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Manager Ange Postecoglou

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Phomesy said:
I'll stipulate to the Palace and Ipswich games etc...

However I can't agree with you on Vic. Or even Romero even though he's been poor at times.

When VDV went down (the first time) I was worried for the league season. When Vic went down I knew what has happened would happen. Forster and Drag have done fine in their limited way but they can't possibly replace the dynamism and ball ability of those they replaced. It s fucked us going both ways.

Only Gray is anywhere near calm and good enough on the ball but he doesn't have VDV's recover pace so... fucked again.

None of which gainsays any of your points about other losses but let's be serious - our squad is threadbare and we lost 3 of the most important cogs in it. We won't get anywhere until they come back (we certainly won't find the requisite quality in January)
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I remember when Liverpool lost all their centre backs and I believe Alisson too ( I think Adrian had to play) and they ended up still getting top four. They obviously weren't as good, but through a genuinely top coach and some adaptations, they remained a competitive football team. The guys playing were league 1/championship level at best. We have premier league quality footballers in these roles.

Of course we aren't and can't be the same team whilst missing these players, but a top coach shouldn't need it to grind our results during difficult periods. These are the kind of times the manager makes his bloody money. If we can only pick up results when everything is gucci (we still weren't!!!) then what is the point of him?
 
The big risk right now is we stick with Ange, and maybe pick up only 2 points from our next 6-8 Prem games while our first choice CBs return to health, and then find ourselves in a real relegation battle.

Another risk of keeping Ange is that he fumbles the health of returning Romero and VdV, as well as the other forwards, and that we stay in a perpetual injury crisis.
 
Deuterz said:
I remember when Liverpool lost all their centre backs and I believe Alisson too ( I think Adrian had to play) and they ended up still getting top four. They obviously weren't as good, but through a genuinely top coach and some adaptations, they remained a competitive football team. The guys playing were league 1/championship level at best. We have premier league quality footballers in these roles.
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I think I remember that period but it was brief. Like I've said the only comparable crisis was Newcastle and they plunged just like we are.

Deuterz said:
Of course we aren't and can't be the same team whilst missing these players, but a top coach shouldn't need it to grind our results during difficult periods. These are the kind of times the manager makes his bloody money. If we can only pick up results when everything is gucci (we still weren't!!!) then what is the point of him?
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Phomesy said:
None of which gainsays any of your points about other losses...
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👍
 
Kiro Kompiro said:
How many games has he lost with the first 11 fully fit?
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Who cares? How often does a manager ever have his first 11 fully fit? Liverpool currently don't. I don't think they have all of this season. Woolwich definitely don't, nor do pretty much any of the top 10. At any one time you can expect to have some key players out at premier league level.

Ange plays high tempo, high intensity football for a top 6 club who play in numerous comps. His teams have a history of hamstring injuries. If his teams can't win without his first 11 fully fit, he's no good to anybody.

We had 1 first XI player out for the loss vs Newcastle. 0 against Woolwich. 0 against Brighton and 0 against Palace. We already had a crap record prior to injuries being a major concern. I promise you the teams we lost to would've had injury concerns of their own.
 
bk_spur said:
The big risk right now is we stick with Ange, and maybe pick up only 2 points from our next 6-8 Prem games while our first choice CBs return to health, and then find ourselves in a real relegation battle.
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I suspect one of the factors is that the squad seems entirely behind Ange, so any sacking risks a total collapse of morale AS WELL AS continued poor results.

Especially as Romero, Vic and VDV appear to be fully Ange in.

This is just a suspicion mind you but a fairly rational one on evidence available.

Which is not to say Ange shouldn't be sacked - just looking at why it might be more difficult a decision than you'd think give Levy's history.
bk_spur said:
Another risk of keeping Ange is that he fumbles the health of returning Romero and VdV, as well as the other forwards, and that we stay in a perpetual injury crisis.
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There hasn't been any hint that any player blames Ange for their injury woes. Most sporting environments I've been in or followed has always leaked if a player feels aggrieved about such things.

I might be wrong though - but I don't think i am.
 
Phomesy said:
I think I remember that period but it was brief. Like I've said the only comparable crisis was Newcastle and they plunged just like we are.






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Not brief at all and they had Van Dijk out for almost the whole season and were playing Fabinho at centre back most weeks. Managed to finish 3rd. My problem is I can forgive the injuries but the tactics look a mess. At points there were 35-40 yds of space between our rear line and forward line.

Then at the end we just sat back to defend with no real shape no adjustments to see out the game.
 
Deuterz said:
Really shouldn't need saying. Absolutely fucking abysmal.

Hopefully Newcastle & Woolwich do us favours, otherwise we will drop down to 13th. 1 point ahead of West Ham, 4 ahead of Crystal Palace, a low level side who even by their standards are considered to be having an iffy season.

