"Yid" chanting...

[Smoked Salmon]

The vote's a bit of a false one. How many non-Jews know how offensive it is to someone who has had it directed at them in the playground?

Well the poll was only ever going to show one answer when you consider the board is mostly made up of non-jewish Spurs fans.

People aren't going to line up to say that they regularly use a racist term, especially if they don't set out with the inetention to be racist.

I think what it boils down to is whether or not the idea that the word is reclaim is a legitimate argument if there are still people it offends. I think that's the scope of it for me. I don't think it's right to start pointing fingers at someone who votes "no" and start calling them a vile racist. I don't think they are a racist. I just think they don't maybe appreciate the full effect of the word, pr perhaps do, but don't want to acknowledge it because otherwise it would require them abstain from the chant while their mates are busy doing it.

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

I posted this in the original thread a couple of months back, and Éperons's link is there too:

I should add that I interviewed a Jewish person a month or so ago. He was complaining about stuff and said "I was queuing in the Post Office next a woman with 'Yid Army' tattooed on her arm. What is the world coming to? It's disgusting and offensive."

I explained the Spurs link, which he'd never heard of before. He had been very offended and said, "Well she wasn't Jewish. She was a fat Chav."

THAT struck it home to me. If non-Spurs fans hear or see it and they don't understand its context, then it is not a positive use of the word and we ought to be mindful of that.

And I won't get on to 'Chav'. That's for another time.

 

[fatfish]

This is obviously a very difficult situation. I am sure that the vast majority of Spurs supporters who use the term 'Yid' in a chant, don't intend for it to be viewed in an offensive manner. It is & always has been at Spurs, used as a "call to arms", a way of confirming our togetherness against those who potentially chanted it at us in the past.

I have been going to WHL regularly swince the mid 70's & seem to remember first hearing it in the late 70's. I didn't know the reason or understand what the word meant at the time it started. Surely, if you don't understand the meaning of the word, you can't therefore be using it in an offensive manner. However, since those days, I learned the meaning of the term, but that has neven stopped me from using it in a chant. That is because I have never used it as an offensive term, directed at others. Nevertheless, I can understand how some people could take offense at the use of the term, especially if they didn't know why it was being used.

The whole crux of this I believe, is whether the chant, whatever the words used are, is used in an offensive way. So when someone shouts "You fat bastard" at on opposition player or fan, is that offensive. If used in an offensive way, then yes it is. When the chant of "sit down you paedophile" is aimed at Wenger, is that offensive? Yes it is.

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

The vote's a bit of a false one. How many non-Jews know how offensive it is to someone who has had it directed at them in the playground?

Well the poll was only ever going to show one answer when you consider the board is mostly made up of non-jewish Spurs fans.

People aren't going to line up to say that they regularly use a racist term, especially if they don't set out with the inetention to be racist.

I think what it boils down to is whether or not the idea that the word is reclaim is a legitimate argument if there are still people it offends. I think that's the scope of it for me. I don't think it's right to start pointing fingers at someone who votes "no" and start calling them a vile racist. I don't think they are a racist. I just think they don't maybe appreciate the full effect of the word, pr perhaps do, but don't want to acknowledge it because otherwise it would require them abstain from the chant while their mates are busy doing it.

Yes. That's the problem, isn't it? If people chanting it don't know it's history of hate, then they don't realise they're chanting something that offends quite a few people.

I'm not Jewish, but I went to school surrounded by Jewish kids and I saw their hurt when they were called 'Yid'. I have been called a Yid in the street outside of football and it offended me.

I have three Jewish friends who regularly go to Spurs and hate the chanting of the word. They realise it's not meant to be offensive, but they're offended nonetheless.

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

This is obviously a very difficult situation. I am sure that the vast majority of Spurs supporters who use the term 'Yid' in a chant, don't intend for it to be viewed in an offensive manner. It is & always has been at Spurs, used as a "call to arms", a way of confirming our togetherness against those who potentially chanted it at us in the past.

I have been going to WHL regularly swince the mid 70's & seem to remember first hearing it in the late 70's. I didn't know the reason or understand what the word meant at the time it started. Surely, if you don't understand the meaning of the word, you can't therefore be using it in an offensive manner. However, since those days, I learned the meaning of the term, but that has neven stopped me from using it in a chant. That is because I have never used it as an offensive term, directed at others. Nevertheless, I can understand how some people could take offense at the use of the term, especially if they didn't know why it was being used.

The whole crux of this I believe, is whether the chant, whatever the words used are, is used in an offensive way. So when someone shouts "You fat bastard" at on opposition player or fan, is that offensive. If used in an offensive way, then yes it is. When the chant of "sit down you paedophile" is aimed at Wenger, is that offensive? Yes it is.

Everything you say is true. But it's still an offensive word.

 

[Éperons]

So what if, instead of circling around whether or not it's offensive, we try to think of alternatives? Substitutes? Kind of like how Snoop has started using 'nephew'?

It would sound artificial at first, but, then, so does any chant.

boom boom boomity boom boom SPURS

For the other two main chants, I really draw blanks. If only they were images I could simply photoshop…

 

[Smolik]

To be honest, I had never really given it that much thought before and had always gone along with the argument that we were 'reclaiming' the word and that it was a good thing. However, not actually being jewish myself I haven't personally got a right to 'reclaim' the word.

The fact that people who are jewish have posted in this thread have said that they are not 100% comfortable with it contradicts the whole argument about reclaiming the word and shows that, although it is (from our fans at least) used with the best of intentions, it is offensive.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

The whole crux of this I believe, is whether the chant, whatever the words used are, is used in an offensive way. So when someone shouts "You fat bastard" at on opposition player or fan, is that offensive. If used in an offensive way, then yes it is. When the chant of "sit down you paedophile" is aimed at Wenger, is that offensive? Yes it is.

