Manager Ange Postecoglou

[Rafa]

The limit is players, Conte has rigid tactics but we've seen with the right players he can win leagues, there's literally no difference.

Ange allows his full backs more fluidity but they're both extremely risky tacticians, they had their CB pressing Maddison when we played them for example, they both get their teams to press super high, their rest defence is remarkably similar, both their teams have problems with transitions because they push so many players forward, also both struggle to break down low blocks.

Every manager's system is rigid to a certain extent, look at Pep's system, you know exactly how they are going to play, look at their patterns and their system, the difference is that they have the players to pull it off - Haaland and Foden is miles better than Welbeck and Enciso for example.

Give the guy better players and his system makes more sense.

This is why if Ange gets his players BTW he'll push us onto much higher levels because at the moment there's a limit to Ange ball because of the players he has at his disposal.

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Conte is rigid but the difference is that he allows players more ownership in the final third. He got the best out of Hazard who hated his football that way.

Also De Zerbi only plays possession ball. Conte doesn’t give a shit about that and will tell the team to play longball or just sit deep and break. De Zerbi refuses to do that which limits his coaching methods which makes it easier to play against.

He won the league his first season but they went from 93 points to 70 in his second season. That’s ultimately because that coaching method eventually gets found out in this league.

 

[SpursRomania]

He won the league his first season but they went from 93 points to 70 in his second season. That’s ultimately because that coaching method eventually gets found out in this league.

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I think it was reported that Conte relationship with some Chavs players broke down in that second season, possibly one of the reason they didn’t perform.

 

[Shadydan]

Conte is rigid but the difference is that he allows players more ownership in the final third. He got the best out of Hazard who hated his football that way.

Also De Zerbi only plays possession ball. Conte doesn’t give a shit about that and will tell the team to play longball or just sit deep and break. De Zerbi refuses to do that which limits his coaching methods which makes it easier to play against.

He won the league his first season but they went from 93 points to 70 in his second season. That’s ultimately because that coaching method eventually gets found out in this league.

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More ownership in the final 3rd, what is that even supposed to mean?

Conte's teams don't play long ball football either. You watched Conte's team last season didn't you, you realise how bad we were when it went stale don't you? You saw how limited his coaching looked when Kane didn't bail him out right?

Anyway back to De Zerbi, it will be interesting if he goes to somewhere like Bayern, his system would bang but I think he's a bit of a man child anyway, very diva like tendencies so not sure he would last there.

 

[Rafa]

More ownership in the final 3rd, what is that even supposed to mean?

Conte's teams don't play long ball football either. You watched Conte's team last season didn't you, you realise how bad we were when it went stale don't you? You saw how limited his coaching looked when Kane didn't bail him out right?

Anyway back to De Zerbi, it will be interesting if he goes to somewhere like Bayern, his system would bang but I think he's a bit of a man child anyway, very diva like tendencies so not sure he would last there.

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It just means you allow players to make their own decisions once you get in the final third. That’s how you get the best out of someone like Hazard who doesn’t want to be told what to do. The same applies for other good players as well. The reason Palmer has been so good this season is because Poch has allowed him to express himself, De Zerbi wouldn’t do that. Even Pep said something about how when you get to the final third it’s up to the players, you can’t over coach them then.

I agree he isn’t a long ball coach only, my point was that he is willing to do that if he has to. De Zerbi is committed to possession football and for example playing out the back no matter what.

I agree Conte’s coaching has a limit but he still is able to do it better than De Zerbi does because he can manage top players better and is still more willing to do something different despite his stubbornness.

I’m not really sure how he’d do at Bayern, the German league might be kinder to him. But with Alonso staying winning the league won’t be a guarantee.

 

[Rafa]

I think it was reported that Conte relationship with some Chavs players broke down in that second season, possibly one of the reason they didn’t perform.

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For sure, I’m not just blaming Conte for their second season breaking down. But I do think he had a role in it.

He didn’t get what he wanted in that window and he basically just gave up.

