Harry Kane

[Radical Rei]

I haven't disagreed with your post largely because I have no idea of your age and therefore on what you are basing your statements. Your comment about defending being atrocious 'back then' is quite true. Atrocious in the sense that it was cynically brutal at times with no quarter given. Career threatening tackles by people renowned for being the 'hard men' of soccer

Jimmy Greaves at his best would have coped extremely well with today's defenders and to suggest 'modern football training' might have been needed for one of the most naturally gifted strikers the World has ever seen is humorous to say the least. I have had the privilege of watching Greaves and Kane play, both different in style but equally effective at putting the ball into the net.

I totally refute your questioning of his record because of the ' level of defending at that time'. It's an insult to the player and completely wrong. We shall agree to disagree but please do not try to in any way diminish or tarnish the goal scoring feats of an absolute Spurs and England legend.

I'm not old enough to have ever watched Greaves week in week out although I don't think age is a necessity for judgement. One could be equally blinded by a sense of nostalgia.

Going back and looking at statistics from the 40s through to the 60s high scoring draws like 5-5 or 6-6 as well as huge 12-0 victories weren't compltley uncommon.

I get you point but I don't one should equate the brutality of tackles to good defending if you go back and watch some of Pele's highlights you can see how easy it was for him to literally walk through a defense.

Look at the state of the defending in the clip below, Messi would be scoring 8 goals a day.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1100522727864193025/pu/vid/638x360/WXAs-OA3lgjgpN-c.mp4?tag=6

 

[paddy spur]

stolen -

Bobby Charlton scored 5 of his 49 v Luxembourg (3 came in a 9-0 victory), 16 v the other home nations, hat-tricks in an 8-0 friendly v Mexico and an 8-1 friendly v USA, another one v USA in a 10-0 win

I may be wrong here but my memory of the home nations was that they preety competive matches. I am sure some one will throw a pile of stats to prove me wrong but england going to glasgow was always a very hard place to play.

 

[KaneDomBadBoy]

lol, what are you talking about.?

There's plenty of advanced data available now and has been for years - being used by both clubs and pundits / fans in the know.

Expected goals and assists, PAdj Defensive Stats, Total Shots Ratio (or shot dominance) etc... etc....

The days of % Pass Completion and "goals and assists" as the only markers to determining a players form are long gone!

Plus most stats nerd would tell you the 800 odd mins that Llorente played last season (compared to Kane's near 4000), probably isn't a big enough sample size to gain anything that meaningful from it.

Here is a good article:

Is Harry Kane still England’s best striker? - StatsBomb | Data Champions

%

statsbomb.com

TLDR - Kane’s attacking output has declined at a faster rate than Spurs overall in the last season.

I have no doubt though - that in a much more direct and defined forward role his numbers will get back up there.

Thanks for this. Puts things into perspective. I think that article hits on what I was eluding to. What really annoys me is when people say "XYZ striker is the best in the world because they've scored X times in X games." The media really needs to highlight advanced stats/analytics more often. Too often they only show goals/apps which distorts reality.

Quote from the article sums it up:
"Perception can be a curious thing in football. Through his good finishing, penalties and distribution of goals that has enabled him to avoid any prolonged “dry spells”, Kane has maintained an image as one of Europe’s elite strikers despite no longer having the numbers to back it up. This can’t last forever; eventually, Kane will need to close the gap in terms of taking good shots in order to avoid Abraham succeeding him as England’s best striker."

 

[Borodin55]

I'm not old enough to have ever watched Greaves week in week out although I don't think age is a necessity for judgement. One could be equally blinded by a sense of nostalgia.

Going back and looking at statistics from the 40s through to the 60s high scoring draws like 5-5 or 6-6 as well as huge 12-0 victories weren't compltley uncommon.

I get you point but I don't one should equate the brutality of tackles to good defending if you go back and watch some of Pele's highlights you can see how easy it was for him to literally walk through a defense.

