"Yid" chanting...

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Yid chants, offensive?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 7.8%
  • No

    Votes: 317 92.2%

  • Total voters
    344

Millbanks

Spurs - Champions Cup of Europe Winners 2011
The police responding to a sensationalist twat's decision to make a public fuss about yid chants, by deciding to arrest a couple out of thousands, for something the police have always been happy for us to do, week in week out, and have been happy to happen since, is not the same as a lorry driver driving his lorry.

The police say "ok this week you'll be arrested for it, even though all other times it's been ok and if you do it next week it'll be fine". That's bullshit, just another example of the vacuous gesture policies that scar our politics. Anyone arrested has a right to pursue their grievance against the spuriousness of the arrest.

The fact the police said "we will arrest you this particular week" doesn't mean it's justified or ok. They aren't our parents, and we're not three years old.
Firstly, I didn't make the comparison between saying 'yid' and being run over by a lorry, if you read back. I simply defended my point of view against that analogy.

Secondly, however you view how the police dealt with the scenario, matter of fact is they had pre-warned everyone that they would be at risk of arrest if found chanting yid. So how can you complain when you get hooked out of the ground for that very 'offence'? I'm not defending the police here, as I am very pro yid-chanting, but if an officer of the law told me "If you do that, I'll arrest you", I done it and was subsequently arrested, I can't feel bitter about it!!

Your last point is bizarre to me. They aren't our parents? We aren't three years old? Fuck it, I'm going on a killing spree Grand Theft Auto style then. Who can stop me? Not the police, they can't tell me what I can and can't do. And I'm an adult. I can make an informed decision all by myself, and if I feel a few dozen people need to die in order to meet my day's expectations, so be it.

I'll explain that to the judge, get it thrown out, claim compo and move to The Bahamas. :thumbup:
 
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Should've arrested David Baddiel!!

:paulinholol:
Can't stand the bloke, and he isn't even very funny.

I am sick and tired of this stupid culture in the UK, where you can't say something in case it upsets someone. What ever happened to the majority rules policy. You can't say anything bad about gays, even though they only represent 1 in 20 people. You can't make jokes about Pakistanis, but it's OK to laugh at the French. Who makes up all these stupid rules. I'm not very tall, and I don't have a lot of hair, but if someone wants to call me a "short balled wanker", it's up to me to man up and let water run off a ducks back. The vast majority of Jews aren't bothered by the Yid chanting, so why the hell is anyone bothered by a few oversensitive politically correct liberals. Like so many people have already said, it's the intent that matters, not the word. Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable, but for Christ's sake, haven't things gone to far now ?
 
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Secondly, however you view how the police dealt with the scenario, matter of fact is they had pre-warned everyone that they would be at risk of arrest if found chanting yid. So how can you complain when you get hooked out of the ground for that very 'offence'? I'm not defending the police here, as I am very pro yid-chanting, but if an officer of the law told me "If you do that, I'll arrest you", I done it and was subsequently arrested, I can't feel bitter about it!!
I'm not sure how I can answer that without repeating myself. I've already explained exactly why the people arrested can feel bitter about it in my view. But I'll try wording it differently: you have a very strange outlook, if you think it's ok for the police to arrest you for whatever they want, as long as they tell you first. I don't accept the validity of their actions and so would be in my rights to continue the actions I normally do every week which is normally of no concern to the police whatsoever, and to complain if they arrested me just because of some cack handed, inept police response to this situation.

Your last point is bizarre to me. They aren't our parents? We aren't three years old? Fuck it, I'm going on a killing spree Grand Theft Auto style then. Who can stop me? Not the police, they can't tell me what I can and can't do. And I'm an adult. I can make an informed decision all by myself, and if I feel a few dozen people need to die in order to meet my day's expectations, so be it.

I'll explain that to the judge, get it thrown out, claim compo and move to The Bahamas. :thumbup:
Sorry, but this is just puerile. My point is, the police don't get to decide what you are and are not allowed to do today. That is not in their remit, if their job is to serve and protect the people, not make rash decisions on what we are and are not allowed to do, like an indecisive parent, punishing us one week for things we are allowed to do all other weeks. Again, an unquestioning and totally submissive outlook on this is just weird to me.
 
