"Yid" chanting...

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Yid chants, offensive?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 7.8%
  • No

    Votes: 317 92.2%

  • Total voters
    344
It's an old one, but something that has once again been raised recently.

Understand the argument that we're reclaiming the word, but would we dream of doing the same were the word "nigger" and not "yid" ?

The more I think about it, the less comfortable I feel chanting it.

Thoughts?
 

Case

The Fighting Cock
I don't know the history of the word because I'm an ignorant fuck but can it be placed in the same category as "n*gger"?
 
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Derogatory term to encompass a racial denomination.

Much of a muchness in as raw a form like that.

Although the issue that makes this unique is if to be Jewish is actually to be of a certain race, or just a certain belief system.

i.e. can one be racist against a muslim?
 
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I don'ty know what the word means. Can anyone educate?

Is it on a par with the N word or the P word (the one paydro got banned for)?
 
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Belgian Spur

Supporter
It's a common thing amongst football fans to take a word that has been directed at them as abuse and turn it around. You have clubs that call themselves peasants for instance , to disarm the opposite fans that yelled exactly that at them.

My question on all this is where is the limit , is calling WHU fans pikeys not offensive etcetera

There is the jewish tradition at Spurs and in a way we are disarming the word by making it our own. But even in the Jewish community the opinions are very divided.

For us the word means that we unite as a group (was about to say family but with the whole yidfam thing i refrained) , but maybe for non spurs Jewish people it could well be very offensive

But that cunt Badiel made me sing it even louder since he started it , maybe he should start to have a look at his own fans behaviour first :goonermong:
 
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Completly agree with the reasoning behind, "if it was n*gger would we reclaim it?" and maybe thats the difference. I don't know many Jewish people, infact I only know 1 and he's a Spurs fan who uses "yid" and I don't think there are many where I live so maybe thats where my opinion stems from that as I don't hear it that often and that there never seems to be an uproar when it is used unless its relating to Spurs fans chanting, it doesn't hold the same stigma as n*gger for me
 
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I personally don't find it offensive, but if it's hurting people then yeah, maybe we need to have a think about it.
 
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This is just pedantry really and probably not relevant, but n*** is not a shortened form of a perfectly acceptable term, like Yid is. Perhaps a better question would be "would you feel comfortable shouting P*k*?"
 
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Smoked Salmon

Finest human being of all time
Well, since I was the one who pretty much started the debate again, I'll refer back to my posts in the Chelsea fans thread on pages 2 & 3.

https://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/chelsea-scum-and-the-internet.1929/

So, in summary, I don't think it should be used. It is a racist word. I don't forget that the majority of fans who chant it are in no way looking to be racist and see it as harmless or reclaimed, including some younger Jewish fans, but there are still some of us from a Jewish background who were taught that it is racist and it puts a sour taste in the mouth for some of us when it's chanted.

I think it has become so mainstream amongst Spurs fans, at the same time as the Jewish community in Britain has continued to shrink, that some people who chant it don't even know that it's meant to be a racial? That's why I don't judge any fan who has used it without intent to be racist. People just think it's harmless now. But the fact is that there is still a racial minority for whom it isn't. The club clearly recognises this, even down to having the club captain appear in videos about it. So, here in 2012, I think we are getting to the stage where most fans do know where the word comes from and, recalimed or not, it's important to balance intention to be racist against damage that occurs through saying it nontheless.

I do understand the basis of the reclaimed argument, but as Trunk points out, you only really have to substitute the word "nigger" for "yid" and the idea of it being reclaimed doesn't quite sound so good. Indeed, the whole idea of it being recalimed and thus not harmful reminds me of those midd aged suburban Daily Mail readers who used the word "coloured" to refer to black people and insist that they are not being racist because "they met a coloured bloke once and you could call him a black bastard and we'd all have a laugh about it"). Not, me guv, I ain't a racist! ;)
 
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S.L.R said:
This is just pedantry really and probably not relevant, but n*** is not a shortened form of a perfectly acceptable term, like Yid is. Perhaps a better question would be "would you feel comfortable shouting P*k*?"
Nigger is a form of Negro, literally meaning black.

Semantics shouldn't define whether or not something is offensive.

