Management ENIC

le grand coq · 28 May 2023

Ed Vanderlay said:
Just what has the training ground delivered

A better team , certainly not
Better youth teams, again certainly not

What is the point if neither of the above are achieved, all fur coat and no knickers

Big clubs upgrade their facilities. It's not the 1960s where players would run around the park puffing on cigs

Players spend most of their working life at the training complex. You need a high class facility.
We need to do better with our youth team I agree but its so competitive. Most kids will not be good enough. We had a good crop a few years back sometimes it's luck.

You also need a manager who promotes youth. Mourinho & Conte were definitely not that guy.

Imho we have lost players who could have played a role.

FightingIllini · 28 May 2023

MemphisWill said:
the bests sustained period of league finishes in the club's history.

Another one of those off-hand factoids about Levy that no longer is true, even in this modern financialized age where league finish becomes ever more an ipso-facto derivative of revenue with little variability up or down.

From 1956-57: 2nd, 3rd, 18th, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 3rd, 7th, 6th, 11th, 3rd

From 2005-06: 5th, 5th, 11th, 8th, 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th (then 7th, 4th, pending 8th)

The first stretch is clearly better.

We also ran off 4th, 4th, 8th, 3rd, 10th, 3rd, 13th, 6th, 3rd in the 80's

And 6th, 8th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd after the war.

The idea that we're a yo-yo side that nicked a cup here and there is a dead, flat lie.

LeParisien · 28 May 2023

Kosher Kid said:
You're a bit of a cock.

Reasoned non-troll post met with a stupid insult.

Classic illustration of the difference between both sides of the argument.

LeParisien · 28 May 2023

FightingIllini said:
Another one of those off-hand factoids about Levy that no longer is true, even in this modern financialized age where league finish becomes ever more an ipso-facto derivative of revenue with little variability up or down.

From 1956-57: 2nd, 3rd, 18th, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 3rd, 7th, 6th, 11th, 3rd

From 2005-06: 5th, 5th, 11th, 8th, 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th (then 7th, 4th, pending 8th)

The first stretch is clearly better.

We also ran off 4th, 4th, 8th, 3rd, 10th, 3rd, 13th, 6th, 3rd in the 80's

And 6th, 8th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd after the war.

The idea that we're a yo-yo side that nicked a cup here and there is a dead, flat lie.

It’s statistically the second best period in our history and the period you highlight is better.

Levy has FACTUALLY overseen the second best period of league form in our history and the best for over 50 years.

That’s a fact that his critics need to fairly weigh in. Some do, most don’t.

Deuterz · 28 May 2023

LeParisien said:
Reasoned non-troll post met with a stupid insult.

Classic illustration of the difference between both sides of the argument.

Yeah your side post gifs mocking the disabled & tell everyone how clever they are.

MemphisWill · 28 May 2023

FightingIllini said:
Another one of those off-hand factoids about Levy that no longer is true, even in this modern financialized age where league finish becomes ever more an ipso-facto derivative of revenue with little variability up or down.

From 1956-57: 2nd, 3rd, 18th, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 3rd, 7th, 6th, 11th, 3rd

From 2005-06: 5th, 5th, 11th, 8th, 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th (then 7th, 4th, pending 8th)

The first stretch is clearly better.

We also ran off 4th, 4th, 8th, 3rd, 10th, 3rd, 13th, 6th, 3rd in the 80's

And 6th, 8th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd after the war.

The idea that we're a yo-yo side that nicked a cup here and there is a dead, flat lie.

1st group 4.8 average, 2nd 5.1. Adding the next 3 years in each case:
1st - 5.4
2nd - 5.2

3rd group is 9 years, so let's add the 9 years to make it a fair comp.

+9 years before: 10.4
+9 years after: 9
+4 years before, 5 years after: 8.2

4th group if you run it out to the same baseline for comparison and add the following 12 years, 6.6 average but with 3 titles it was undoubtedly the golden era of the club.