Still got them an Fa cup though, their last domestic trophy. They’ve barely improved in the league since he left as well.

 

[Shadydan]

It just means you allow players to make their own decisions once you get in the final third. That’s how you get the best out of someone like Hazard who doesn’t want to be told what to do. The same applies for other good players as well. The reason Palmer has been so good this season is because Poch has allowed him to express himself, De Zerbi wouldn’t do that. Even Pep said something about how when you get to the final third it’s up to the players, you can’t over coach them then.

I agree he isn’t a long ball coach only, my point was that he is willing to do that if he has to. De Zerbi is committed to possession football and for example playing out the back no matter what.

I agree Conte’s coaching has a limit but he still is able to do it better than De Zerbi does because he can manage top players better and is still more willing to do something different despite his stubbornness.

I’m not really sure how he’d do at Bayern, the German league might be kinder to him. But with Alonso staying winning the league won’t be a guarantee.

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I don't get your point, you saw how Conte coached our forward didn't you? I didn't see much creative, expressive freedom in the way we attacked in the 2 seasons he was here, in fact everyone clocked onto his tactics in the 2nd season - a lot of it was Kane drop deep and Son spin in behind, when that stopped working we ran out of ideas.

De Zerbi clearly has his players have more freedom in the final 3rd, I've seen Joao Pedro score all sorts of goals in different areas of the pitch for Brighton, I've seen Pascal Gross float around the forward line, I don't see them as being overcoached in that system, they're much more fluid - I don't understand what Conte is wiling to change and how De Zerbi is apparently more stubborn than him, you did see the way he coached our team last season didn't you? Literally nothing changed with him, same tactics, same patterns, same system etc...

Arteta, Ange and Pep aren't long ball coaches either and they insist on playing through a press, as I said there's no difference to De Zerbi apart from players they have at their disposal.

Saying that Conte can manage top players better when De Zerbi hasn't had the chance to is laughable.

 

[Rafa]

I don't get your point, you saw how Conte coached our forward didn't you? I didn't see much creative, expressive freedom in the way we attacked in the 2 seasons he was here, in fact everyone clocked onto his tactics in the 2nd season - a lot of it was Kane drop deep and Son spin in behind, when that stopped working we ran out of ideas.

De Zerbi clearly has his players have more freedom in the final 3rd, I've seen Joao Pedro score all sorts of goals in different areas of the pitch for Brighton, I've seen Pascal Gross float around the forward line, I don't see them as being overcoached in that system, they're much more fluid - I don't understand what Conte is wiling to change and how De Zerbi is apparently more stubborn than him, you did see the way he coached our team last season didn't you? Literally nothing changed with him, same tactics, same patterns, same system etc...

Arteta, Ange and Pep aren't long ball coaches either and they insist on playing through a press, as I said there's no difference to De Zerbi apart from players they have at their disposal.

Saying that Conte can manage top players better when De Zerbi hasn't had the chance to is laughable.

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He got goals out of Son and Kane in his first season so it worked fine. That was the most goals Son ever scored in a league season. I was referring more towards his ability to accommodate someone like a Hazard and still getting the best out of him.

I’ve already said he gets found out in his second season, with us and Chelsea. The patterns get found out and he basically just gives up.

Joao Pedro has only scored like 3 goals from open play this season for Brighton in the league. You can have your players move around in the forward line and still be coached to do it. They could still be pre planned movements coached in the training ground. Or just in a certain situation where the player has to improvise. But overall he is very systematic.

Conte literally won a league title by changing his system.

You can find every single pattern De Zerbi implements in an Italian football book, or a Serie A match from 30 years ago. You can already predict what De Zerbi will do with better players by seeing what happened to Conte and Sarri when they had a better team than De Zerbi currently does. It’s the same thing. You start off well by drilling your patterns into the players and eventually get found out regardless of player quality.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

View: https://youtu.be/LrDLHZDh4is?si=Mo1sa5ewvYVHUhd5


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[Shadydan]

He got goals out of Son and Kane in his first season so it worked fine. That was the most goals Son ever scored in a league season. I was referring more towards his ability to accommodate someone like a Hazard and still getting the best out of him.

