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Individual Goal Bonus's

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I was just listening the Statsbomb pod, and they were discussing individual goal (and assist etc) pay bonuses for players, and how they generally think they are not a great thing as they reward and encourage individuals for making decisions that don't always benefit the team, and that they felt collective bonuses are a better thing in general.

This tied in with a conversation I was having on here last week about Son and Kane making greedy decisions (I think in the Alli thread with Park Lane Mark Twain Park Lane Mark Twain ) - now we know that Spurs pay individual bonuses, and in Kane's case it was pretty huge I think, I wonder if Son is on the same?

But on a more general basis, it got me thinking, and I tend to agree with the Statsbomb guys (Ted Knutson and James Yorke - who happens to be a big Spurs fan and posts on SC) that this isn't really the most conducive way to encourage a collective mentality or performance.

Would be better to have defensive and offensive bonus's shared out on a collective group, basis, no?

Could this explain some of the stupidly selfish decisions that we have seen last year from Kane and Son?
 
bus-conductor said:
I was just listening the Statsbomb pod, and they were discussing individual goal (and assist etc) pay bonuses for players, and how they generally think they are not a great thing as they reward and encourage individuals for making decisions that don't always benefit the team, and that they felt collective bonuses are a better thing in general.

This tied in with a conversation I was having on here last week about Son and Kane making greedy decisions (I think in the Alli thread with Park Lane Mark Twain Park Lane Mark Twain ) - now we know that Spurs pay individual bonuses, and in Kane's case it was pretty huge I think, I wonder if Son is on the same?

But on a more general basis, it got me thinking, and I tend to agree with the Statsbomb guys (Ted Knutson and James Yorke - who happens to be a big Spurs fan and posts on SC) that this isn't really the most conducive way to encourage a collective mentality or performance.

Would be better to have defensive and offensive bonus's shared out on a collective group, basis, no?

Could this explain some of the stupidly selfish decisions that we have seen last year from Kane and Son?
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Doubt it Son and Kane are clearly men of integrity , I just think goalscorers are selfish by nature and certain incidents expose the fact as clear as day , you'll see it at all levels of football.
 
bus-conductor said:
I was just listening the Statsbomb pod, and they were discussing individual goal (and assist etc) pay bonuses for players, and how they generally think they are not a great thing as they reward and encourage individuals for making decisions that don't always benefit the team, and that they felt collective bonuses are a better thing in general.

This tied in with a conversation I was having on here last week about Son and Kane making greedy decisions (I think in the Alli thread with Park Lane Mark Twain Park Lane Mark Twain ) - now we know that Spurs pay individual bonuses, and in Kane's case it was pretty huge I think, I wonder if Son is on the same?

But on a more general basis, it got me thinking, and I tend to agree with the Statsbomb guys (Ted Knutson and James Yorke - who happens to be a big Spurs fan and posts on SC) that this isn't really the most conducive way to encourage a collective mentality or performance.

Would be better to have defensive and offensive bonus's shared out on a collective group, basis, no?

Could this explain some of the stupidly selfish decisions that we have seen last year from Kane and Son?
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Click to shrink...
We've got no idea of how the bonuses are paid out at Spurs. For all we know our players are compensated via a collective (Strikers are always given a goal bonus as part and parcel of their package).

Our shots that we take is a strategy rather than a bonus related thing IMO, since the day Poch rocked up he got us to shoot more, we are right up there as one of the most prolific shooters in the League and have been for a number of years. Kane's individual stats are one of the highest in the World comparable with Messi and Ronaldo etc..
 
If you're greedy you're more likely to fail than succeed and ultimately you'll be dropped so there's a strong incentive to be a team player if you want to be picked at all to the team.

p.s. fuck SC.

Edit: that is true for any striker with lower than 50% conversion rate, after that point there's no incentive really but a striker with that conversion rate would be justified in being greedy
 
100% it's a bad idea - perfectly epitomised by the selfish shits I had playing as strikers when I ran youth teams at grass roots level. Always bloody shooting from impossible angles when they had team mates in acres of space just because mum/dad/granddad/nan/aunty or whoever promised them a fiver for every goal they scored! I did suggest people should reward their children more for an assist than for scoring but that did not go down too well cos everyone wants their little Jonny getting all the glory.
I would like to think highly paid professional footballers would be above such incentives but ultimately money talks!:levyeyes:

EDIT - that said in defence of Kane I think his main motivation is a hunger for goals and mixed with considerable self belief he will tend to shoot if he thinks he can score, and don't they say all the best strikers are utterly selfish?
 
bus-conductor said:
I was just listening the Statsbomb pod, and they were discussing individual goal (and assist etc) pay bonuses for players, and how they generally think they are not a great thing as they reward and encourage individuals for making decisions that don't always benefit the team, and that they felt collective bonuses are a better thing in general.

This tied in with a conversation I was having on here last week about Son and Kane making greedy decisions (I think in the Alli thread with Park Lane Mark Twain Park Lane Mark Twain ) - now we know that Spurs pay individual bonuses, and in Kane's case it was pretty huge I think, I wonder if Son is on the same?

But on a more general basis, it got me thinking, and I tend to agree with the Statsbomb guys (Ted Knutson and James Yorke - who happens to be a big Spurs fan and posts on SC) that this isn't really the most conducive way to encourage a collective mentality or performance.

Would be better to have defensive and offensive bonus's shared out on a collective group, basis, no?

Could this explain some of the stupidly selfish decisions that we have seen last year from Kane and Son?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

But by that logIf if you split it between defensive and offensive then the defensive team won’t be so quick to play those long balls upfield or take any chances that lead to quick breaks.