Regardless - while you've cherry picked some years to fit your point, objectively, ENIC's years in charge have been the most consistent run of form and average league finish in the club's history. It's an inarguable mathematical fact.

le grand coq · 28 May 2023

yes said:
From a business standpoint, looking at Tottenham as an asset then yeah, he's done well. He has increased revenues at the club, increased its value and will earn ENIC a substantial profit when they sell on.

But none of us sit here with hard ons for his ability to make money for the shareholders.

He is absolutely atrocious at making footballing decisions. Everything he touches turns to shit. His recruitment model is amongst the worst in the Premier League. The amount of money that he has pissed away over the last 5 years is unforgivable. Over £250m has been spent on total flops in that time period, along with getting rid of players we really should not have gotten rid of. He brought in a dodgy DOF who promoted the worst brand of football imaginable and sanctioned 3 horrendous managerial appointments.

Has he/ENIC future proofed the club by constructing great facilities? Yep. I thank him for that. But he has also overseen the destruction of the club's culture, identity and feel. He has been at the helm for an incredibly long time with zero on-field success to show for it and if he had any respect for the club's history and fanbase he'd accept that he has done everything he can and move on. Take the profit and leave.

Thing is all clubs make mistakes in the transfer market & with managerial appointments.
it's not something you can just point the finger at levy for.

Why are Everton & Leeds in imminent danger of relegation despite spending a fair amount of cash in recent years?
Everton overspent & got done with ffp didn't they?

The appointments post Poch imho have taken the club in the wrong direction but let's not forget we finished 4th last season. Also don't forget we were still sat in 4th this season when Conte threw his toys out of the pram.

The 250m wasted is it all on levy or is some of it bad choices by managers?

Ngl I think the squad needs work but I don't think it's any worse than Villa who put a good run together when Emery came in to fire them back up the table.

Players who Conte didn't use may be a fit for the new man?

See what happens, Maybe if things don't go well nxt season Enic decide they have taken the club as far as they can and look to move on?

FightingIllini · 28 May 2023

MemphisWill said:
1st group 4.8 average, 2nd 5.1. Adding the next 3 years in each case:
1st - 5.4
2nd - 5.2

3rd group is 9 years, so let's add the 9 years to make it a fair comp.

+9 years before: 10.4
+9 years after: 9
+4 years before, 5 years after: 8.2

4th group if you run it out to the same baseline for comparison and add the following 12 years, 6.6 average but with 3 titles it was undoubtedly the golden era of the club.

Regardless - while you've cherry picked some years to fit your point, objectively, ENIC's years in charge have been the most consistent run of form and average league finish in the club's history. It's an inarguable mathematical fact.

I did indeed cherry-pick years. I cherry picked ENIC’s best years in order to avoid any accusations otherwise.

My guy, all respect and blessings to you, but this claim is, like, inarguably flatly wrong. Even with you smuggling the words “consistent” and “average” into it.

That’s only going to get clearer as the years go by anyway, I’m not really concerned about torturing the entrails of this argument. I just respect your views on BBQ so I’m trying to help you out of a bad take here.

le grand coq · 28 May 2023

MemphisWill said:
FightingIllini said:

Another one of those off-hand factoids about Levy that no longer is true, even in this modern financialized age where league finish becomes ever more an ipso-facto derivative of revenue with little variability up or down.

From 1956-57: 2nd, 3rd, 18th, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 3rd, 7th, 6th, 11th, 3rd

From 2005-06: 5th, 5th, 11th, 8th, 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th (then 7th, 4th, pending 8th)

The first stretch is clearly better.

We also ran off 4th, 4th, 8th, 3rd, 10th, 3rd, 13th, 6th, 3rd in the 80's

And 6th, 8th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd after the war.

The idea that we're a yo-yo side that nicked a cup here and there is a dead, flat lie.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We have never been a yo yo side in terms of relegation tbf. We just have never been a side that wins titles.

