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Tactics TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

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Anyone be bothered to break this one down tactically yet? Think I'm gonna need a bit more time before I'm able to watch any of this game back.

To me it seemed like Brighton were a completely new team after the break, as were we. Hurzeler brought on Estupinian but that can't have been it, there must have been some tactical adjustments on their behalf to swing the game that significantly.

As for us, well, we only play one way. No changes until minute 78, at which point Ange brings on two DMs when we're in need of a goal. Have to say I was scratching my head at his in-game decision making, and not for the first time.

Though, that's also what can happen when you start two #10s in midfield: (1) it can leave you fairly open in the middle, and (2) you've nobody left to bring on when in need of an attacking change (except poor Mikey, who's too young to really rely on to make a difference).

It's worth saying we hardly blew them away in the first half. We were decent, but the xG was roughly 0.65-0.9. I suspect there were some signs of what was to come in that second half. Maddison got absolutely done in midfield at one point which lead to that huge chance for Welbeck, & it gave me strong flashbacks of Newcastle's second.

Also it seemed to me they benefitted from Webster going off early on. We had been getting in behind their high line at will. Would need to watch it back but I'd be interested to see if they changed anything there in the second half, I don't recall getting in behind once.

Here's how Understat has it:

9HILaUr.png
 
Anyone be bothered to break this one down tactically yet? Think I'm gonna need a bit more time before I'm able to watch any of this game back.

To me it seemed like Brighton were a completely new team after the break, as were we. Hurzeler brought on Estupinian but that can't have been it, there must have been some tactical adjustments on their behalf to swing the game that significantly.

As for us, well, we only play one way. No changes until minute 78, at which point Ange brings on two DMs when we're in need of a goal. Have to say I was scratching my head at his in-game decision making, and not for the first time.

Though, that's also what can happen when you start two #10s in midfield: (1) it can leave you fairly open in the middle, and (2) you've nobody left to bring on when in need of an attacking change (except poor Mikey, who's too young to really rely on to make a difference).

It's worth saying we hardly blew them away in the first half. We were decent, but the xG was roughly 0.65-0.9. I suspect there were some signs of what was to come in that second half. Maddison got absolutely done in midfield at one point which lead to that huge chance for Welbeck, & it gave me strong flashbacks of Newcastle's second.

Also it seemed to me they benefitted from Webster going off early on. We had been getting in behind their high line at will. Would need to watch it back but I'd be interested to see if they changed anything there in the second half, I don't recall getting in behind once.

Here's how Understat has it:

9HILaUr.png
i actually like the two 10s in midfield, i think we need that to play anything decent. its all very workman like without it and too much emphasis on width when we know we dont have the wide players to play like that. with our wide forwards as limited as they are, we need the creativity boost.

his in-game management is the worst ive seen from a spurs manager. he allows intensity to drop and the midfield to get overrun time and time again. its all well and good coming out like we do, but you have to change as the game goes on. the fullbacks can stop going in front of the ball so much and become more balanced and harder to break down. we become easier and easier to get chances against as the game goes on because he doesnt adapt.

not entirely sure what brighton did as i only really watch out for what we are doing and where we are weakening. its the same shit every time.
 
Posted this in the match thread, might as well copy it over here


View: https://x.com/markstatsbot/status/1842982611242648054

I think the xthreat tells the story here. One team failed to convert good situations (Werner for Johnson and Kulusevski for Solanke eg) into high value XG chances, the other team did.

This was very much the type of game these two teams promised, quite high risk from both, and chaos.

I personally think the goals were more down to individual than systematic failures. Porro failing to cut out another cross, Udogie defending less than stellar at times, Romero again, and what the fuck Bentancur was doing for their winner is anyone’s guess.

I was critical after Ange's in game management last week (despite the result), and this week I agree with others, again, he was slow to react and by the time he did they made less sense. Bentancur should have gone off at HT, he was like a turtle in a fucking windsock, but even if he'd reacted to his plodding by the hour mark, the third goal doesn't happen. Bissouna and Sarr make sense between 46-60 minutes, to help us get back some midfield control, but by the time he made them, only one of them made sense Bissouma/Bentancur because by then we needed goals again.

Games like this show the frailty of having Kulusevski in the 8, especially with Bentancur as the 6, our midfield turned to fucking mush second half.
 
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Interestingly even Hurzeler said it wasn't tactics:

Fabian Hürzeler, the Brighton head coach, said the turnaround had more to do with spirit than tactics. “They showed character, they showed personality and the reaction was great in the second half,” Hürzeler said. “Being ruthless is the most important thing, in the duels we were not ruthless [in the first half] and if you win the personal duels and get the ball into the opponent’s half you get self-confidence — that was the biggest change.”



Honestly I think this was more a case of a team 0-2 down at home having nothing to lose and coming out and throwing the kitchen sink at it.

Brighton are a team who have similar ethos to us, proactive, aggressive football. I think they have some decent players too. If I was a neutral I'd have found it a pretty fascinating bun fight, intense etc.
 
i actually like the two 10s in midfield, i think we need that to play anything decent. its all very workman like without it and too much emphasis on width when we know we dont have the wide players to play like that. with our wide forwards as limited as they are, we need the creativity boost.
Good point. My natural inclination is to want to play a double pivot (partly because we don't have a natural all-round #6) but that would mean removing one of the #10s, and we all know how garbage our wide players are at creating anything.
 