Look at the state of the defending in the clip below, Messi would be scoring 8 goals a day.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1100522727864193025/pu/vid/638x360/WXAs-OA3lgjgpN-c.mp4?tag=6

We shall agree to differ, and I'm not blinded by nostalgia.... just in a better position to compare the two eras because I've lived through both. Leave it there I think.

 

[mikes01666]

I may be wrong here but my memory of the home nations was that they preety competive matches. I am sure some one will throw a pile of stats to prove me wrong but england going to glasgow was always a very hard place to play.

Pretty competitive in the shape of Norman Hunter, Chopper Harris, Peter Storey and our very own Dave Mackay. These guys were made of granite and wouldn't hesitate in putting you in row D.
Also played on sand pits without a blade of grass on them.
GBH was committed several times on a Saturday afternoon. After 20 minutes they'd throw the ball on!
Them were the days!

 

[Paul G]

I seem to recall Robo putting Charlie Nicholas in row D. Literally!

 

[Eli]

I seem to recall Robo putting Charlie Nicholas in row D. Literally!

 

[The Mercurial No.10]

He's been averaging a goal a game club and country and that was playing half a fucking season with a team that wouldn't put the ball into dangerous areas often enough to make the most of his talent.

Jose knows the score here.

 

[Incomplete_usernam]

He's been averaging a goal a game club and country and that was playing half a fucking season with a team that wouldn't put the ball into dangerous areas often enough to make the most of his talent.

Jose knows the score here.

Exactly mate, people keep saying "he isn't the same Kane that he was a few years ago."

And I would agree, he's better now!

Jose is going to bring the absolute best out of him.

 

[Joe Clash]

Harry Kane is a phenomenal footballer. Still scoring for fun whilst improving his all round game beyond recognition.

 

[Incomplete_usernam]

I'm not old enough to have ever watched Greaves week in week out although I don't think age is a necessity for judgement. One could be equally blinded by a sense of nostalgia.

Going back and looking at statistics from the 40s through to the 60s high scoring draws like 5-5 or 6-6 as well as huge 12-0 victories weren't compltley uncommon.

I get you point but I don't one should equate the brutality of tackles to good defending if you go back and watch some of Pele's highlights you can see how easy it was for him to literally walk through a defense.

Look at the state of the defending in the clip below, Messi would be scoring 8 goals a day.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1100522727864193025/pu/vid/638x360/WXAs-OA3lgjgpN-c.mp4?tag=6

We shall agree to differ, and I'm not blinded by nostalgia.... just in a better position to compare the two eras because I've lived through both. Leave it there I think.

A sensible mature discussion that doesn't end in a cunt off?

Is this TFC?

 

[The Mercurial No.10]

They're likely in PM discussions, threatening eachother's families etc.

 

[94Spurs94]

Comparisons between Greaves and Kane are interesting but you have to take context into account.

On the one hand Greaves record is amazing but on the other when you take a look at defending back then it was atrocious.

How would Greaves deal with modern defenders like Jan?

Although I will say the thought of a young Greaves undergoing modern football training would obviously change things.

I think you could say that for any players from past eras though. Probably controversial but I'm personally pretty certain that even if you adapted their tactics and got the team used to them, our double winning side magically placed in the modern PL would be relegated. Standards of fitness, coaching, organisation have increased so much that it outweighs the impact of talent IMO. So I say we judge players on what they achieved in their own times, with their own circumstances, and on that measure Greaves is undoubtedly one of the greats.

 

[Borodin55]

They're likely in PM discussions, threatening eachother's families etc.

Damn, I completely forgot that bit..... Doesn't always need to end in insults and threats. One subject, two different views that's all.

 

[RomanzoCriminale]

Honestly, Harry hasn’t even been our best player in the past 18 months. I know injuries have played a part but until he starts really producing significantly above replacement, I wouldn’t put him in the category of world class. If you compare his goal scoring production against our other attackers on a per minute/game basis, you’ll find that he’s not much better than Lucas and worse than Son if you take out Harry’s PKs. That’s pretty shocking given he’s our 9 and talisman while the other two our wide wingers. Hopefully Mou can get him to produce like a true world class striker again.... and I’m not talking about PKs or scoring goals against second and third tier teams.

