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Management What proves managerial competence?

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Notabadsquad

A serious question because it tends to somewhat beat me if I am being entirely honest.

I have my ideas, but with all things being equal, just how do you make the assessment, on good, bad or indifferent?

Was Pochettino for example the beneficiary of having some excellent players at his disposal or do we really believe he would be doing so much better with our current squad? Flip that round and would Postecoglou be so much worse with the players Pochettino had by comparison? And if yes/no, why?

I am genuinely intrigued, because at present, I look at some of the likely managerial options and think which one should it be,because they will definitely provide that, whatever that may be.

Baffling.
 
I firmly believe that our squad has the potential to be very good. Coaching and team tactics make quite a difference - and sadly under Ange the difference has resulted in disaster.
The same players under a different manager could be moulded into a really successful team, imho.
 
Notabadsquad said:
A serious question because it tends to somewhat beat me if I am being entirely honest.

I have my ideas, but with all things being equal, just how do you make the assessment, on good, bad or indifferent?

Was Pochettino for example the beneficiary of having some excellent players at his disposal or do we really believe he would be doing so much better with our current squad? Flip that round and would Postecoglou be so much worse with the players Pochettino had by comparison? And if yes/no, why?

I am genuinely intrigued, because at present, I look at some of the likely managerial options and think which one should it be,because they will definitely provide that, whatever that may be.

Baffling.
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Do they improve players? The key question to ask.

You see teams where one or two step up a level.
Or where players do it occasionally.

Good / great managers get the whole team to step up a level consistently.

Make them become more than the sum of their parts on paper.

And I’m not following our choices. I don’t watch enough spurs football let alone taking the time out to watch other clubs. So I’m happy just to wait and see what happens next and who we get in.

I knew diddly squat about Ange when we got him, knew very little about Poch too. And I think the next managerial appointment will probably be the same.
 
Notabadsquad said:
A serious question because it tends to somewhat beat me if I am being entirely honest.

I have my ideas, but with all things being equal, just how do you make the assessment, on good, bad or indifferent?

Was Pochettino for example the beneficiary of having some excellent players at his disposal or do we really believe he would be doing so much better with our current squad? Flip that round and would Postecoglou be so much worse with the players Pochettino had by comparison? And if yes/no, why?

I am genuinely intrigued, because at present, I look at some of the likely managerial options and think which one should it be,because they will definitely provide that, whatever that may be.

Baffling.
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Click to shrink...
Improving individuals, making the team look like a coherent unit, becoming difficult to beat. If a manager hasnt done or improved those within 18 months or if those things have got worse then they are not good enough/ incompetent.
 
Notabadsquad said:
A serious question because it tends to somewhat beat me if I am being entirely honest.

I have my ideas, but with all things being equal, just how do you make the assessment, on good, bad or indifferent?

Was Pochettino for example the beneficiary of having some excellent players at his disposal or do we really believe he would be doing so much better with our current squad? Flip that round and would Postecoglou be so much worse with the players Pochettino had by comparison? And if yes/no, why?

I am genuinely intrigued, because at present, I look at some of the likely managerial options and think which one should it be,because they will definitely provide that, whatever that may be.

Baffling.
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Click to shrink...
There is no concrete way to ever be sure. Its opinion based and everyone has an opinion these days.

Pep is the greatest manager I've ever seen but he's always had the best players to play to suit his style. Now he's going through his first major blip as a manager and looks like he has no plan B because he never needed one before.

I think managers tend to be overrated and get too much credit when their teams are doing well and visa versa once their teams do badly. We live in an extremely reactionary world. Pep changed football and now there is a huge emphasis in play style and putting style and performance over grinding out results and playing badly. Coaches like Mourinho have been nearly fazed out as they don't have the same possession based structures and style.

Mourinho is a great example too. Brilliant manager. His teams would go to places, park the buss and grind out a 0-0 draw away from home. He was notorious for this, especially at Inter. If the game ends 0-0 or Inter nick a 1-0 win, then the media label it a "Mourinho masterclass". However, if his team concede, then they'd often lose without have a shot on goal all game, and in them games Mourinho would be slaughtered and called clueless. We saw this recently with Arteta. They were going to the Etihad and playing for draws, when he got them it would be called a masterclass. When he didn't get them they'd be blasted. Fine margins between a masterclass and being totally clueless.

Our 3-2 win away at the Etihad 3 years ago is another great example. For me, Harry Kane put in one of the greatest ever Premier league performances that day and single handily won us the game! We basically parked the bus that day and just hoped to get lucky. They had 21 shots, we had 6. We were just so clinical with Kane that we won the game. People still refer to that as a Conte masterclass.
 
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As a fanbase we demand more than managerial competence, don't we? We want wins delivered with attacking flair. It's achieving both that continues to prove to be a bit tricky. Most recently we saw it with Poch, which is why a lot of people (me included) want him back. It's like 'unfinished business'.
 
Under poch era everything was a well oiled machine. Players being developed, modern style, paul mitchell as sporting director, smashing teams. Even had McKenna in youth set up. That's what I want back at club. It's been completely dismantled and fubar since poch left.
 
People can spout any waffle they like but 99% of us are primarily interested in winning games.

And tbh at Premier League level it’s the one metric that counts. You can play great football and blood youngsters but if you don’t get 3 points that game goes down as a fail.

Fail too many times and people think you are a shit coach. Win enough times they will think you are a good one.
 
I think in the most part it’s about implementation and progression.

You need to be able to show that you were at least partly responsible for the effect on the team that comes in since you take over (in a positive way). There are levels to this as well.