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We're not debating whether he got goals out of Son and Kane, you're arguing about whether players have creative freedom in a Conte team, our players never had that once.

Hazard still played in a rigid system, he played exclusively as an inside forward, you didn't see him popping up in different positions across the forward line at Chelsea.

I’ve already said he gets found out in his second season, with us and Chelsea. The patterns get found out and he basically just gives up.

Joao Pedro has only scored like 3 goals from open play this season for Brighton in the league. You can have your players move around in the forward line and still be coached to do it. They could still be pre planned movements coached in the training ground. Or just in a certain situation where the player has to improvise. But overall he is very systematic.

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I don't know what his goals have to do with anything, we are talking about players given more creative freedom not about how many goals they score?

I don't see how Conte gives more licence for this players to be more expressive in the final 3rd more than De Zerbi?

So what's the difference with De Zerbi's attacking patterns and Ange's attacking patterns then? If you're saying that Ange's patterns are more fluid..what else do you see that's coached differently or exclusively different to De Zerbi?

Conte literally won a league title by changing his system.

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He changed his formation, the basic philosophy of playing out and patterns of play remained the same.

Unless you think a system change is exclusively about changing formation then De Zerbi has done that plenty of times as well.

You can find every single pattern De Zerbi implements in an Italian football book, or a Serie A match from 30 years ago. You can already predict what De Zerbi will do with better players by seeing what happened to Conte and Sarri when they had a better team than De Zerbi currently does. It’s the same thing. You start off well by drilling your patterns into the players and eventually get found out regardless of player quality.

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Mate you know that every coach has a pattern and eventually you get found out right? You're speaking as if those are the only 2 managers in the world who drill patterns of play into their players.

Pep drills patterns into his players every season, look how he has Grealish play for example, he rarely takes on his fullback and is instructed to keep the ball, it's just that Pep has a load of top players that surrounds him and the best resources in the world.

The likelihood is that De Zerbi will go down the same route as Conte not because of tactics but because of temperament.

 

[Rafa]

We're not debating whether he got goals out of Son and Kane, you're arguing about whether players have creative freedom in a Conte team, our players never had that once.

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The point is that he can allow for that creative freedom when he needs to in order to get the best out of players. He’s shown the ability to be flexible in that regard. He can manage top players well enough to keep them happy and willing to score goals in his system.

Hazard still played in a rigid system, he played exclusively as an inside forward, you didn't see him popping up in different positions across the forward line at Chelsea.

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He didn’t want to or need to. He was allowed to express himself. Conte got more out of him at Chelsea than anyone else.

I don't know what his goals have to do with anything, we are talking about players given more creative freedom not about how many goals they score?

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I just haven’t really seen it then. Most of the goals I’ve seen from Pedro are penalties and headers.

I don't see how Conte gives more licence for this players to be more expressive in the final 3rd more than De Zerbi?

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It’s not about always given them more license, but knowing the type of player he’s managing and getting the best out of them. He allows certain players more autonomy if he needs to.

So what's the difference with De Zerbi's attacking patterns and Ange's attacking patterns then? If you're saying that Ange's patterns are more fluid..what else do you see that's coached differently or exclusively different to De Zerbi?

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He doesn’t just tell players what to do and expect them to blindly follow it. He empowers them to make their own decisions and find solutions. Not everything will go to plan in a game so it’s important that players improvise in those situations. You can tell with things like the spacing of the players. If you watch Brighton it’s all been drilled to the point where they instinctively pass the ball to a certain area because they’re told that their teammate will be there.

He changed his formation, the basic philosophy of playing out and patterns of play remained the same.

Unless you think a system change is exclusively about changing formation then De Zerbi has done that plenty of times as well.

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Well all managers stick to their basic philosophy. The point is that even within that coaching method he has, he is willing to do other things and won’t just stubbornly play out the back every single time. If the team has to sit deep, they’ll do it. If they can’t play out at a certain moment, they’ll go long.

