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Wing play at Tottenham. Why do we persist?

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gibbs131

Just saw a shocking stat from Squawka. We attempted a MASSIVE amount of crosses vs Southampton. 33 crosses in total. 3 of them found their man. 2 of them were corners.

1 cross out of 31 crosses from the wing reached their target.

Why are we still playing with wingers and wingbacks after the evidence that is piling up this season?
 
gibbs131 said:
Just saw a shocking stat from Squawka. We attempted a MASSIVE amount of crosses vs Southampton. 33 crosses in total. 3 of them found their man. 2 of them were corners.

1 cross out of 31 crosses from the wing reached their target.

Why are we still playing with wingers and wingbacks after the evidence that is piling up this season?
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Perhaps we need better wingers more so than changing our tactics
 
ArcspacE said:
Perhaps we need better wingers more so than changing our tactics
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I agree up to a point. But we had the second best winger in the world, Lennon was getting assists, Walker playing well etc and we still suffered from goal droughts from Ade and Defoe. I think wingplay in general is being targeted by modern tactics who see it as a soft option to counter/attack teams down the flanks.
 
The problem with our crossing is that the ball comes in too late, allowing defenders to be set facing away from their own goal when making clearances.

When we used to attack quickly, the crosses came in with our strikers moving towards the ball and defenders facing their own goal, good things happen when it's like that.
 
Burko said:
The problem with our crossing is that the ball comes in too late, allowing defenders to be set facing away from their own goal when making clearances.

When we used to attack quickly, the crosses came in with our strikers moving towards the ball and defenders facing their own goal, good things happen when it's like that.
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That is true, the slow build up allows a parked bus/predictable play. But on top of that, the people crossing are not accurate. It's a scattergun approach. The same can be said for their shooting ability.
 
Steed_Train said:
Trouble is our wingers run up the wing, then get completely isolated so just smash a hopeful ball into a "danger area", and there's no one within 10 yards of it

Just highlights the complete lack of tactical nous.
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This. And,

Burko said:
The problem with our crossing is that the ball comes in too late, allowing defenders to be set facing away from their own goal when making clearances.

When we used to attack quickly, the crosses came in with our strikers moving towards the ball and defenders facing their own goal, good things happen when it's like that.
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this.

The problem extends far deeper than the individual qualities of the wingers, it starts and ends with the midfield play. I'm glad this has been brought up though including the stat, as it's exemplary why all the people complaining that we lack width is just nothing short of absurd. We almost never attack through the middle, which would free up some major space for our wingers to provide better crosses or move centrally to create.
 
Its very annoying because you hardly ever feel a cross from Lennon or Townsend will do anything. Part of it is ability, our wingers are not the best crossers, Townsend never looks up and Lennon can't cross very well, it is also the fact we have Soldado up front who is never going to trouble a big centre back. If we had midfield runners it might compensate as runners are hard for defenders to track, Paulinho has not had a great season but when he has played he has at least provided some options in the box.

If we are to persist with wing play we need a stiker or two who love crosses, Lukaku, Benteke and Remy for example and our midfielders need to make runs that trouble defenders. Problem is why are any of our stikers or midfielders going to bust a gut getting in the box for Lennon's crosses.

A lot of team, particularly the bigger teams don't even use wingers that much and given the strength of our middle, wingers may not be the future of our club.

Non-wing midfielders: Eriksen, Chadli, Sandro, Bentaleb, Capoue, Holtby, Siggy, Carrol, Lamela, Paulinho

Out and out Wingers: Townsend, Lennon

Also if we play a high line, pressing game rather than a counter attacking game that we had under Redknapp there will be naturally less space behind the opposition defense which kind of blunts the value of our wingers.
 
Our midfield play is too slow and ponderous so the wingers don't get the ball early enough. Lennon doesn't try and beat a man as often as he used to and a lot of his crosses are shite. Townsend can cross when he wants to but usually cuts inside and hits it into row z. There are times when crosses are put in but there's only one man in the box.

Walker being injured means there is no overlap on the right hand side as we currently have Graham Naughton out there. Rose does get forward but his crossing is often shite.
 
Whilst I agree the % of successful crosses we are experiencing is poor, it doesn't tell you who took the cross i.e. both Soldado and Ade are often found out wide and are the ones putting the crosses in, my point here is you are using the stat in isolation to beat up a winger and fullback when a % of the crosses made are not taken by them.