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Can't stand the bloke, and he isn't even very funny.

I am sick and tired of this stupid culture in the UK, where you can't say something in case it upsets someone. What ever happened to the majority rules policy. You can't say anything bad about gays, even though they only represent 1 in 20 people. You can't make jokes about Pakistanis, but it's OK to laugh at the French. Who makes up all these stupid rules. I'm not very tall, and I don't have a lot of hair, but if someone wants to call me a "short balled wanker", it's up to me to man up and let water run off a ducks back. The vast majority of Jews aren't bothered by the Yid chanting, so why the hell is anyone bothered by a few oversensitive politically correct liberals. Like so many people have already said, it's the intent that matters, not the word. Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable, but for Christ's sake, haven't things gone to far now ?
You contradict yourself, no?

First you say this:

"You can't say anything bad about gays, even though they only represent 1 in 20 people. You can't make jokes about Pakistanis, but it's OK to laugh at the French. Who makes up all these stupid rules"

Then you say this:

"Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable"

I don't get how the first statement can be reconciled with the second.
 
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For an offence to have been committed, the Prosecution has to prove 2 elements- firstly the Public Order aspect- ie threatening/abusive behaviour within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress. Secondly, that the offence was motivated by hostility based on race/religion. It seems to me that it was decided that in the particular circumstances of that case that one (or both) of those elements was not proven to the required standard-beyond reasonable doubt. Presumably it was felt that the context in which it was chanted could not be shown to be motivated by hostility or in a threatening/abusive way. That's the logical explanation to me at least. But what do I know????
 
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Smoked Salmon

Finest human being of all time
You can't say anything bad about gays, even though they only represent 1 in 20 people. You can't make jokes about Pakistanis, but it's OK to laugh at the French.
Not that I am condoning it, but the French share our ethnicity and religion. So there is a difference from Jews or Pakistanis. Are you saying that you want to free speech so that you can use it to attack people with ethnic stereotypes?
Who makes up all these stupid rules. I'm not very tall, and I don't have a lot of hair, but if someone wants to call me a "short balled wanker", it's up to me to man up and let water run off a ducks back.
Does this mean you have a shrinking sack?:pochsmirk:

The vast majority of Jews aren't bothered by the Yid chanting, so why the hell is anyone bothered by a few oversensitive politically correct liberals.
So any Jew (and, for that matter, gentile) who does object must, by default, be a "PC liberal"?
Like so many people have already said, it's the intent that matters, not the word. Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable, but for Christ's sake, haven't things gone to far now ?
So it's not ok to make ethnic stereotyped jokes against black people, but it is against Pakistanis and Jews? Interesting inconsistency of logic.
 
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Smoked Salmon

Finest human being of all time
Sorry, but this is just puerile. My point is, the police don't get to decide what you are and are not allowed to do today. That is not in their remit, if their job is to serve and protect the people, not make rash decisions on what we are and are not allowed to do, like an indecisive parent, punishing us one week for things we are allowed to do all other weeks. Again, an unquestioning and totally submissive outlook on this is just weird to me.
They haven't decided anything beyond what to use their not infinite resources for. The same legislation that existed then still exists now and has not changed. Parliament and the courts have not shifted the goalposts, they have remained silent. Frankly, I have to say that I think Millbanks Millbanks is absolutely right. There was a structure in place to prosecute people under Section 5 of the Public Order Act. The fans were warned. What's more is the fans were not only warned but those arrested would have been thereafter served with written warning under said Section 5, so in effect they have two warnings, one a formal one, and they still carried on with the chants. That was their decision first and foremost as adult human beings. I don't see how you can have sympathy for that and I see not evidence of wrongful arrest. If it were me I would have shut the fuck up and written a letter to my local MP and/or the club about the issue if I felt so strongly about the police approach to the chant - just as people are doing on issues like safe standing. When the police go out of their way to tell you they will arrest you for doing something and you insist on doing it anyway, how in the hell can you then cry foul when they do it?

