• The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Media Amazon fly-on-the-wall documentary about Spurs

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

KickHerInTheSponge said:
Thanks for proving my point. He built an amazing team on a budget. Now imagine if those punts like Nkoudou and Jansen were proper buys.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What you mean proper buys like Ndombele and Sessengon?
We had the best team in the league 16/17 yet we won fuck all, even the 15/16 season we had a much better team then Leicester , I honestly believe that Jose, Pep, Klopp or even Conte would have walked the league with a squad including LLoris, Son, Kane, Dele, Eriksen , Toby , Jan , Rose and Wanyama and even Dier, yet we are meant to think poch over achieved?
 
Last edited:
KickHerInTheSponge said:
Very silly superficial thinking.

If you have better players in your team you increase the chances od winning.
Did Levy prevent that? Yes.

Would spending have guaranteed us to have won those games?

No but our chances would be increased. Maybe we'd have a better backup goalie/LB. Or maybe we'd have been in the lead/still won if we had more attacking depth. Maybe fresher legs who knows.
Net spend and wage bill always correlate with success and that's a fact, Jack.

And anyway it's unbelievable that you can't see the absurdity of having the nerve to criticise someone who was performing micracles on a pathetic budget.

He had less ingredients than other chefs on his level. It was amazing he kept it competitive.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...



ffs he never prevented any spending, Poch had a budget in each window, had his targets, couldn't get them so preferred to go with what he had. Frankie De Jong has spoken how he nearly signed for us in the summer when we didn't spend, but chose Barca. Various other sources have stated Poch couldn't get his targets. Who do i believe, a player that nearly signed for us for £60 million and sources like Graham Roberts, Glenn Hoddle etc backed up, or a guy on the internet called kickherinthesponge. One side are all adults working within the sport, the other has a misognystic username that teenage boys in the in the 90's would get giggles over.

I'm sure some posters on here have crossed over from a parallel universe where the exact opposite to reality is true when it comes to Poch/Levy.
 
ErikLamela'sHip said:
They don't always go together. Burnley and Sheffield United have an excellent mentality in their squads - very clear collective objectives and great togetherness in the way that they play. They aren't teams full of superstars but are more than the sum of their parts - just two teams of good players, made better by crafty management and tactics.

In contrast you've had very many examples in the past like the "Galacticos" of Real Madrid (etc) who under-achieved as a team because they didn't quite have the togetherness that they should have had. On the national stage you've had numerous technically gifted Dutch squads that didn't win anything. more latterly N'Dombele most fans agree has a lot of talent but there are apparently question marks over his rigour and professionalism.

And, this is all caveatted with the fact we're discussing elite level football, where the differences in quality are often microscopic. Contrast with the lower leagues where there's less talent in general and if anything the differences between quality and talent become even greater.

I guess what I'm saying is as well as talent and mentality attitude plays an incredibly important role, even at the elite level where there are numerous technically gifted athletes.

Edit - to add, there are examples where you've got talented teams with great winning mentality too, of course - you cited one, Chelsea 2004-07. Talent and mentality aren't exclusive attributes, of course.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There are outliers either way of course. Some poorer teams do well and some big teams underperform as you pointed out.
This is why we must look at all the data in its entirety.
Statistically, net spend and wage bill correlate with final league standings. Top 4 finishes over a longer course of time correlate with increased likelihood of winning cups.

So yes anomalies exist but it's not sensible to point to them.

Poch had us out performing our budget not just for a year but several. This is extremely rare and suggests high quality coaching. He earned the right to spend. If he was given money to buy who he wanted and not punts, we'd most likely have won things by now and pundits would be talking about how Poch changed our mentality along with philosophy/culture.
 
Fattynomates said:
What you mean proper buys like Ndombele and Sessengon?
We had the best team in the league 16/17 yet we won fuck all, even the 17/18 season we had a much better team then Leicester , I honestly believe that Jose, Pep, Klopp or even Conte would have walked the league with a squad including LLoris, Son, Kane, Dele, Eriksen , Toby , Jan , Rose and Wanyama and even Dier, yet we are meant to think poch over achieved?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We spent too little too late. Struck timidly when the iron when frozen cold.