Mourinho is a good example of being a bit of a mentality monster, he usually creates seige mentality, is against them and gets people to fight for him. This is why he can lead little Porto to Champions league glory for example - the downside is often boring football depending on your tastes.

Equally, Dyche and Allardyve are good managers because they get the basics right, they set you up as solid and dependable, and do the simple things where you may not be qualifying for Europe but if you’re a club who are often in danger of relegation, they can normally get enough out of you with chosen trusted players that you end up being more likely to stay up then go down. It comes of course with the caveat that most don’t want them at their clubs because there are limits to what doing the basics well can achieve.

Pep just sort of speaks for himself, and is good at getting high end players to perform, but I also think he NEEDS that higher end - give him a team like Brentford and I’m not sure how well he would do.

Essentially you need something you can implement that is “if I’m not here, this doesn’t happen” in nature, and by the positivity of that thing working, you can show you have positive benefit.

Progression is then where the top managers are, can you do the above, more importantly can you do it regularly? For Pep et al it’s about can you still motivate top players to go again the next year and not let standards drop? For the managers who do well at the lower end, can you have your best players sold from underneath you but maintain position in the table the following year again.

It’s about showing your worth over a consistent period and people knowing you were the cause for it for me.
 
It's not hard to see why many people would welcome Pochettino's return at this stage. Last season he turned Chelsea from a complete shambles into a cohesive attacking force, brought about the emergence of Cole Palmer and got them back into the top 6 after the horrific Lampard and Potter period. One has to ask whether it is merely coincidence that the best results Maresca has had for Chelsea came in the earliest part of his tenure, and the longer he has the squad, the worse their performances get. There is clearly still a very high quality coach there in Pochettino, you can't really argue with the results. People bringing up his time at PSG as a failure, well then every coach they have hired since the Qataris came in is also a failure, and it's a rather prestigious list.
Had he stayed at the Chavs and built a legacy there it would have been very hard ever to revive his image as a Spurs icon, but the fact he fucked it off after 1 season and has pretty much said because it didn't feel right to him (I can think of no sporting reason why a manager who quantifiably massively improved the team over his first season and had them back into European contention would be sacked, as well as finally making Enzo Fernandez look like being worth half of what they paid for him), gives him the leeway to come back. If he'd be willing to immediately fuck the US off for a return to us in the summer it would only make me even fonder of the idea.
 
A lot of it is also just timing; the right person, at the right point in their career, in the right job.

Which is why Pochettino has no guarantee of working out with us a second time around.
 
Don Pedro said:
Pep is the greatest manager I've ever seen but he's always had the best players to play to suit his style. Now he's going through his first major blip as a manager and looks like he has no plan B because he never needed one before.
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My friend regularly went up to see him in his early days at City.
He would come back saying how Pep works individuals hard on how he needs them to play. And some needs a lot more help than others. How English players tend to lack game knowledge like the Spanish ones.

He would always sign good players. But they still need to learn / be coached.

And personally I think he’s pushed this current squad to extremes. And maybe himself.
But He’s reinvented his team and style of play enough to say he has a plan b.

They have never been afraid of scoring Wimbledon type goals. However much the media likes to present otherwise and say he is purely Tiki taka.

Our old WhatsApp group I often referred to them as the Spanish Wimbledon. Can clearly remember a goal at Wembley they scored v us that was pure route one. And then sending sarcastic “Spanish football rules” messages :)
Well not that clearly as I don’t know who scored it!!
 
Notabadsquad said:
A serious question because it tends to somewhat beat me if I am being entirely honest.

I have my ideas, but with all things being equal, just how do you make the assessment, on good, bad or indifferent?

Was Pochettino for example the beneficiary of having some excellent players at his disposal or do we really believe he would be doing so much better with our current squad? Flip that round and would Postecoglou be so much worse with the players Pochettino had by comparison? And if yes/no, why?

I am genuinely intrigued, because at present, I look at some of the likely managerial options and think which one should it be,because they will definitely provide that, whatever that may be.

Baffling.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Competent is having a squad where it should be.
Incompetent is having it below.
Exceptional is getting more out of it than the individuals suggest.

3 names in the PL right now.

Postecoglou
Arteta
Iraola

1 of each. Where does each one rank.
 
The problem with the so called system managers is that this clouds the issue as they have a way of playing that requires a specific squad type. Pep for example I think would be a disaster at this club, we would be not much better than Ange getting hit on the counter each game with players lacking the technical skills to carry out his instructions. If we remove these and look at most others.

1 do they get the most of out the team
2 Do they improve players
3 can they adapt tactically

Pochettino is the best manager under ENIC for player improve by a country mile, almost every player improved often dramatically under him. Harry was probably the best at mixing up tactically, he just had a great sense of how to set up against opponents. Both of them for me showed decent competence.
 
Improving players to fit a team identity / style BUT also having the flexibility and skill to mould that identity to the players available.

A lot happens behind the scenes with the players that don’t play, that never make the step-up, that are moved on before they become stale etc.. in the Prem it’s also skewed because there’s something of an obsession with buying, rather than developing players so you have coaches (Poch and his ilk), managers (Ange, Conte, Jose) but then there’s the holy grail of those that can do both or have a team around them to do both (Pep, Klopp, Redknapp -thinking back to Venables and Robson in the olden days).

IMO - for Spurs to be truly successful we need one that can do both.
 
As previous posts show I am no technical expert but I would imagine instructing your full backs where to position themselves to nullify attacks would help.

This has been our Achilles heel since dopey took over and he has not addressed it. Pure incompetence and arrogance.

If he sorted this one issue he would be looking at a contract extension
 
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