Is your name Dufus?

 

[BAE32]

Hilarious that people are wheeling out the stats about Kane not being as productive in recent years, but failing to mention that his supply line has entirely drifted out of form over the same period. The guy has always been clinical, its just that he used to be part of a free flowing front line full of confidence and scoring for fun, whereas recently he has been the spearhead of an incredibly blunt attack.

The fact that he has continued his close to one-goal-a-game ratio over the past 12-24 months is testament in itself given the other factors in play.

 

[mouse]

Hilarious that people are wheeling out the stats about Kane not being as productive in recent years, but failing to mention that his supply line has entirely drifted out of form over the same period. The guy has always been clinical, its just that he used to be part of a free flowing front line full of confidence and scoring for fun, whereas recently he has been the spearhead of an incredibly blunt attack.

The fact that he has continued his close to one-goal-a-game ratio over the past 12-24 months is testament in itself given the other factors in play.

The article i posted mentions just that.

"The obvious response is to mention Spurs’ deteriorating form which has now resulted in Pochettino’s departure. And whilst it’s true that form is a real factor; it doesn’t take StatsBomb data to tell you strikers benefit from playing in teams that create chances more easily. What we know is that Tottenham’s expected goals in attack have seen a 32.5% decrease this season compared to 2017–18, a sizeable decline to be sure. But Kane’s individual xG and xG assisted has fallen by 53.4% over the same period. The two numbers cannot be separated, but Kane’s attacking output has declined at a faster rate than Spurs overall. We should also note his touches in the box have risen, as he’s become much less efficient at turning them into good shots. It certainly can’t be claimed that this blame falls solely on him, and it definitely feels plausible that his numbers would look better in a stronger side, but it’s also hard to use stats to make a case that Kane is merely a victim of Spurs’ problems, rather than an active contributor to them. "

It would be naive to consider ours an unbiased opinion with regard to Kane's form.

And i do think that we have developed a defensive stance towards criticism of him - generated from years and years of under-appreciation from rival fans even when he was at his absolutely monstrous best.

But Kane's form has suffered for whatever reason. Injury, psychology, tactical changes to his role in the team, the teams overall form..... whatever.

I will caveat all of this and say again - I have next to no doubt that Kane will be back at his absolute best under Mourinho. He will help him to play to his strengths and turn him back into a serial golden boot winner.

Plus even not at his very best Kane is still a superior player to 90% of the other forwards in the league if not the world.

 

[Kopspur]

I’m not trying to be a downer by any means. I love Harry and know he’s a great player but I’m not going to sit here and say that he’s been a world class player the past 18 months when the eye test and numbers both show that he hasn’t even been the best attacker on the team during this time frame. Another shocking fact is that Llorentes goal scored per minute played was significantly higher than Harry’s last year when you take out penalties. So blame it on the team all you want but Harry’s replacement was producing at a higher rate on an apples to apples basis...

I’d love to hear counter arguments based on recent advanced statistics and facts and not based on what Kane did prior to the start of 2018 season. Football doesn’t have a whole lot of advanced analytics that are widely used in other sports like baseball, basketball, American football etc so it’d be interesting to see if what other metrics are used to assess a footballers production/performance.

what is with people’s insistence on ‘taking out penalties’ from statistics? Utterly bizarre.

 

[The Mercurial No.10]

what is with people’s insistence on ‘taking out penalties’ from statistics? Utterly bizarre.

If anything he should get extra credit for taking them.

There have been a fair amount of World Class strikers who wouldn't even have the stones to take them on in high pressure situations.

Out of 43 penalties, he's missed 7 in his career (84% conversion)...and has also never lost a match he missed a penalty in.

Ronaldo is 81%

 

[Luvf]

If Kane winning 10 golden boots and 15 more league goal title came along as byproduct of the team winning titles then I would be all for it and could not be happier for Kane. But we cannot go back to being the "Harry Kane team" which was one of Poch own doings. The team simply is not going to be good enough to win titles by narrowed down to being Harry Kane team.