There is a difference here.

"You fat bastard" is not a racially based slur. "Wenger is a Paedo" is not based in reality (unless dear Arsene has a child porn conviction that I don't know about). Yid, however, is a racial slur, a slur that has it's origins as targeting a particularly section of the community.

How about this, would it be comparable to say that "fat bastard" was equal to calling a player of, say, Arab extraction a "sand nigger", if the person insisted that the latter was just a friendly jibe?

I think things have to be considered on the likely damage and offense caused just as much as the intent or context when they are being said.

 

[spooky]

It's been reclaimed against those that use it as a venomous insult. Perhaps with CCTV and policing, if we stopped using it then the only ones left are the ones that can be arrested.

I'm sure one person using the word repeatedly at Spurs can get arrested for it. Slightly more difficult with a 1000+ doing the same thing.

 

[S.L.R]

I have three Jewish friends who regularly go to Spurs and hate the chanting of the word. They realise it's not meant to be offensive, but they're offended nonetheless.

This should make people ask themselves what their intentions are. Lots of people say we use it as a way of defusing the hatred, of standing firm alongside our Jewish numbers against bigotry. Other people maybe just say it's just a football clarion call, something that is part of the Spurs experience, and that they don't think about the meaning of the word.

If you're in the first camp, then you can't really justify continuing to use it, given the evidence of Jewish supporters being offended by it.

If you're in the second camp, I guess it's time to start thinking about the meaning of the word and asking yourself whether you're comfortable with using it.

I have been in the former camp in the past but am starting to realise perhaps it is a naive way of thinking.

 

[Éperons]

SPUR(S) ARMY?

Ends up sounding like 'spermy' if you say it enough…

LOL, the idea of WHL chanting something like 'Lily! Lily!' when Parker does a devastating tackle… but these are kind of where my ideas are going.

 

[S.L.R]

Blue and White Army is good for me.

ROFL what about Semite Army (joking)

 

[Éperons]

It's been reclaimed against those that use it as a venomous insult. Perhaps with CCTV and policing, if we stopped using it then the only ones left are the ones that can be arrested.

When this debate has come up in the past, a counter argument I have always heard is that if Spurs stop using it in a 'positive' way, then only the racists and anti-Semites will still use it. That it's 'unfair' (or something) for Spurs fans--because we are not scum--to change our well-intentioned behaviour, when the racists and anti-Semites can continue being racists and anti-Semites. They don't change; we lose history.

Well, it's still only about 30 years of history.

Some parts of history deservedly belong in history.

'When using the "y-word" is outlawed, only outlaws will use the "y-word"' might not be such a bad place to be…

 

[fatfish]

Smoked Salmon .

You fat Jock bastard? You fat Welsh bastard? You fat French bastard. All of those bring a persons race into the statement. Are they equally offensive.

Having said all of that, this thread is making me consider whether I will join in any 'Yid' chants at the Blackburn & Fulham games.

 

[tehTrunk]

Smoked Salmon .

You fat Jock bastard? You fat Welsh bastard? You fat French bastard. All of those bring a persons race into the statement. Are they equally offensive.

Having said all of that, this thread is making me consider whether I will join in any 'Yid' chants at the Blackburn & Fulham games.

Scott, Welsh, French - Nationalities.

Semitic peoples - Race.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Smoked Salmon .

You fat Jock bastard? You fat Welsh bastard? You fat French bastard. All of those bring a persons race into the statement. Are they equally offensive.

I'm not so sure thay are racial. Those are all nationalities, nationalities that are predominantly the same ethnicty as the footballing public.

So no, don't see it the same as Yid, Paki, Nigger and so on.

Having said all of that, this thread is making me consider whether I will join in any 'Yid' chants at the Blackburn & Fulham games.

I think that has to be a matter for your judgment. I won't be considering you a person with racist intentions if you do.

 

[Éperons]

Scott, Welsh, French - Nationalities.

Semitic peoples - Race.

Well, they're all ascriptive distinctions. You're born with that identity or you aren't. (I know that one can convert, or change citizenship, but still…) So I'm not sure how it's useful to distinguish. I will say that, despite this, different groups have faced different levels of persecution over their identities…

 

[da1seggy]

The word Yid in itself is offensive, I think we're all agreed on that. Where the grey area comes about is context.

When I'm with my friends in private (in a car, at home etc), we might greet each other as "wassup my n****", but if I bumped into the same friend in the streets, I wouldn't say that because of how other people (black, white or asian) might perceive the use of it. I don't particularly like the N word, but I still use it (hypocrisy on my part I accept), albeit in certain circumstances - i.e., in private where I know that nobody present is offended.

This is where the problem of the stadium chanting comes in. I'm certain that 99.99% of the Spurs fans that say the chant are not using it to be offensive, but that doesn't mean that everyone in the stadium agrees with it, and if just one person has a problem with it, then it has to be an issue.

On top of that, pretty much every game is broadcast overseas so there can be a misinterpretation of the chant which could show our club in a negative light.

It's a sensitive issue. I for one don't have a problem with it because I understand the context, but in a public arena like a football stadium, greater consideration has to be made to its suitability bearing in mind the audience in attendance and the viewing/listening public.

Just my thoughts on the matter

 

[Belgian Spur]

And I won't get on to 'Chav'. That's for another time.

That just made me feel a bit weird , so its not ok for her to use a negative word describing a group of people but he can retaliate by using a negative word describing another group of people (allbeit not ethnically or religion based it still remains singling out a group of people)

 

[Freudlyuchenko]

Well I am a Jew and I reffer to us 'Spurs' as the Yids, but if we were to drop the name I'd be fine with it as long as we got another one syllable name