Everton won way more.

FightingIllini · 28 May 2023

LeParisien said:
It’s statistically the second best period in our history and the period you highlight is better.

Levy has FACTUALLY overseen the second best period of league form in our history and the best for over 50 years.

That’s a fact that his critics need to fairly weigh in. Some do, most don’t.

You I like less so I’m tempted to make mean jokes about the way your Levy claims are retreating in true French fashion.

But I’m late for dinner. Behave yourselves while I’m gone, for goodness sake.

MemphisWill · 28 May 2023

FightingIllini said:
I did indeed cherry-pick years. I cherry picked ENIC’s best years in order to avoid any accusations otherwise.

My guy, all respect and blessings to you, but this claim is, like, inarguably flatly wrong. Even with you smuggling the words “consistent” and “average” into it.

That’s only going to get clearer as the years go by anyway, I’m not really concerned about torturing the entrails of this argument. I just respect your views on BBQ so I’m trying to help you out of a bad take here.

You're the one with a "take". I'm simply objectively comparing matching datasets.

You like to present your opinion as fact, when it's just a subjective opinion. I don't care much for Levy, but the numbers are what the numbers are. Under Levy's stewardship we've had the highest 2 decade average league finish in the club's history.

This is why I like math, it's binary, its objective. It's either true or false and no level of gesticulation from you will change it.

LeParisien · 28 May 2023

MemphisWill said:
You're the one with a "take". I'm simply objectively comparing matching datasets.

You like to present your opinion as fact, when it's just a subjective opinion. I don't care much for Levy, but the numbers are what the numbers are. Under Levy's stewardship we've had the highest 2 decade average league finish in the club's history.

This is why I like math, it's binary, its objective. It's either true or false and no level of gesticulation from you will change it.

Using mathematical facts will get you abused, mocked or told you’re arrogant.

I posted some quite simple graphs with some rolling averages since the 50s which clearly shows we recently had the second best run of form in our history and not a single person had anything of substance to say in response. The very best I got was “but we didn’t win any trophies” which doesn’t address the point at all.

Facts don’t matter to these people.

MemphisWill · 28 May 2023

LeParisien said:
Using mathematical facts will get you abused, mocked or told you’re arrogant.

I posted some quite simple graphs with some rolling averages since the 50s which clearly shows we recently had the second best run of form in our history and not a single person had anything of substance to say in response. The very best I got was “but we didn’t win any trophies” which doesn’t address the point at all.

Facts don’t matter to these people.

Yeah, I don't want to give Levy/ENIC much credit here because they've won 1 LC in almost a quarter century - they have to own that.

But we've been very close to several more trophies, and had we won some of those then it would be hard to argue that Levy hadn't been an incredible success.

Thus, my point is simply that casting him as some sort of catastrophic failure simply doesn't hold water. The truth is in between. He's been very good, but ultimately disappointing because as of yet we have continued to fall short of our potential. Most importantly, he's gotten every hire since Poch wrong.

LeParisien · 28 May 2023

MemphisWill said:
Yeah, I don't want to give Levy/ENIC much credit here because they've won 1 LC in almost a quarter century - they have to own that.

But we've been very close to several more trophies, and had we won some of those then it would be hard to argue that Levy hadn't been an incredible success.

Thus, my point is simply that casting him as some sort of catastrophic failure simply doesn't hold water. The truth is in between. He's been very good, but ultimately disappointing because as of yet we have continued to fall short of our potential. Most importantly, he's gotten every hire since Poch wrong.

A nuanced and reasonable post.

FightingIllini · 28 May 2023

MemphisWill said:
the best sustained period of league finishes in the club's history.

LeParisien said:
the second best period of league form in our history and the best for over 50 years.

MemphisWill said:
the most consistent run of form and average league finish in the club's history.

MemphisWill said:
the highest 2 decade average league finish in the club's history.

