and West Ham) who are fr closer to us in wages than we are to Woolwich then that puts things into perspective.
The example you should have used is Liverpool, they have probably been the best example of an over performance when they won the league and should have really won it 2 more times as they had on average the 4th highest wage bill over those 4 years, also Klopp and Edwards worked miracles putting the team together and getting the most out of them but they couldn't sustain it anyway so once again it which kinda proves my point and they were a lot closer to City/Utd's wages than we are now.
I'll ask again seeing as you ignored it...why the fuck are we even talking about Atletico? They are far away from the model that was initially proposed in Dortmund/Brighton, they for the most part actually keep their best players and pay far higher wages than those clubs...weird argument.
Ok, we've wandered way off the topic here, I'm gonna end it now.
You say that I cotradict my point... while saying that it is impossible for 5 sides to fail at the same time...after I point out an example when they all in fact did fail. Nice.
You say we cannot waste 100 mil plus... after I pointed out an example where we did (and survived).
Then you say that "salaries are more important than revenue"... yet you cannot grasp most basic of logic - wage bill size IS A MANAGEMENT DECISION. If Levy wants and board agrees, starting from next monday we could hike our salary bill by 20% and there would be no problem whatsoever. We could easily afford it. Income (meaning you know, actual money coming in...) is an objective figure and limitation. How much of it club decides to pay for salaries is a management decision and can be easily modified. Much more easily than revenues to be grown.
And as final point - you jump to conclusion that I am hyping Atleti model, when actually I've been talking about difficulty/ease for Atleti to win things in Spain. I am not even saying that we should act like them. You add most of the things you argue against in your own head. And then try to argue with it. No point going on like this, this is my last post on the topic. Sorry for going off topic here and have a good day everyone.
Not to mention that your facts or knowledge is plain wrong "Atleti retain their best players" - goes to check - they have sold likes of Griezman, Hernandez and Rodri for absurd amounts of money within last 5 years (and from previous patch they sold Aguero, de Gea and Costa all to EPL).
It's a vicious circle though.
Arse and City don't need much because they have done the groundwork to build strong squads.
We on the other hand keep taking punts that fail and we then have to keep rebuilding the squad every season. And we get the same old "we can't do it all in one season" excuse.
Mate you are genuinely for real or are you trolling?
You are arguing the exception not the rule, just because they did it once doesn't mean it's evidence of it can work, what's more PSR is in place which means it's doubly hard for a smaller teams to win and for those bigger teams to fail.
Talking about making a mountain out of a fucking molehill, you're using a shit example and still adamant to win the point using the same shit example, just rest.
Again your example was shit, pointing out two players who cost less than 1 player isn't an example, it's stupidity.
It's not what I say, it's been backed up by studies, do yourself a favour and do some research - you can keep trotting out the BS line about revenue it doesn't make it any more true.
Here's some reading for you:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.reading.ac.uk/web/files/economics/emdp202004.pdf
Identifying the Verticals and Metrics That Contribute to Sustained Success in High Performance Sport
For an organization to achieve long term & sustainable development, it must consider economic, environmental, cultural & social factors
www.beautifulgamegroup.com
But again this is how I know you're failing to grasp the argument you doughnut - if you want us to follow the Dortmund and Brighton model then we need to manage our...wage bill like they do - That's literally the whole point of the fucking debate lmao
Teams like those have a sustainable wage bill and sell their best players when they can no longer afford to keep them.Now if you want to move the goalposts of saying that we can afford to increase our wage bill, you're right I agree and I've been banging the drum saying that we should all Summer but that's for a different debate.
Ironic you said that I'm jumping to conclusions that you're hyping Atletico when I didn't say you did, I asked twice why you're bringing them up when they totally contradict your own argument...reading comprehension is your friend.
So after all this you say we shouldn't act like them then WHAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT OF BRINGING THEM UP and arguing in favour of them over the last few posts ffs
Again reading comprehension I said "Atletico for the most part actually keep their best players" you know what that means right...?Nothing funnier than debating with someone who doesn't know their arse from their elbow, lack basic reading comprehension skills who at the same time is totally condensing and blind to their own stupidity
To break the cycle we need 2-3 seasons of big investments and for academy graduates to step up. The last part we're really missing, both City and Woolwich have patched holes with academy players who cost them nothing, and went on to prove themselves to be great talents who in the market would cost them 100m+.
We need to be ruthless and cut losses on dross that won't take us up a level (Richy/Johnson/Werner) and replace with elite technical quality.
If we don't we will remain where we are.
We need to bring in real-deal players. High fee + high wages gets you some one who, 9 times out of 10, hits the ground running.
A Rice
A Haaland
A Walker (lolz)
Etc - they're all players who they knew would just fit in and improve them.
I hear fans say "but we can't have those players" with a bit of self loathing.
We don't try. We should try. If we want to be elite, we can't keep taking punts hoping those players will become elite.
But we also can't keep doing what we did with the likes of Ndombele and GLC, who had 1 good season, and we thought we were snapping them up before a big boy got in.