As it stands, nothing has changed legally. The law is as it was and the police have come out and said that if they get any direct and proper complaints about peoples' use of the chant they are still reserving the right to refer such cases for prosection and test this issue in the courts.
 
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And as for compensation? I would be enormously surprised if any of them got a penny. IIRC, one of them had coke on him, so he's up shit creek with a wrongful arrest claim. The others? 2 questions would need to be asked
1- were you warned that your behaviour would make you liable to arrest?
2- did you carry on with that behaviour?

Having said that, if I was the judge in any civil case I'd probably award them a fiver each, tell them to pay their own costs & get the fuck out of my court.
 
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Millbanks

Spurs - Champions Cup of Europe Winners 2011
I'm not sure how I can answer that without repeating myself. I've already explained exactly why the people arrested can feel bitter about it in my view. But I'll try wording it differently: you have a very strange outlook, if you think it's ok for the police to arrest you for whatever they want, as long as they tell you first. I don't accept the validity of their actions and so would be in my rights to continue the actions I normally do every week which is normally of no concern to the police whatsoever, and to complain if they arrested me just because of some cack handed, inept police response to this situation.



Sorry, but this is just puerile. My point is, the police don't get to decide what you are and are not allowed to do today. That is not in their remit, if their job is to serve and protect the people, not make rash decisions on what we are and are not allowed to do, like an indecisive parent, punishing us one week for things we are allowed to do all other weeks. Again, an unquestioning and totally submissive outlook on this is just weird to me.
I don't have a law degree, but what I do know is that if the police told me not to do something I wouldn't do it. It's as simple as that. And if I did, I would accept responsibility for taking the risk. Whether that be relevant to chanting a word some find offensive, or ignoring a 'Keep off the grass' sign.

You don't accept the validity so are within your rights...

I don't agree with what the police are saying so I am going to completely ignore them and do what I want, as I am an adult and no one can stop me so long as I disagree with the interpretations of the law.

No no, the world would be chaos if that were the case.

You say their job is to serve and protect the people. That is exactly what they were doing. Serving and protecting those inside and outside the ground that found the chanting of a previously hateful and now divisive word offensive. That was their remit. It was not a rash decision. The decision was made that chanting Yid would be classed as offensive and subject to arrest. Their remit is absolutely to decide what we can and can't do, subject to the current law system in place. It is not for you to decide what you will and won't accept as fair reason to be arrested.
 
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I don't have a law degree, but what I do know is that if the police told me not to do something I wouldn't do it. It's as simple as that. And if I did, I would accept responsibility for taking the risk. Whether that be relevant to chanting a word some find offensive, or ignoring a 'Keep off the grass' sign.

You don't accept the validity so are within your rights...

I don't agree with what the police are saying so I am going to completely ignore them and do what I want, as I am an adult and no one can stop me so long as I disagree with the interpretations of the law.

No no, the world would be chaos if that were the case.

You say their job is to serve and protect the people. That is exactly what they were doing. Serving and protecting those inside and outside the ground that found the chanting of a previously hateful and now divisive word offensive. That was their remit. It was not a rash decision. The decision was made that chanting Yid would be classed as offensive and subject to arrest. Their remit is absolutely to decide what we can and can't do, subject to the current law system in place. It is not for you to decide what you will and won't accept as fair reason to be arrested.
It's up to me if I want to challenge the meaningless of the action though. A few feet away opposition fans are making actual anti Semitic noises, and I get arrested because the police say on this particular weekend they'll nick people for it even though they never do normally, for no discernible reasons, while ignoring those who are actually being anti Semitic. You keep misrepresenting my argument purposefully as a means of belittling it, equating my attitude to that of a child who wants to run amok just because he feels like it, so, fuck it, we clearly don't see eye to eye.
 
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You contradict yourself, no?

First you say this:

"You can't say anything bad about gays, even though they only represent 1 in 20 people. You can't make jokes about Pakistanis, but it's OK to laugh at the French. Who makes up all these stupid rules"

Then you say this:

"Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable"

I don't get how the first statement can be reconciled with the second.
Because you have to draw a line somewhere. If you don't, then no one will ever say anything. What is acceptable to one person is not to another. This is about using common sense. Chanting Yid in a positive manner may upset a handful of people, insulting peoples colour with an offensive song may upset millions of people. Personally I think everyone should man up and get that big fat chip off their shoulder, but I know it won't happen. In the mean time, lets not worry about a handful of over sensitive people !!
 