I see your point to an extent though.

soz clicked edit instead of quote
 
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racism is an incredibly bad term in it's own right, we're all the same race. racism is me being a total cunt towards, say a horse... discrimination and derogatory are better words for it... just my two cents
 
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spooky

The Fighting Cock
Something else I remember reading several years back and could never find the source since (thus might be bollocks) is that at one point in the old East End, the locals used the word as a term of endearment rather than a patronising derogatory insult towards the Jewish community (1920s or earlier perhaps?).

Words can change but the issue with this one is that its purely a footballing one and out of football would still heavily offend. Although it appears to heavily offend in football and at Spurs too.
 
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And I'm with Smoked Salmon. We had quite a discussion (before Smoke's time - more the shame) in a 'Yid' thread a couple of months back and in the Chelsea thread linked above.

My view is that if anyone is offended by it, then it shouldn't be used. It's clear that people do get offended, so we shouldn't use it.

I also think it's unjustifiable for non-Jews to use it. You don't get white fans of hip hop calling themselves n*****. If Jewish fans want to use it, then I've got less of an issue with it, but tha majority if people who use it aren't even Jewish.

My daughter's four and I want to start taking her to WHL. I don't want her to think that using 'Yid' is OK.
 
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Smoked Salmon

Finest human being of all time
Case said:
I don't know the history of the word because I'm an ignorant fuck but can it be placed in the same category as "n*gger"?
I was brought up to regard it as such.

I think that the passage of time and the fact that the Jewish community has shrunk is why it doesn't seem on the same level as nigger. Yid, when spoken by a non Jew (Jews sometimes use a similar word that sounds more like yeed/yiid in Yiddish) originated as a slur against Jewish people, particularly Jewish immigrants.

There are plenty of Jewish people alive today who view the word as offensive. That, to me, says that the word has not been sufficiently reclaimed and there is still a section fo the community who is being slurred and offended. That, to me, is enough of a reason to not say it.
 
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Smoked Salmon

Finest human being of all time
Kalyl said:
racism is an incredibly bad term in it's own right, we're all the same race. racism is me being a total cunt towards, say a horse... discrimination and derogatory are better words for it... just my two cents
We are not all the same race.

We are most certainly all human beings and it would be probably correct to say that we are all the same species. But present societal structure is such that the word race is used to classify people based on global ethnic origin.

Yeah, I know, I'm being a pedant.....
 
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spooky said:
Something else I remember reading several years back and could never find the source since (thus might be bollocks) is that at one point in the old East End, the locals used the word as a term of endearment rather than a patronising derogatory insult towards the Jewish community (1920s or earlier perhaps?).
I thought I had posted this already, but I can't find it now…


But, again, obviously semantic shift is important and is indicated just by reading the OED's citations. Just because it used to be an intramural term of endearment 140 years ago doesn't mean it hasn't been a slur in the intervening years.
 
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tehTrunk said:
S.L.R said:
This is just pedantry really and probably not relevant, but n*** is not a shortened form of a perfectly acceptable term, like Yid is. Perhaps a better question would be "would you feel comfortable shouting P*k*?"
n*gger is a form of Negro, literally meaning black.

Semantics shouldn't define whether or not something is offensive.

I see your point to an extent though.

soz clicked edit instead of quote
I don't know any black people who would be OK with me calling them negro! But yeah anyway, I'll shut up now, it's not really the point.

I think it's clear from just the discussions on this forum that some Jewish supporters find it offensive, which is enough really.

Perhaps the discussion could move on to include not just "is it right to continue using it?" but also "how do we go about expurgating it from our culture?"

It's so deeply engrained. Perhaps an extended stay in the Champs League will help. The longer we're in that, the less singing of any sort we seem to have. In the last few years I've found myself seated around so many people who I guarantee would never chant Yid Army LOL.
 
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I honestly believe context is important but completely understand that if it is offensive in any form then it becomes questionable whether it is okay to say.

N****r has been 'reclaimed' as 'yid' has but the sentiment behind the reclaiming of the word might well be different.

I wouldn't wish to cause anyone offence but the word is synonymous with our Club, now, even if it hasn't completely obliterated the negative nature of the word or indeed the chanting that some fans persist in.
 
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