LeParisien said:
rolling averages since the 50s which clearly shows we recently had the second best run of form in our history

:bergwijnconfused: :levywhoa:

MemphisWill · 28 May 2023

FightingIllini said:
:bergwijnconfused:

You apparently struggle with maths. I'm sorry. Cool smilies tho.

FightingIllini · 28 May 2023

MemphisWill said:
Thus, my point is simply that casting him as some sort of catastrophic failure simply doesn't hold water.

Anybody who cares about the truth about Spurs' record can go look on Wikipedia, enjoy

List of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. seasons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The quoted is the important thing.

Levy wasn't a catastrophic failure for most of his time here. He was shrewd and cynical and financialized and annoying and not to everyone's taste. But the club evolved and modernized and had many good days on the pitch.

Then Summer 2018 happened.

That, and everything that has followed, and much more still to follow, couldn't possibly be described as anything short of catastrophic failure.

If you need to wait to see how badly our competitive position has eroded, you need for a league finish to have two digits, whatever, be my guest, to each his own.

For years here I've made the point that every window that goes by without serious investment, the bill to get back on track gets ever higher. That point was correct, but it's expired. It's just over now, winter is coming.

We'll probably nick 7th and Europe tomorrow. Which is great! It helps! But the broader damage is done.

Dudski · 28 May 2023

MemphisWill said:
Yeah, I don't want to give Levy/ENIC much credit here because they've won 1 LC in almost a quarter century - they have to own that.

But we've been very close to several more trophies, and had we won some of those then it would be hard to argue that Levy hadn't been an incredible success.

Thus, my point is simply that casting him as some sort of catastrophic failure simply doesn't hold water. The truth is in between. He's been very good, but ultimately disappointing because as of yet we have continued to fall short of our potential. Most importantly, he's gotten every hire since Poch wrong.

The reaction to the current leadership is about more than wins and trophies. It has more to do with the lack of direction and the odd way in which the organization seemingly finds new and unique ways of making a shambles of managerial selections and player procurement. There are clever people and people with good judgment in the business world, but sometimes being more clever than possessed of sound judgment can lead you up blind alleys. That's what happens with Spurs time and again.

MemphisWill · 28 May 2023

FightingIllini said:
Anybody who cares about the truth about Spurs' record can go look on Wikipedia, enjoy

List of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. seasons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not really sure what you're getting at - yes, that is the same compiled list of season results in club history I used to calculate that Levy has presided over the 20 year period with the highest average league finish in club history. That is the truth about Spurs' record. Sorry it doesn't fit what you're selling, but maths is maths.

FightingIllini said:
For years here I've made the point that every window that goes by without serious investment, the bill to get back on track gets ever higher. That point was correct, but it's expired. It's just over now, winter is cocoming.

Again your having a hard time with maths. Since 2019 we've spent nearly €600M on transfer fees. We've just spunked it all because of shite scouting. But it hasn't been for lack of trying. Again, that's a failing you can attribute to Levy but at least level the appropriate charges.

MemphisWill · 28 May 2023

Dudski said:
The reaction to the current leadership is about more than wins and trophies. It has more to do with the lack of direction and the odd way in which the organization seemingly finds new and unique ways of making a shambles of managerial selections and player procurement. There are clever people and people with good judgment in the business world, but sometimes being more clever than possessed of sound judgment can lead you up blind alleys. That's what happens with Spurs time and again.

I'm not gonna argue against that. Again, the only way I got drug into this debate was pointing out that the truth is that Levy has been a good, but ultimately unsuccessful chairman. He's done some great things for Spurs, but has made some costly blunders. He's overseen a period of great consistent success in the league and european qualification, but fallen short of the glory that would have made it a golden era.

I just can't buy into this idea some want to push that he's been a catastrophe and try to cast the success he's had as a stroke of luck that anyone could have had.

I'd be more than happy for ENIC to sell up, but I find it extremely doubtful that they intend to any time soon.

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