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Transfers The Home Grown Dilemma

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sudoku said:
New list:
2023-24NEW
1VICARIONON HG
2FORSTERHG
3AUSTINHG
4WHITEMANHG
5DAVIESHG
6VDVNON HG
7PHILLIPSHG
8ROMERONON-HG
9DIERNON-HG
10ROYALNON-HG
11PORRONON-HG
12SESSEGNONHG
13PERISICNON-HG
14UDOGIEU 21
15HOJBJERGNON-HG
16BISSOUMANON-HG
17LO CELSONON-HG
18BENTANCURNON-HG
19MADDISONHG
20SARRU 21
21SKIPPHG
22JOHNSONHG
23SOLOMONHG
24KULUSEVSKINON-HG
25GILNON-HG
26RICHARLISONNON-HG
27SONNON-HG
28VELIZNON-HG
HG TOTAL8
NON-HG TOTAL16
U 214
28
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Thanks
1) Manor Solomon can never be HG, he's 24 and moved to Fulham a year ago and trained overseas
2) We have Austin and Whiteman as HG but as only need one 3rd GK
So that's 6 HG.
3) Veliz currently u21

Roll forward 12 months to start of 24/25 and Sarr, Udogieand, Veliz will all become 'non HG' or Overseas trained players meaning we start off the transfer window with 19 'non HG players - ie we need to 'lose' two of them (not a real problem as Dier and Perisic contracts will come to an end).

However if Davies, Sessegnon and Forster leave (all of which is possible as we might decide to upgrade all 3), we are left with :
Club Trained Players - Skipp and Austin
Players Trained by other clubs affiliated to FA and FAW - Maddison, Johnson (Phillips probably still u21),

Or 4 HG players (plus Phillips).
So we might want to buy one HG player next summer, but our real gap is in Club trained players. We do have a decent crop coming through from the Academy so just need to hope manager helps them develop into First Team - players such as Devine, Scarlett, Donley, (possibly Phillips dependent upon whether he needs to be loaned out), Craig and a few others.





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Spursidol said:
Thanks
1) Manor Solomon can never be HG, he's 24 and moved to Fulham a year ago and trained overseas
2) We have Austin and Whiteman as HG but as only need one 3rd GK
So that's 6 HG.
3) Veliz currently u21

Roll forward 12 months to start of 24/25 and Sarr, Udogieand, Veliz will all become 'non HG' or Overseas trained players meaning we start off the transfer window with 19 'non HG players - ie we need to 'lose' two of them (not a real problem as Dier and Perisic contracts will come to an end).

However if Davies, Sessegnon and Forster leave (all of which is possible as we might decide to upgrade all 3), we are left with :
Club Trained Players - Skipp and Austin
Players Trained by other clubs affiliated to FA and FAW - Maddison, Johnson (Phillips probably still u21),

Or 4 HG players (plus Phillips).
So we might want to buy one HG player next summer, but our real gap is in Club trained players. We do have a decent crop coming through from the Academy so just need to hope manager helps them develop into First Team - players such as Devine, Scarlett, Donley, (possibly Phillips dependent upon whether he needs to be loaned out), Craig and a few others.





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My copy and paste went askew.
Just edited my errors.
But the totals are correct,
Amended list:

2023-24NON HGHGU21
1VICARIONON HG1
2FORSTERHG1
3AUSTINHG2
4WHITEMANHG3
5DAVIESHG4
6VDVNON HG2
7PHILLIPSU 211
8ROMERONON-HG3
9DIERNON-HG4
10ROYALNON-HG5
11PORRONON-HG6
12SESSEGNONHG5
13PERISICNON-HG7
14UDOGIEU 212
15HOJBJERGNON-HG8
16BISSOUMANON-HG9
17LO CELSONON-HG10
18BENTANCURNON-HG11
19MADDISONHG6
20SARRU 213
21SKIPPHG7
22JOHNSONHG8
23SOLOMONNON HG12
24KULUSEVSKINON-HG13
25GILNON-HG14
26RICHARLISONNON-HG15
27SONNON-HG16
28VELIZU 214
TOTAL1684
HG TOTAL8
NON-HG TOTAL16
U 214
28
 
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sudoku said:
New list:
2023-24NEW
1VICARIONON HG
2FORSTERHG
3AUSTINHG
4WHITEMANHG
5DAVIESHG
6VDVNON HG
7PHILLIPSU21
8ROMERONON-HG
9DIERNON-HG
10ROYALNON-HG
11PORRONON-HG
12SESSEGNONHG
13PERISICNON-HG
14UDOGIEU 21
15HOJBJERGNON-HG
16BISSOUMANON-HG
17LO CELSONON-HG
18BENTANCURNON-HG
19MADDISONHG
20SARRU 21
21SKIPPHG
22JOHNSONHG
23SOLOMONNON HG
24KULUSEVSKINON-HG
25GILNON-HG
26RICHARLISONNON-HG
27SONNON-HG
28VELIZU21
HG TOTAL8
NON-HG TOTAL16
U 214
28
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Thanks for the 'Cleaned up' version.