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Smoked Salmon

Finest human being of all time
Because you have to draw a line somewhere. If you don't, then no one will ever say anything.
Doesn't mean that you have decided to draw the line in the right place.
What is acceptable to one person is not to another.
Steroetyped insults based on race or religion, or both, is acceptable when? How about sexuality? You like to mock and deride gay people. I think that's a disgrace, and I don't say that as an Guardianista liberal.
This is about using common sense.
I am not so sure this is a concept you are entirely in tune with.
Chanting Yid in a positive manner may upset a handful of people, insulting peoples colour with an offensive song may upset millions of people.
Ahhh, the old chesnut that the majority opinion must always by the right one. Foolish.
Personally I think everyone should man up and get that big fat chip off their shoulder, but I know it won't happen. In the mean time, lets not worry about a handful of over sensitive people !!
So I if I look at you as a boorish, crude, ill educated example of this country's trumpted up neauvou ex-working class who drive their white vans to their plumbing jobs and think that 50 years old makes them a worldly wide expert because the tabloids told them so, i.e. a total moron, you'd be comfortable with that stereotype? Ya know, 'cause people being over sensitive and all......?
 
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[QUOTE="
So I if I look at you as a boorish, crude, ill educated example of this country's trumpted up neauvou ex-working class who drive their white vans to their plumbing jobs and think that 50 years old makes them a worldly wide expert because the tabloids told them so, i.e. a total moron, you'd be comfortable with that stereotype? Ya know, 'cause people being over sensitive and all......?[/QUOTE]

Mate, I am not sensitive and have a chip on my shoulder. If you said that to my face, I would probably laugh and then buy you pint of your favourite tipple. My point is that people are now expected to tip toe around each other all the time, just in case someone gets offended. If everyone manned up and realised that it sticks and stones that break bones, then we would get on with each other. I have several black friends who 100% agree with me, and are embarrassed by our Liberal and politically correct culture.
 
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Can't stand the bloke, and he isn't even very funny.

I am sick and tired of this stupid culture in the UK, where you can't say something in case it upsets someone. What ever happened to the majority rules policy. You can't say anything bad about gays, even though they only represent 1 in 20 people. You can't make jokes about Pakistanis, but it's OK to laugh at the French. Who makes up all these stupid rules. I'm not very tall, and I don't have a lot of hair, but if someone wants to call me a "short balled wanker", it's up to me to man up and let water run off a ducks back. The vast majority of Jews aren't bothered by the Yid chanting, so why the hell is anyone bothered by a few oversensitive politically correct liberals. Like so many people have already said, it's the intent that matters, not the word. Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable, but for Christ's sake, haven't things gone to far now ?
How would you define a majority rules policy? Feeling a little delicate today but can't decide if I'm upset more by that snippet or the fact that people agreed/ found it funny. The concept of a majority inclination being all important is absolutely absurd and wholly ignorant. History suggests that such theories may not be progressive, meanwhile there are groups of men using such logic to rape woman and that's just the surface. Terrifying internet words a plenty.
 
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Can't stand the bloke, and he isn't even very funny.

I am sick and tired of this stupid culture in the UK, where you can't say something in case it upsets someone. What ever happened to the majority rules policy. You can't say anything bad about gays, even though they only represent 1 in 20 people. You can't make jokes about Pakistanis, but it's OK to laugh at the French. Who makes up all these stupid rules. I'm not very tall, and I don't have a lot of hair, but if someone wants to call me a "short balled wanker", it's up to me to man up and let water run off a ducks back. The vast majority of Jews aren't bothered by the Yid chanting, so why the hell is anyone bothered by a few oversensitive politically correct liberals. Like so many people have already said, it's the intent that matters, not the word. Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable, but for Christ's sake, haven't things gone to far now ?
spot on. luckily for me none of my mates are sad enough to moan when jokes are made about certain groups of people. can joke about virtually anything and they'll take it for what it is. a joke.
 