Good point. My natural inclination is to want to play a double pivot (partly because we don't have a natural all-round #6) but that would mean removing one of the #10s, and we all know how garbage our wide players are at creating anything.
yea i do like the double pivot, screens the defence nicely and (should) make you harder to beat. biss, sarr and bentancur are midfielders that need that extra man with them back there.

i know weve played a pile of shit recently but ive enjoyed maddison and kulu being out there together, theyve been allowed to express themselves. its been enjoyable as hes actually come away from his rigid set up of forcing thr wide players out to the sideline and bringing up porro and udogie and expecting them to do the jobs of 10s...braindead stuff. this is the guy who thinks subs are irrelevant tho so braindead stuff is standard.
 
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I think the people looking for some tactical masterclass by Hurzeler is just natural coping mechanism.

The truth is much harder to swallow - we made some poor individual mistakes in defence but, worse than that, rather than respond and go again the team collectively gave up.

Which is much more concerning.
 
Games like this show the frailty of having Kulusevski in the 8, especially with Bentancur as the 6, our midfield turned to fucking mush second half.
I hinted at this in the Kulu4sale thread...there's a difference playing this player when things are going your way versus not.
Interestingly even Hurzeler said it wasn't tactics:
First off, I'm not sure I've seen anyone suggesting it was solely a tactical tweak that changed things around. It seemed more application in that they didn't come into the game trying to specifically stop the things we do and they didn't seem to deviate in the 2nd half from what they did in the first but put more ass into their efforts.

Isn't that damning? After getting worked a bit in the 1st all they really needed to do was compete a bit harder to do what they did.
if you win the personal duels and get the ball into the opponent’s half you get self-confidence — that was the biggest change.
And this statement suggests application was but one of the changes but the one with the determinative effect.
 
I think the people looking for some tactical masterclass by Hurzeler is just natural coping mechanism.

The truth is much harder to swallow - we made some poor individual mistakes in defence but, worse than that, rather than respond and go again the team collectively gave up.

Which is much more concerning.
Week to week there isn't that much to break down. We only play one way and don't make significant adjustments.

Opponents can try one game plan and if it doesn't work, they can keep shifting things until they find something that does work, because we remain rooted to doing what we do.

They get several chances to find the right plan, we only ever have the same plan.

And as others have stated, if we do anything in response to the score it will be late substitutions that are often puzzling and sometimes seem to run against the character of the match.
 

View: https://x.com/GreavesGhost/status/1843275749454917857?t=39VPZ14_bbaseTaRU20WUw&s=19

No idea what happened at half time.

But look at this half arsed press to kick off the second half. Poor fucking Solanke.



View: https://x.com/GreavesGhost/status/1843276852892418242?t=-AW4CLa_4mey9BeXfNv3Lg&s=19

Second goal is basically the same.



I don't know if it was pure laziness. Players starting to believe their own hype or if they were simply shattered.

Either way, there's not much you can really take tactically from this game outside of the players letting everyone down.
 

View: https://x.com/GreavesGhost/status/1843275749454917857?t=39VPZ14_bbaseTaRU20WUw&s=19

No idea what happened at half time.

But look at this half arsed press to kick off the second half. Poor fucking Solanke.



View: https://x.com/GreavesGhost/status/1843276852892418242?t=-AW4CLa_4mey9BeXfNv3Lg&s=19

Second goal is basically the same.



I don't know if it was pure laziness. Players starting to believe their own hype or if they were simply shattered.

Either way, there's not much you can really take tactically from this game outside of the players letting everyone down.


Poor pressing absolutely, but the individual defending on every goal is fucking schoolboy stuff.

Porro just lets Mitoma cross, Udogie shanks a clearance. Then the second one first Bentancur and Romero fuck about then VDV and Udogie fuck about. Third is the same, Udogie and then Bentancur fuck about.

I’ve said this many times, but none of our first choice back 4 are great 1v1 defenders. VDV is probably the best of the bunch, but he can’t win headers and in the box he’s a bit meh too.

I get that the problems start way before they get to the defence in many of these cases, but it would just be a bit more reassuring to have defenders who can actually defend when it gets there
 

Good notes, but we have to start turning these into results in the next few months.

But these stats show why anyone comparing this start to the season with Nuno’s start just doesn’t know football. We were fucking dreadful under Nuno and I think sitting on -5 GD with terrible advanced stats. Typically GD will average out over a full season and teams with a high GD will pick up the points to match.

This season, we’ve definitely figured out how to play well. We just haven’t figured out how to get results. Need to see some progress there in the next few months.
 
I think the people looking for some tactical masterclass by Hurzeler is just natural coping mechanism.

The truth is much harder to swallow - we made some poor individual mistakes in defence but, worse than that, rather than respond and go again the team collectively gave up.

Which is much more concerning.
It's tactics that's the problem alright...just not Brighton's. It's our tactical rigidity and the way we set up that allowed what happened second half to happen. It really is who we are, so the best and only thing to do is simply accept it and hope the people who say it will be alright and we just need faith and eventually this year two transformation sweeps us to a title of some kind.
 
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