And fuck right off. None of those managers win on budgets. They spend shit loads throughout their careers and you then say confidently they would have did better than a guy who outperformed his budget for years.
Jose should win the league this or next year then right?
 
KickHerInTheSponge said:
Being nasty is the new "winning mentality".
Funny how all the teams associated with being successful due to it also spent lots of money acquiring lots of players. Almost like it's completely BS.
But no, if Ben Davies learns how to cuss the right winger's mum we're going to transform into champions.

We had the perfect balance Poch's old team with Walker, Dembele etc. Aggressive, creative, solid, pacey etc. We failed to capitalise cos we didn't improve on it. Cheapskate cunt upstairs let it rot.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Mentality makes a difference. Even at the youth levels. When I instill confidence in my kid and tell him to be aggressive, he shines. When he is meek, he doesn’t play as well. That 5% extra effort, 5% extra confidence, 5% extra cuntyness means winning more 50/50 balls, winning more interceptions, more key passes, and more goals. That extra push can make the difference between finishing 4th and winning the PL or the difference between the QF or winning the CL.
 
KickHerInTheSponge said:
There are outliers either way of course. Some poorer teams do well and some big teams underperform as you pointed out.
This is why we must look at all the data in its entirety.
Statistically, net spend and wage bill correlate with final league standings. Top 4 finishes over a longer course of time correlate with increased likelihood of winning cups.

So yes anomalies exist but it's not sensible to point to them.

Poch had us out performing our budget not just for a year but several. This is extremely rare and suggests high quality coaching. He earned the right to spend. If he was given money to buy who he wanted and not punts, we'd most likely have won things by now and pundits would be talking about how Poch changed our mentality along with philosophy/culture.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Agree with the first couple of lines, but I think it's right that the outliers are pointed out - it's an important part of how football works and I think there might be more than you are allowing for here. For example, how many "flops", "bombs" (etc) have there been in elite level football, where lavish fortunes were wasted on talented but mercurial players who didn't fit the collective ethic or squad shape? None of them were 'crap footballers' but they were misfits in that particular team. This is one of the reasons why the data you cited exists - lots of resources are spent of recruitment, which is the hardest thing in the game to get right, especially at top level where you've got agents in the ear of clubs hawking their talents and not always being particularly truthful.

You mentioned Chelsea and Man City. They spent big but needed to get the right players? If memory serves City bought quite a lot of 'crap' before they got it right, though (and this is where I agree with you) they were always going to get there in the end because of their limitless finances.

I think we're only disagreeing on degrees rather than principle tbh - but, please do change your misogynistic and unpleasant username!
 
RomanzoCriminale said:
ffs he never prevented any spending, Poch had a budget in each window, had his targets, couldn't get them so preferred to go with what he had. Frankie De Jong has spoken how he nearly signed for us in the summer when we didn't spend, but chose Barca. Various other sources have stated Poch couldn't get his targets. Who do i believe, a player that nearly signed for us for £60 million and sources like Graham Roberts, Glenn Hoddle etc backed up, or a guy on the internet called kickherinthesponge. One side are all adults working within the sport, the other has a misognystic username that teenage boys in the in the 90's would get giggles over.

I'm sure some posters on here have crossed over from a parallel universe where the exact opposite to reality is true when it comes to Poch/Levy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
All of our recent managers have moaned about Levy not backing.
You want to lap up slapheads PR go for it
 
prinmemo said:
Mentality makes a difference. Even at the youth levels. When I instill confidence in my kid and tell him to be aggressive, he shines. When he is meek, he doesn’t play as well. That 5% extra effort, 5% extra confidence, 5% extra cuntyness means winning more 50/50 balls, winning more interceptions, more key passes, and more goals. That extra push can make the difference between finishing 4th and winning the PL or the difference between the QF or winning the CL.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Okay now imagine there are players with as much mental strength and desire but also more talent.
 