Mate you know that every coach has a pattern and eventually you get found out right? You're speaking as if those are the only 2 managers in the world who drill patterns of play into their players.

Pep drills patterns into his players every season, look how he has Grealish play for example, he rarely takes on his fullback and is instructed to keep the ball, it's just that Pep has a load of top players that surrounds him and the best resources in the world.

The likelihood is that De Zerbi will go down the same route as Conte not because of tactics but because of temperament.

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Everyone has patterns, sure but some are more rigid and overcoach. Italian coaching is notorious for this and do it way more than everyone else.

Pep is similar, he just been able to have some of the best players at his disposal and a bunch of money to spend like you said.

 

[Shadydan]

The point is that he can allow for that creative freedom when he needs to in order to get the best out of players. He’s shown the ability to be flexible in that regard. He can manage top players well enough to keep them happy and willing to score goals in his system.

He didn’t want to or need to. He was allowed to express himself. Conte got more out of him at Chelsea than anyone else.

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But there wasn't much creative freedom though, that's the point

You seem to think that goals = creative freedom, that's not how it works

Hazard scored goals because of the system, because of overloads that Alonso was giving him and because he had Diego Costa (a battering ram) to play off. You didn't see Hazard popping up in every part of the pitch, their 3-4-3 was very much how he setup with us 3-2-5 in attack 5-4-1 in defence with a mid to low block, that's structural.

I just haven’t really seen it then. Most of the goals I’ve seen from Pedro are penalties and headers.

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Again that's irrelevant, you don't look for whether a player has creative freedom in the goals he scores, it's where he plays on the pitch, the positions he takes up, the runs he makes etc...- you're looking at the wrong thing.

It’s not about always given them more license, but knowing the type of player he’s managing and getting the best out of them. He allows certain players more autonomy if he needs to.

He doesn’t just tell players what to do and expect them to blindly follow it. He empowers them to make their own decisions and find solutions. Not everything will go to plan in a game so it’s important that players improvise in those situations. You can tell with things like the spacing of the players. If you watch Brighton it’s all been drilled to the point where they instinctively pass the ball to a certain area because they’re told that their teammate will be there.

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You could be talking about Ange here, our patterns in particular over the last 3-4 months have become predictable, the spacing of our players to stand in midfield and try to play through it and if you lose it you can press because you're all close together is strikingly similar to De Zerbi's system.

Well all managers stick to their basic philosophy. The point is that even within that coaching method he has, he is willing to do other things and won’t just stubbornly play out the back every single time. If the team has to sit deep, they’ll do it. If they can’t play out at a certain moment, they’ll go long.

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There was no alternative to sitting deep playing in a mid block or low block in Conte's system, that's literally how he sets up, same way playing out using his patterns, even playing long balls to get out, Conte rarely relied on his players playing it long to get out of a press?

Everyone has patterns, sure but some are more rigid and overcoach. Italian coaching is notorious for this and do it way more than everyone else.

Pep is similar, he just been able to have some of the best players at his disposal and a bunch of money to spend like you said.

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This is literally my point

 

[Rafa]

But there wasn't much creative freedom though, that's the point

You seem to think that goals = creative freedom, that's not how it works

Hazard scored goals because of the system, because of overloads that Alonso was giving him and because he had Diego Costa (a battering ram) to play off. You didn't see Hazard popping up in every part of the pitch, their 3-4-3 was very much how he setup with us 3-2-5 in attack 5-4-1 in defence with a mid to low block, that's structural.

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You don’t necessarily need creative freedom to score goals, but if you have players at your disposal who don’t want to be overcoached, then you need to be able to compromise and allow them more freedom to get the best out of them. The system helped Hazard score of course, but a manager needs to get the players to buy into the system and he did it by allowing him to express himself.

You could be talking about Ange here, our patterns in particular over the last 3-4 months have become predictable, the spacing of our players to stand in midfield and try to play through it and if you lose it you can press because you're all close together is strikingly similar to De Zerbi's system.