I'm not sure why people are bothering to still defend this. We are quite literally in the cluster of extremely not good sides who are just about better than relegation. We have some injuries but ultimately only Vicario and VDV are starters. Missing them and some squad players should not ever lead to where we are.
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Can Ange coach this team to at least 10 wins this next half of the season? I think we need about that much to get top 7. 54 pts should do it, right?
 
Phomesy said:
I suspect one of the factors is that the squad seems entirely behind Ange, so any sacking risks a total collapse of morale AS WELL AS continued poor results.

Especially as Romero, Vic and VDV appear to be fully Ange in.

This is just a suspicion mind you but a fairly rational one on evidence available.
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I agree that the players do not look demoralized out there yet. They haven't quit. They just look tired and short of ideas.

There hasn't been any hint that any player blames Ange for their injury woes. Most sporting environments I've been in or followed has always leaked if a player feels aggrieved about such things.

I might be wrong though - but I don't think i am.
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For whatever reason it doesn't feel like Ange has been able to manage the health of the squad relative to the games/comps faced. Obviously it's undeniable he rushed back both VdV and Romero and now they are out longer because of it. The comments about Udogie not being able to be rested while Reggie has been very available and very paid, are bizarre in the context of Spence being seemingly banished but in actuality a very good player. These observations plus the general sniff/vibes test tell me something is wrong even if it can't quite be fully proven right now.
 
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Shadydan said:
Ange is fine, this fanbase just doesn't have any patience to see a rebuild through, I get it but it's kinda boring reading the same comments over time and time again.

I'm genuinely intrigued to see how the rest of the season plays out under him, hopefully I get my wish.
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What reBUILD. Please, draw it out for everyone here. What are the outlines of the reBUILD. Together with actual proof that is happening. Building something is not some Bloody Mary urban myth that just saying the term three times will magically make it appear. There has to be plan, there have to be some aspects of proof that this thing in fact is happening.

I love this club and I want it to do well. And I do not see any progress at all. Not even the slighest. Results have been getting progressively worse and worse and worse and worse. What currently is happening is demolishion. I do not see incremental gains from one week or one month to another. I see that we have just completed half a season with 24 points. I see calendar year being finished with 51 points. A full year of unmitigated disaster. If we would actually adapt in some way and I would actually witness improvements in our games and results, the story would be different. But our performances under him started off well, but the longer period you look, the worse average results get. What grants and guarantees the inherent belief that we are building anything and not destroying?

You say that it is boring to read same comments over and over again. I get it. But change then the dynamics and lay out some explained arguments where this progress lies in. Right now all I see from people who urge to keep him are very basic and vague. Mainly can be summed up as "have more patience", "give him more time", "chananging managers does not fix all the issues", "who is even available to take over now" etc. Also quite repetitive.

It is sports and everything is evaluated through the results. I know what you say - that long term results are what matter - and it is true as well. Only as I pointed out - so far the longer it goes on, the worse results have been getting. So again - based on what should we expect this trend to change?
 
Deuterz said:
Who cares? How often does a manager ever have his first 11 fully fit?
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If we're goingto say things like "we lost games we should have won even with a full team, so the injury excuse is no excuse" then its relevant to know how man times that actually happened.

Deuterz said:
Liverpool currently don't. I don't think they have all of this season. Woolwich definitely don't, nor do pretty much any of the top 10.
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Both those are teams at far more advanced stages of development.

Deuterz said:
At any one time you can expect to have some key players out at premier league level.
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"Having some key players out can mean" one or two key players out, or your entire back four out and not a single recognized CB available. They're not equivalent.

Deuterz said:
Ange plays high tempo, high intensity football for a top 6 club who play in numerous comps. His teams have a history of hamstring injuries. If his teams can't win without his first 11 fully fit, he's no good to anybody.
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The unjuries occur at the beginning. Why they're still happening is open to opinion.

Deuterz said:
We had 1 first XI player out for the loss vs Newcastle. 0 against Woolwich. 0 against Brighton and 0 against Palace. We already had a crap record prior to injuries being a major concern. I promise you the teams we lost to would've had injury concerns of their own.
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The scores were 1-2 (A), 0-1 (H), 2-3 (A) and 0-1 (A). One goal losses, probably should have beaten Brighton and Palace.
 
enfield1985 said:
Not brief at all and they had Van Dijk out for almost the whole season and were playing Fabinho at centre back most weeks. Managed to finish 3rd.
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Was Allison and their other first choice CB's missing all at the same time for that period? No. Did the Van Dijk injury derail their season on its own? Yes. They finished behind Man United by some distance after being the most dominant side in thw world the season before. Injuries matter 🤷‍♂️

enfield1985 said:
My problem is I can forgive the injuries but the tactics look a mess. At points there were 35-40 yds of space between our rear line and forward line.

Then at the end we just sat back to defend with no real shape no adjustments to see out the game.
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Fair enough. I'd just say that when you go into a game with the injuries to the defence we have - to lose another one is... just compounding in the sense of organisation you've managed to cobble together.