I doubt an extra 10k or something for a goal bonus is anything much to them, after tax it’ll be 5k.
Probably just goes in the loose change pot
 
There are all sorts of performance bonuses. Extra for playing which sometimes a Manager rewards by bringing on a player as sub in the last few seconds. Most important is the win bonus which needs to be higher than a goal bonus, so that IF a player is selfish and shoots when a colleague is in a better position he risks his win bonus if he misses. Generally players are more selfish if the game is won. Yes I think there should be bonuses but if any player was deemed to put them before the team performance then the Manager would soon drop him.
 
I think football is an instinctive sport where you don't have a lot of time to think. If Kane is through on goal with Son beside him I doubt he's thinking, "I can pocket 50 grand here, I'm gonna shoot".

I've not seen many decisions which look suspicious. Kane and Son are both selfish, but I think that's just their nature.
 
Jayc1 said:
I think football is an instinctive sport where you don't have a lot of time to think. If Kane is through on goal with Son beside him I doubt he's thinking, "I can pocket 50 grand here, I'm gonna shoot".

I've not seen many decisions which look suspicious. Kane and Son are both selfish, but I think that's just their nature.
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This

Almost impossible theory to quantify. You'd need a huge amount of data to even begin most of which is probably near impossible to attain.

I think that some players just have that habit of immediately making space for a shot and Son and Kane are both massive examples and why they're both prolific. It's more confidence in their ability and having a picture of how they're going to make space and finish as opposed to anything financial
 
When I played with shit team mates I'd almost never pass when in shooting range. My thinking being that the %chance of them being able to control the ball, get off a shot and score were lower than mine being able to score from a more difficult position.
If you are as lethal a striker as Kane, even if you are playing with other internationals there's still a justification for why he is a bit selfish. When he's on form the odds are always in his favour. If he turned into a Teddy Sheringham like striker I'd be very disappointed
 
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Ive said this before elsewhere, but I don't think there's a justification for being selfish when a team mate is in a much (and I mean much) better percentage position to score. I understand that occasionally it's totally instinctive, and I get that, don't want to take that away, but it doesn't excuse everything or every instance.

And people saying "I doubt Kane/Son etc thinks about the extra 10k a goal might bring him" that's bollocks, and I'm positive that behavioural scientists would back me up on this, but it's very, very easy to change thought patterns with incentivisation, even lower level, let alone massive inducements like thousands of pounds, when you start planting thousands of pounds in bonuses into players minds, that's going to radically altar their thought process in quite a short space of time and will almost certainly have an impact on their natural instincts. If it didn't, what would be the point of it ?

Surely they wouldn't be human if that didn't enter the consciousness during games, and whilst they might not have it in the forefront of their brains as they are presented with a chance, the fact that it's been floating around their conscience before hand, may well consciously or subconsciously effect their thought processes.

The guys on Statsbomb were quoting another guy's research, and just on a basic level, I agreed with the basic premise that on balance it's detrimental to the collective ethic to offer individual performance rewards, I remember the one time, many years ago, I worked at a company where they introduced this as an incentive it just created this very toxic environment.

Why should a player receive an individual bonus reward for something that has almost certainly involved a group of players?

Wouldn't it better to have group achievement bonuses? For the collective ethos and team spirit?
 
bus-conductor said:
Ive said this before elsewhere, but I don't think there's a justification for being selfish when a team mate is in a much (and I mean much) better percentage position to score. I understand that occasionally it's totally instinctive, and I get that, don't want to take that away, but it doesn't excuse everything or every instance.

And people saying "I doubt Kane/Son etc thinks about the extra 10k a goal might bring him" that's bollocks, and I'm positive that behavioural scientists would back me up on this, but it's very, very easy to change thought patterns with incentivisation, even lower level, let alone massive inducements like thousands of pounds, when you start planting thousands of pounds in bonuses into players minds, that's going to radically altar their thought process in quite a short space of time and will almost certainly have an impact on their natural instincts. If it didn't, what would be the point of it ?

Surely they wouldn't be human if that didn't enter the consciousness during games, and whilst they might not have it in the forefront of their brains as they are presented with a chance, the fact that it's been floating around their conscience before hand, may well consciously or subconsciously effect their thought processes.

The guys on Statsbomb were quoting another guy's research, and just on a basic level, I agreed with the basic premise that on balance it's detrimental to the collective ethic to offer individual performance rewards, I remember the one time, many years ago, I worked at a company where they introduced this as an incentive it just created this very toxic environment.

Why should a player receive an individual bonus reward for something that has almost certainly involved a group of players?

Wouldn't it better to have group achievement bonuses? For the collective ethos and team spirit?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The thing is bus-conductor bus-conductor , I really don't think Son or Kane are any more selfish as other players that play in similar positions to them. Both push the 20 goal a season mark, there or thereabouts and if you go back 5-10 years ago anyone that got you 20 odd/+ goals a season would be a real gem in the team. I find you a very in depth poster and you definitely have valid points but when it comes to the high expectation you have on our players to not just have a shot whenever they get half a chance to is a little bit to heavy for my liking.

You've got a brain &I without doubt you back up your views with good debates but I honestly don't see how players can't have a shoot on sight mentality with how balls swerve/ how many goalkeepers make mistakes etc. I'd personally rather see Sonny have a little more flair than see him shoot less. Sonny & Harry's shooting or the frequency in which they do so is the least of my concerns when it comes to their genuine strengths & weaknesses IMO
 
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