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That’s certainly true to an extent, I think the difference is that with Ange he wants to empower the players to try and find those solutions themselves when they find themselves in those situations.

There was no alternative to sitting deep playing in a mid block or low block in Conte's system, that's literally how he sets up, same way playing out using his patterns, even playing long balls to get out, Conte rarely relied on his players playing it long to get out of a press?

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There were some moments where we would press under Conte as well. He’d look to do it at the right time. Not just try to play out every single time.

This is literally my point

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I don’t consider Pep to be a messiah. I’m sure De Zerbi can do something similar with near infinite resources.

Do you think Conte could do what Pep has in his position if he had the temperament?

 

[Shadydan]

You don’t necessarily need creative freedom to score goals, but if you have players at your disposal who don’t want to be overcoached, then you need to be able to compromise and allow them more freedom to get the best out of them. The system helped Hazard score of course, but a manager needs to get the players to buy into the system and he did it by allowing him to express himself.


That’s certainly true to an extent, I think the difference is that with Ange he wants to empower the players to try and find those solutions themselves when they find themselves in those situations.

There were some moments where we would press under Conte as well. He’d look to do it at the right time. Not just try to play out every single time.

I don’t consider Pep to be a messiah. I’m sure De Zerbi can do something similar with near infinite resources.

Do you think Conte could do what Pep has in his position if he had the temperament?

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Bro I can't be arsed with this debate anymore as it's clearly going nowhere but by saying this you are literally agreeing with my original point, I said that coaches like De Zerbi need better players for his system to be more effective, I don't even know what you're disagreeing with anymore.

 

[Rafa]

Bro I can't be arsed with this debate anymore as it's clearly going nowhere but by saying this you are literally agreeing with my original point, I said that coaches like De Zerbi need better players for his system to be more effective, I don't even know what you're disagreeing with anymore.

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I’ll just leave it at this.

All coaches need better players to be more effective, obviously. But if you have near infinite resources, I’d expect any good coach to achieve something close to what Pep has.

 

[Shadydan]

I’ll just leave it at this.

All coaches need better players to be more effective, obviously. But if you have near infinite resources, I’d expect any good coach to achieve something close to what Pep has.

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ok

 

[Jimmy G]

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View: https://youtu.be/N_VS6UNRfxw?si=cnt4gUv1Zn9pqala


View: https://youtu.be/kP8un118mNs?si=Ums7A0J_XS0bvM4-

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Good watch

 

[Rafa’sWand]

What I distinctly remember, was the commentators and fans on here all praising Dier and Davies all match long, when the truth is, Wolves just missed a lot of chances. There wasn't a masterclass of defending, it was lucky as fuck we hung on until injury time.

I called it in the 80th minute that we'd lose. Not draw, but lose.

We've learned that Ange is quite stubborn, so if we'd won that, he would have gone with Dier and Davies again and possibly for a while. As it was, he dropped Dier straight away and barely used him again.

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We were shocking and as you say were lucky to have clung on for that long. Having got that far you’ve got to see out the win though.

It’s on the club and manager to a certain extent that we allowed ourselves to go into the season with only 2 CB’s able to comfortably play in our system, especially when our manager was never going to abandon the high line even if Romero/VDV got injured or suspended.

 

[Sir Alfred Conn]

I'm loving Big Agnes.
For me jose was a cnut, Conte was a one season wonder and then toys out of pram and that guy from Wolves should be somewhere like, err, Forest not us.
The style of football, when it works is exciting and what THFC is all about. If we can get the right players in for the system then I have high hopes.
My only criticism, and it has been said above, is that Ange is stubborn. That's fine but in this league, you will get sussed and we have been.
Funnily enough, in rhe last 2 games, he has adapted a bit, VDV to LB for example. So, maybe he has learned something.
Onwards
COYS

 

[Rafa’sWand]

GOAT do you ever post an opinion on anything? Or is just down voting everything and promoting female wrestling?

 

[Bill-bao Bob]

GOAT do you ever post an opinion on anything? Or is just down voting everything and promoting female wrestling?

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