1 We have 16 non HG players now but 3 of the u21's (Sarr, Udogie and Veliz) will become non HG at start of 24/25

2 There are 8 HG player listed but there are two 3rd GK's listed (Austin and Whiteman) so there's really only 7 HG players listed of which I doubt if Sessegnon, Forster or Davies will be part of the squad at start of 24/25, so the HG numbers in 12 months time could well be :
Club Trained
Austin, Skipp (2)
Trained by other clubs affiliated to The FA or FAW
Maddison, Johnson (2)

Phillips will still count as an u21 (under PL definitions, not UEFA) so we could well find ourselves with 4 HG players and a maximum squad size down to 21 players aged 21 or over without signing at least one HG player (unless the likes of Forster, Davies, Spence are retained).

And long term we need to ensure there is a pathway to the first team for some of the Academy youngsters - Devine, Scarlett, Donley, Craig et al being in that age 19/20 when they might become involved in the first team
 
Spursidol said:
Roll forward 12 months to start of 24/25 and Sarr, Udogie and, Veliz will all become 'non HG' or Overseas trained players meaning we start off the transfer window with 19 'non HG players - ie we need to 'lose' two of them (not a real problem as Dier and Perisic contracts will come to an end).

However if Davies, Sessegnon and Forster leave (all of which is possible as we might decide to upgrade all 3), we are left with :
Club Trained Players - Skipp and Austin
Players Trained by other clubs affiliated to FA and FAW - Maddison, Johnson (Phillips probably still u21),

Or 4 HG players (plus Phillips).
So we might want to buy one HG player next summer, but our real gap is in Club trained players. We do have a decent crop coming through from the Academy so just need to hope manager helps them develop into First Team - players such as Devine, Scarlett, Donley, (possibly Phillips dependent upon whether he needs to be loaned out), Craig and a few others.





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Great post. Ange is the ideal man to oversee this new chapter
Already 10 "gone" and almost certain not to return except perhaps Spence??
I also believe Sessegnon , who always looks nervous, will thrive under Ange's "don't worry about making mistakes" regime.
 
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The current HG crisis shows how poorly the squad has been managed in the last years

I hope we don't overspend on average HG players that won't add any value to the squad.
 
Richard Arlison said:
Yahoo via football insider saying Tosin back on the menu in January. Cut price deal.
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Cut price, you say?

Tottenham-chairman-Daniel-011.jpg
 
🟣🌕Carl Johnson🌕🟣 said:
The current HG crisis shows how poorly the squad has been managed in the last years

I hope we don't overspend on average HG players that won't add any value to the squad.
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Poor squad management has been for last decade, starting with Poch's sale of a number of Academy players for £100m to buy the likes of Sissoko but over the 6 years of his reign as manager only brought through one player, Winks which is an appalling statistic. Included in his sales was Milos Veljcovic who has been CB for Werder Bremen for some 200 appearances plus two dozen for Serbia and faced Kane when he made his debut for Bayern.

Mourhino helped by loaning out Skipp for a season to get better prepared for PL and giving debuts to Devine, Scarlett and a couple of others, but Conte was a disaster.

One of the side effects of poor youth development has been fewer good youth staying (as there are clubs with better development records) - players such as Spurs u16 captain Madueke decided to leave before signing a contract as have a few other potentially good players.

But fortunately there are still a few coming through who might make the grade at Spurs - so its down to a combination of Ange and those organising loans to help convert some potential into first team squad players over the next couple of years.
 
Spursidol said:
Poor squad management has been for last decade, starting with Poch's sale of a number of Academy players for £100m to buy the likes of Sissoko but over the 6 years of his reign as manager only brought through one player, Winks which is an appalling statistic. Included in his sales was Milos Veljcovic who has been CB for Werder Bremen for some 200 appearances plus two dozen for Serbia and faced Kane when he made his debut for Bayern.

Mourhino helped by loaning out Skipp for a season to get better prepared for PL and giving debuts to Devine, Scarlett and a couple of others, but Conte was a disaster.