Also, by isolating the number of successful crosses, or lack of, you are failing to take into account the 2nd phase following the cross, e.g. Did the keeper/Defender fail to clear it and it dropped to a Spurs man. A cross can cause panic in the box if not dealt with by opposition hence the phrase "putting it in the mixer". Just look at our deffending over the past few weeks alone, I do believe every goal we have conceeded has been down to us not defending a cross or a long ball. The Chelsea and Southampton game will show their stats as failed cross but they scored from a failed cross.

What are your expectations? I ask this as lets take a look at the best attacking team in the Prem, Liverpool.
Liv vs Southampton (3-0) 8 crosses from 25
Liv vs Man U (3-0) 4 crosses from 18
Liv vs Cardiff (3-6) 5 crossess from 25
Liv vs Sun (2-1) 2 crossess from 15
Whilst better than ours they are not that much better. But whatching them attack it's the pace and the numbers they commit to the attack that is their weapon, not how successful the cross is.
 
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Guido said:
Whilst I agree the % of successful crosses we are experiencing is poor, it doesn't tell you who took the cross i.e. both Soldado and Ade are often found out wide and are the ones putting the crosses in, my point here is you are using the stat in isolation to beat up a winger and fullback when a % of the crosses made are not taken by them.

Also, by isolating the number of successful crosses, or lack of, you are failing to take into account the 2nd phase following the cross, e.g. Did the keeper/Defender fail to clear it and it dropped to a Spurs man. A cross can cause panic in the box if not dealt with by opposition hence the phrase "putting it in the mixer". Just look at our deffending over the past few weeks alone, I do believe every goal we have conceeded has been down to us not defending a cross or a long ball. The Chelsea and Southampton game will show their stats as failed cross but they scored from a failed cross.

What are your expectations? I ask this as lets take a look at the best attacking team in the Prem, Liverpool.
Liv vs Southampton (3-0) 8 crosses from 25
Liv vs Man U (3-0) 4 crosses from 18
Liv vs Cardiff (3-6) 5 crossess from 25
Liv vs Sun (2-1) 2 crossess from 15
Whislt better than ours they are not that much better. But whatching them attack it's the pace and the numbers they commit to the attack that is their weapon, not how successful the cross is.
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Yeh our best crossers seem to be the likes of Eriksen not our wingers, which IMO means we don't always have to play wingers, our players are intelligent enough to find space themselves and if its on the wing they can go out wide and cross, top attacking teams have players who simply find space, if it happens to be out wide they cross, if its in the middle they play through balls. As long as we start to vary our attacking methods during a game and don't make it obvious we should be alright.
 
Guido said:
Whilst I agree the % of successful crosses we are experiencing is poor, it doesn't tell you who took the cross i.e. both Soldado and Ade are often found out wide and are the ones putting the crosses in, my point here is you are using the stat in isolation to beat up a winger and fullback when a % of the crosses made are not taken by them.

Also, by isolating the number of successful crosses, or lack of, you are failing to take into account the 2nd phase following the cross, e.g. Did the keeper/Defender fail to clear it and it dropped to a Spurs man. A cross can cause panic in the box if not dealt with by opposition hence the phrase "putting it in the mixer". Just look at our deffending over the past few weeks alone, I do believe every goal we have conceeded has been down to us not defending a cross or a long ball. The Chelsea and Southampton game will show their stats as failed cross but they scored from a failed cross.

What are your expectations? I ask this as lets take a look at the best attacking team in the Prem, Liverpool.
Liv vs Southampton (3-0) 8 crosses from 25
Liv vs Man U (3-0) 4 crosses from 18
Liv vs Cardiff (3-6) 5 crossess from 25
Liv vs Sun (2-1) 2 crossess from 15
Whilst better than ours they are not that much better. But whatching them attack it's the pace and the numbers they commit to the attack that is their weapon, not how successful the cross is.
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You asked what are my expectations: They are for attacking/creative players to play to the strength of our strikeforce. Hoofing in crosses or long balls for Defoe or Soldado pretty much sums up how clueless some of our players are.

Players who tend to score at this club seem to get a lot of them from their own ability. They make the goals themselves. Things like the interplay between Soldado and Eriksen don't happen often enough from our wingers and overlapping wingbacks. My expectations are better decision making in the final third.

Our wingplay over the years has come hand in hand with record goal droughts from our strikers and it's not a coincidence. Crouch, Pav, Bent, Defoe, Ade etc all had goal droughts with wingplay as our main policy. Keane's first period, most of his goals came from a cracking relationship with Berbs. Take Berbs away and you have Keane II whos goals dipped.

So even if we have good wingers, there always seems to be a negative impact on strikers and the ability to get smash and grabbed by minnows because we can be soft down the flanks.