Again I'm not trying to say that any of this means you should be "Ange In" by any means. Just that we are genuinely in a crisis.
 
bk_spur said:
Obviously it's undeniable he rushed back both VdV and Romero and now they are out longer because of it.
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It is deniable. Neither you or me know whose decision that was.

Prior to this Postecoglou has been very careful with player welfare. He subbed Romero off against Brentford for concssion concerns in his 1st ever game. He's taken a lot of time to bring players back carefully. Maybe this all changed with the pressure he was under

Or maybe it was just terrible luck.

We don't actually know. If the players didn't think they were ready they would have leaked it (or their agents would)
 
Kiro Kompiro said:
If we're goingto say things like "we lost games we should have won even with a full team, so the injury excuse is no excuse" then its relevant to know how man times that actually happened.



Both those are teams at far more advanced stages of development.



"Having some key players out can mean" one or two key players out, or your entire back four out and not a single recognized CB available. They're not equivalent.



The unjuries occur at the beginning. Why they're still happening is open to opinion.



The scores were 1-2 (A), 0-1 (H), 2-3 (A) and 0-1 (A). One goal losses, probably should have beaten Brighton and Palace.
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We're saying things like we were poor when we had very few injuries. I don't think missing one player justifies losing to Ipswich at home. Do you? Is that our level of expectation now? If so, I feel sorry for you as you appear to think you're supporting Leicester City.

Do you think they're the only teams to have injuries? You think the other teams occupying top spots haven't had injuries this season?

We currently have two starting centre backs out and a goalkeeper. The rest are squad players. Wolves had their star player come off at half time and a starting midfielder and defender. They are fighting relegation. We are at home. We have a recognised CB available, he's called Dragusin. He's been available this whole time. He cost twenty-five million pounds and was wanted by Bayern Munich.

Should have beaten them? Why? Because you think so? Brighton had more shots on goal and more xG. Palace had more Xg, more shots, more shots on target. You saying things doesn't make it true. In fact we got exactly the points we deserved from those fixtures.

I've never seen a manager get treated to so many excuses or such a level of spin. I will give Ange credit - he does at least seem to have no shortage of people willing to defend him. Something about the man must inspire a kind of loyalty or devotion anyway.
 
Deuterz said:
Is that our level of expectation now? If so, I feel sorry for you as you appear to think you're supporting Leicester City.

Do you think they're the only teams to have injuries? You think the other teams occupying top spots haven't had injuries this season?

We currently have two starting centre backs out and a goalkeeper. The rest are squad players. Wolves had their star player come off at half time and a starting midfielder and defender. They are fighting relegation. We are at home. We have a recognised CB available, he's called Dragusin. He's been available this whole time. He cost twenty-five million pounds and was wanted by Bayern Munich.

Should have beaten them? Why? Because you think so? Brighton had more shots on goal and more xG. Palace had more Xg, more shots, more shots on target. You saying things doesn't make it true. In fact we got exactly the points we deserved from those fixtures.

I've never seen a manager get treated to so many excuses or such a level of spin. I will give Ange credit - he does at least seem to have no shortage of people willing to defend him. Something about the man must inspire a kind of loyalty or devotion anyway.
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You've said yourself that in only 3 games all season has there been a full compliment of players available. Yes other clubs have injuries, but the top clubs to cover that, have deep squads. Tottenhams sqaud quality falls off a cliff when the first 11 aren't available

Dragusin played under an injury cloud. That he was the only recognized CB doesn't actually help your argument.

So my question is: Who would you play and what tactics would you use next match?
 
Kiro Kompiro said:
You've said yourself that in only 3 games all season has there been a full compliment of players available. Yes other clubs have injuries, but the top clubs to cover that, have deep squads. Tottenhams sqaud quality falls off a cliff when the first 11 aren't available

Dragusin played under an injury cloud. That he was the only recognized CB doesn't actually help your argument.

So my question is: Who would you play and what tactics would you use next match?
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Our squad has better depth than many teams. Hilarious the levels people go to in order to defend this. It might apply if we were 7th or 8th, we aren't, we are a team in relegation form set for 48 points across a season. Teams with a fraction of our resources who are questioning whether they keep their coach are a handful of points from us. We have been beyond abysmal.

An injury cloud .. he was absolutely fine. My argument was that you said something that wasn't true. Just like when you said we should have beaten Palace and Brighton which was also not true.

It's a stupid question because I'm not a football manager. I imagine the next coach will mix up our build-up phases a bit, get us kicking long to Solanke more, tighten things up, make us less predictable. I don't know because we haven't hired him yet. Almost anything will be an improvement over looking every bit a team just pushing ahead of Crystal Palace.

It's embarrassing that we have seen this long a period of being poor under Ange and we are still having the same conversations. I was saying these things about him at the end of last season when we had all our players. I was saying it about him at the start of this season when we had all our players. I'm saying it now. The injury crisis is just yet another convenient excuse for him being fundamentally a not good enough coach at Premier League level.
 
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