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I am a Jew and I have mixed feelings about Yid chants. First, I need to make a disclaimer that I'm an American and have no understanding of anti-Semitism in the UK. So take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

But here is my basic take: On one hand, I take some pride in our co-opting of vulgar slurs and removing the power from them. There is nothing offensive or hurtful in Spurs supporters' chants. There is no level of disrespect that I have ever discerned.

On the other hand, Spurs supporters' identification with Jews may, to some extent, encourage schmuck fans of other teams to engage in anti-Spurs chants that are, in fact, anti-Semitic and hurtful. It doesn't really matter if "they" started it and we tried to diffuse it. At this point, in some ways our self-identification as Yids does encourage some pretty wicked stuff.

I will one day make it to The Lane, and I'd love to take my young sons with me. But I'm not sure I'd want them to hear some of this stuff at this point. They're too young to understand when certain language is okay and when it isn't. Like I said, it's not an easy issue, but I really appreciate the level of discourse here on the subject.

I'll just add in closing, as an American, nothing is more foreign to me than that thought that someone would get arrested for saying "Yid," or the n-word, or anything else. I don't want to hear anti-Semitic bullshit, but I sure want to know who is feeble-minded, who is racist and who is anti-Semitic. So, for that reason alone I wouldn't want to ban the use of any words.
 
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I am a Jew and I have mixed feelings about Yid chants. First, I need to make a disclaimer that I'm an American and have no understanding of anti-Semitism in the UK. So take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

But here is my basic take: On one hand, I take some pride in our co-opting of vulgar slurs and removing the power from them. There is nothing offensive or hurtful in Spurs supporters' chants. There is no level of disrespect that I have ever discerned.

On the other hand, Spurs supporters' identification with Jews may, to some extent, encourage schmuck fans of other teams to engage in anti-Spurs chants that are, in fact, anti-Semitic and hurtful. It doesn't really matter if "they" started it and we tried to diffuse it. At this point, in some ways our self-identification as Yids does encourage some pretty wicked stuff.

I will one day make it to The Lane, and I'd love to take my young sons with me. But I'm not sure I'd want them to hear some of this stuff at this point. They're too young to understand when certain language is okay and when it isn't. Like I said, it's not an easy issue, but I really appreciate the level of discourse here on the subject.

I'll just add in closing, as an American, nothing is more foreign to me than that thought that someone would get arrested for saying "Yid," or the n-word, or anything else. I don't want to hear anti-Semitic bullshit, but I sure want to know who is feeble-minded, who is racist and who is anti-Semitic. So, for that reason alone I wouldn't want to ban the use of any words.
Sticks and stones may break my bones
But names will never hurt me
 
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Yorkshire_Spurs

@daveyglee
Can't stand the bloke, and he isn't even very funny.

I am sick and tired of this stupid culture in the UK, where you can't say something in case it upsets someone. What ever happened to the majority rules policy. You can't say anything bad about gays, even though they only represent 1 in 20 people. You can't make jokes about Pakistanis, but it's OK to laugh at the French. Who makes up all these stupid rules. I'm not very tall, and I don't have a lot of hair, but if someone wants to call me a "short balled wanker", it's up to me to man up and let water run off a ducks back. The vast majority of Jews aren't bothered by the Yid chanting, so why the hell is anyone bothered by a few oversensitive politically correct liberals. Like so many people have already said, it's the intent that matters, not the word. Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable, but for Christ's sake, haven't things gone to far now ?
Short balled wanker

Edit: Flannerz Flannerz beat me to it.

Still, you are short and balled.
 
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.... Who makes up all these stupid rules. I'm not very tall, and I don't have a lot of hair, but if someone wants to call me a "short balled wanker", it's up to me to man up and let water run off a ducks back. The vast majority of Jews aren't bothered by the Yid chanting, so why the hell is anyone bothered by a few oversensitive politically correct liberals. Like so many people have already said, it's the intent that matters, not the word. Yes, society has moved on, and chanting songs about black people is unacceptable, but for Christ's sake, haven't things gone to far now ?
...are your balls short as well then?
How is that even possible??
 
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