One of the side effects of poor youth development has been fewer good youth staying (as there are clubs with better development records) - players such as Spurs u16 captain Madueke decided to leave before signing a contract as have a few other potentially good players.

But fortunately there are still a few coming through who might make the grade at Spurs - so its down to a combination of Ange and those organising loans to help convert some potential into first team squad players over the next couple of years.
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We also lost a very talented youth player this summer, can't remember his name.

Agree on Poch no loan policy between 2015–2019 and 4 years of Mourinho, Nuno, Conte have brought us to this stage.

Surprisingly enough, Mourinho of all coaches has had more impact on our youth setup than all other managers combined in the last 7/8 years.
 
I forget which podcast talked about this a few weeks ago in detail, but we've completely changed our wage scale for Academy stand-outs. The former Director (possibly Rastrick) had a strict policy about limiting wages to keep the players hungry to achieve 1st Team status. That led to a lot of Academy defections. If we didn't significantly increase our pay, then Mikey Moore and others would have likely had to leave for better opportunities elsewhere. Anyway, the club trained problem should improve over the next several years, as a result of these wage increase.
 
🟣🌕Carl Johnson🌕🟣 said:
We also lost a very talented youth player this summer, can't remember his name.

Agree on Poch no loan policy between 2015–2019 and 4 years of Mourinho, Nuno, Conte have brought us to this stage.

Surprisingly enough, Mourinho of all coaches has had more impact on our youth setup than all other managers combined in the last 7/8 years.
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Agree with all that.

I think you are thinking about last summer when we lost Samuel Amo-Ayeyaw (AM) and Jayden Meghoma (LB) to Southampton - both E youth regulars who declined to sign scholarship terms really due to our record on development and probably wages too. Amo-Ameyaw has made his PL debut with them as well as being involved in Championship matches this season and Meghoma his Carabou cup, despite both being only 17.

Both losses of very good youngsters who we might well regret - I was delighted we managed to hang onto Moore and Olusesi this summer who were being hunted by a few clubs, and again two of our best players in that age group.
 
Leggo5 said:
I forget which podcast talked about this a few weeks ago in detail, but we've completely changed our wage scale for Academy stand-outs. The former Director (possibly Rastrick) had a strict policy about limiting wages to keep the players hungry to achieve 1st Team status. That led to a lot of Academy defections. If we didn't significantly increase our pay, then Mikey Moore and others would have likely had to leave for better opportunities elsewhere. Anyway, the club trained problem should improve over the next several years, as a result of these wage increase.
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Not listened to the podcast but read about it a while ago. Wasn't just us, there were a few clubs that brought in quite strict wages for youth players to try and keep them grounded. I think at least Spurs, Liverpool and Saints brought it in and expected other clubs to follow them in doing so but instead other clubs didn't and then Saints decided to increase their wage structure and nabbed 2 of our best u16 prospects who are now playing with England u18s. Rule changes to do with brexit and young players from abroad mean clubs like Chelsea and Man City are willing to offer more to try and entice players from UK academies before they can sign pro-contracts so we sort of had to follow suit if we wanted to keep players like Moore and Olusesi
 
Spursidol said:
Agree with all that.

I think you are thinking about last summer when we lost Samuel Amo-Ayeyaw (AM) and Jayden Meghoma (LB) to Southampton - both E youth regulars who declined to sign scholarship terms really due to our record on development and probably wages too. Amo-Ameyaw has made his PL debut with them as well as being involved in Championship matches this season and Meghoma his Carabou cup, despite both being only 17.

Both losses of very good youngsters who we might well regret - I was delighted we managed to hang onto Moore and Olusesi this summer who were being hunted by a few clubs, and again two of our best players in that age group.
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Imagine Carl Johnson Carl Johnson is talking about Mundle
 
Spursidol said:
Agree with all that.

I think you are thinking about last summer when we lost Samuel Amo-Ayeyaw (AM) and Jayden Meghoma (LB) to Southampton - both E youth regulars who declined to sign scholarship terms really due to our record on development and probably wages too. Amo-Ameyaw has made his PL debut with them as well as being involved in Championship matches this season and Meghoma his Carabou cup, despite both being only 17.

Both losses of very good youngsters who we might well regret - I was delighted we managed to hang onto Moore and Olusesi this summer who were being hunted by a few clubs, and again two of our best players in that age group.
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Click to shrink...
I was talking about Mundle

I'm happy we managed to keep Moore, I hear a lot of good things about him.
 
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