I'm not just beating up our current wingers/wingbacks, I am also questioning wing play in general when it comes to the speed/brutality of the prem. Lamela cost us 30 million. We put him on the wing and he was a disaster. I don't think signing good players on the wing will be the answer. Bale was as good as it gets, and we still had goal droughts from strikers and midfielders.

It was pretty to watch, but I think we still have that ability to entertain with the Ades, Lamelas and Eriksens. We just need an overhaul on their roles and where the attacks are generated.
 
Yorkshire_Spurs said:
What we need to do is score a little more and maybe concede a little less.

Tim Sherwood doesn't have a clue...
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Speaking of Sherwood, his mantra could be the problem. He said he wants defenders to defend, strikers to attack and midfielders to do a bit of both. This has led to some headless chickens in the middle of the park (and wingbacks) to see if they stick or twist when joining attacks.

We have great midfielders, but IMO they are not suited for total football. We should play to our strengths (literally).

----------------Ade---------------
--Eriksen--Paulinho--Lamela--
----Capoue-------TheBeast----

Surround Eriksen and Lamela with strength so they can have free roles with less water carrying.

Alt:

-----------------Ade---------------
--Eriksen--Dembele--Soldado--

I'm fed up of this sad, withdrawn faux DM role given to Dembele. He should be beating people in the box, not in his own half. We need a Paulinho or Dembele to solve the parked bus problem that Eriksen, Holtby, Defoe, Lennon, Townsend were all bouncing off under AVB. Imagine Paulinho rampaging into the box if he has not been running miles to cover for wingbacks, wingers etc. He, Dembele, Bentaleb and even the beast have at times looked like dogshit because the boiler room is like a ball and chain around your creativity and attacks.

Sandro and Capoue should be swallowing souls in the middle of the park. IMO Vlad will also be amazing in that role. Paulinho, Bentaleb or Dembele need to be a base/a strong spine to support attacks. They won't get goals and assists like Eriksen will, but we have to have more presence in and around the box. As it stands, we are sometimes literally crossing to nobody because Dembele or Pauly won't make that run.

There are drawbacks..The team in general will have less pace, but it the Roses and Walkers are not constantly in the oppositions half the lack of pace will be less of an issue because we will be more solid at the back to deal with counters and breakdowns. As it stands you have Walker, Sandro and Rose sliding in like maniacs because we got cut to shreds and the ball was played into areas that are supposed to have left and right sided defenders.
 
gibbs131 said:
You asked what are my expectations: They are for attacking/creative players to play to the strength of our strikeforce. Hoofing in crosses or long balls for Defoe or Soldado pretty much sums up how clueless some of our players are.
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But all our three goals we scored came as a direct result of hoofing in crosses (e.g. incomplete crosses) (x2 for the 1st & 2nd) and long ball (x1 for the 3rd). In fact so did Southampton's goals.

My question to you about expectations was/is How many completed crosses is good enough for you, if 1/33 is not good enough what is good enough? You brought the stat up to beat your drum so you must have an answer.
 
Guido said:
But all our three goals we scored came as a direct result of hoofing in crosses (e.g. incomplete crosses) (x2 for the 1st & 2nd) and long ball (x1 for the 3rd). In fact so did Southampton's goals.

My question to you about expectations was/is How many completed crosses is good enough for you, if 1/33 is not good enough what is good enough? You brought the stat up to beat your drum so you must have an answer.
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The stat you used had better crossing % than us. You answered it for me.

You still have to use all of the pitch with my suggested lineup. With the difference that the wingbacks will NOT join attacks etc. Look at my suggested lineups above. It's not like crosses are not going to be banned under a different system is it?

Regarding that game/goals, I already said the linkup that Soldado and Eriksen had was not typical of the season. Plus the strength I mentioned to surround these players with was seen with Chadli who would also be perfect for my suggested shape.

Speaking of crosses. IMO they are VITAL to games. Man Utd won the title last year because of their returns from dead balls, corners etc. You are not going to convert many of them when almost a half of your outfield are Roses, Lennons, Eriksens, Defoes etc. If we take away Townsend, Lennon and Rose, that alone will instantly help our chances scoring from corners and dead balls. Our scoring from corners is a huge problem at the club.
 
On a side note much as I hate Woolwich I have noticed we have become a bit like Woolwich.

1. We get smashed by all the big teams and beat the little ones
2 we have a dozen good midfielders but hardly enough forwards and just enough defenders
3 our injury list is a joke this season, theirs is almost as bad
4 we sell our top players and spend the money on 'promising' kids.
5 we both have great expectation only for it to be dashed.
6 we both play pressing game with a dangerously high line.

Hopefully we don't end up as Woolwich lite.
 
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