RomanzoCriminale said:
ffs he never prevented any spending, Poch had a budget in each window, had his targets, couldn't get them so preferred to go with what he had. Frankie De Jong has spoken how he nearly signed for us in the summer when we didn't spend, but chose Barca. Various other sources have stated Poch couldn't get his targets. Who do i believe, a player that nearly signed for us for £60 million and sources like Graham Roberts, Glenn Hoddle etc backed up, or a guy on the internet called kickherinthesponge. One side are all adults working within the sport, the other has a misognystic username that teenage boys in the in the 90's would get giggles over.

I'm sure some posters on here have crossed over from a parallel universe where the exact opposite to reality is true when it comes to Poch/Levy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That username is cringe
 
KickHerInTheSponge said:
We spent too little too late. Struck timidly when the iron when frozen cold.

And fuck right off. None of those managers win on budgets. They spend shit loads throughout their careers and you then say confidently they would have did better than a guy who outperformed his budget for years.
Jose should win the league this or next year then right?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Do you agree that our squad was better than Leicesters in the 17/18 season? I think its hard to deny this fact, and if you agree that our squad was better then how does budget even come into it?
 
ErikLamela'sHip said:
Agree with the first couple of lines, but I think it's right that the outliers are pointed out - it's an important part of how football works and I think there might be more than you are allowing for here. For example, how many "flops", "bombs" (etc) have there been in elite level football, where lavish fortunes were wasted on talented but mercurial players who didn't fit the collective ethic or squad shape? None of them were 'crap footballers' but they were misfits in that particular team. This is one of the reasons why the data you cited exists - lots of resources are spent of recruitment, which is the hardest thing in the game to get right, especially at top level where you've got agents in the ear of clubs hawking their talents and not always being particularly truthful.

You mentioned Chelsea and Man City. They spent big but needed to get the right players? If memory serves City bought quite a lot of 'crap' before they got it right, though (and this is where I agree with you) they were always going to get there in the end because of their limitless finances.

I think we're only disagreeing on degrees rather than principle tbh - but, please do change your misogynistic and unpleasant username!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I never read the blokes posts because I can't get past the user name.

That's four people on this page alone that find it offensive.
 
ErikLamela'sHip said:
Agree with the first couple of lines, but I think it's right that the outliers are pointed out - it's an important part of how football works and I think there might be more than you are allowing for here. For example, how many "flops", "bombs" (etc) have there been in elite level football, where lavish fortunes were wasted on talented but mercurial players who didn't fit the collective ethic or squad shape? None of them were 'crap footballers' but they were misfits in that particular team. This is one of the reasons why the data you cited exists - lots of resources are spent of recruitment, which is the hardest thing in the game to get right, especially at top level where you've got agents in the ear of clubs hawking their talents and not always being particularly truthful.

You mentioned Chelsea and Man City. They spent big but needed to get the right players? If memory serves City bought quite a lot of 'crap' before they got it right, though (and this is where I agree with you) they were always going to get there in the end because of their limitless finances.

I think we're only disagreeing on degrees rather than principle tbh - but, please do change your misogynistic and unpleasant username!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I agree they did buy a lot of crap but that's part of football. No one has a 100% success rate.
But Spurs fans and even Levy will point to a flop as proof that spending doesn't always work when in reality it takes consistency. I don't expect City style spend until it works type of shit. But we can certainly have done more than we did. Not spending for a window was unacceptable. Not backing Poch properly despite title challenges and CL qualifications etc. Finacial reports/info as well as pundits/journos have commented on how we could have afforded to spend more too.

I'm sorry my username was voted by the fine people of the fighting cock via poll around 4 years ago I had no say.
 
Fattynomates said:
So Ndombele the player you keep raving about in the other thread this isn't backing the manager? GLC this isn't backing the manager? Sessengon for £25 million, this isnt backing the manager?
So was Ndombele a Levy signing or a poch signing?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Too little too late

We needed players to complement other players. Instead we got replacements (in some areas, others we let fully regress).

If I give you a 5 star meal on Sunday it won't make up for starving you mon-sat.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top