Manager Ange Postecoglou

[Deuterz]

You can change Ange but it won’t fix Spurs. What is Spurs best established line up at the moment

Kinski
Porro Grey Davies Spence
Bissouma Bentancur Sarr
Kulusevski Richie Son

This side would struggle against most Championship teams. Just because they wear the Tottenham shirt and play in a big stadium doesn’t make them elite players. Of all those players only Son and Kulu have elite class. Maybe Porro.

If you want to sack Ange for circumstances outside his control go for it but until the injuries situation improves no manager in the world will turn this around. The only thing that will turn this around is players returning from injury and investment. I know everyone is angry that 3rd string Spurs got flogged by world class Liverpool, but it is human nature to seek out scapegoats when things don’t go your way. Sometimes it’s the President, sometimes it’s god, sometimes its Ange.

Also the win % attack on Ange is a fallacy. He earned his % in salary capped leagues where most teams are monetarily equal, unlike EPL where you have major swings in investment between the top and bottom clubs. A better stat would be his win % relative to other managers in those leagues, and he is in the very top echelons of those leagues

Click to shrink...

I really hope there's a purge of the cultists when he's finally gone because jesus christ these kind of ridiculous arguments are so, so tiresome.

Basically that entire XI would be stars in the championship. Gray out of position was one of the best players in the league. And again, nobody fucking cares about Ange's win % in the kangaroo first division or for Celtic in Scotland. NOBODY.

 

[Dudski]

It’s called growing pains. Grey, Bergval , Moore have only played the minutes they have because of injury. Ange wouldn’t have played them anywhere near as much otherwise. Bergval was agitating for game time before the injury crisis. For their ages they are really great and advanced and that but probably Championship level in terms of their development. Obviously their ceiling is much higher than Championship.

Click to shrink...

They will be really good but the mix of players is still not good. Part of their development is to have older players around them to learn from. They just aren't there anymore, perhaps because of the emphasis on cutting the wage bill. And I do think Spurs are too Ange-centric.

 

[Guy From The Lane]

Grey, Bergvall, Kinski, Moore are all developing players and honestly none are at yet at the standard they would walk into any PL starting side. Their opportunities for sustained regular football have come through injuries not merit. They have had some decent moment and some good games, but what player in the premier league hasn’t? That’s not criticism just an honest assessment of where they are at in terms of their development curve.

Additionally Sarr is just a plodder who can and never will reach elite levels of football. Bentancur is not cut out for the EPL and Bissouma appears to have talent but for whatever reason isn’t performing. The big issue for these three is they cannot operate in tight spaces and under high press, hence the constant turnovers.

So you have 3-4 developing players who are not yet EPL ready (at least in a top 4, let’s win trophies sense) , and a midfield trio who can’t handle pressure or high press. That is a big problem for a team and manager that wants to be possession dominant. But it doesn’t matter what tactics, formation, or style Ange’s played against Liverpool, they were always going to loss.

Spurs major problems are personnel, not managerial or coaching staff. That isn’t to say that Ange isn’t a problem, he may be out of his depth , and he isn’t beyond criticism. He seems to really like Sarr because of his “running power” and he’s said odd things like “the difference between the top and bottom players isn’t physical it’s mental”, which is just untrue.

But even if you change Ange, it won’t fix Spurs. Spurs will continue to stink it up until the key experienced players return from injury. Even then they might not be good enough to challenge Woolwich and Liverpool, but with the addition of Tel and return of Odobert that may improve things. Ultimately Spurs won’t challenge for the title or trophies until they sign a dominant central midfielder, someone who is reliable with the ball at their feet and can maintain possession under pressure.

I’d be inclined to stick with Ange for another season. With a full healthy squad Spurs willl undeniably improve and be top 8, whether Ange is still the right man to take Spurs into top 4 and trophy contenders is yet to be determined.

Vicario
Porro Romero VDV Spence
Kulusevski ? Maddison
Tel Solanke Son

Click to shrink...

I do agree with most of your points, especially in the midfield - I'm bored of watching the midfield lose possession via very poor passing which then forces a counter attack while leaving our defenders with their pants down.

"Spurs major problems are personnel, not managerial or coaching staff" - I am taking by personnel you mean players, Managerial to mean upper management or the Ange or the directors et al & Coaching you mean Ange?

If not & please correct me - I do believe they are a factor but when you 'major problems' it's a little vague as I don't know exactly what you mean by major so I'll assume you're statement is giving 80% of the issues Spurs are facing to the Personell? again please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not trying to be pedantic or hostile merely wanting to understand your statement better).

For me I believe Ange does have some faults in his approach - I've always said 'Ange Ball' is a high risk system as it does emphasise on hard attacking (our goal difference proves this) very much like Vincent Kompany's system, of which also lead to a heavy emphasis on goals but I'm not saying the tactics are the same they just lead to more goals. As you have said the midfield especially isn't equipped well enough to deal with 'Ange Ball' as Biss tends to fail passes to others via the 'Double Vertical Diamond' phase Ange likes to attack with, now if I see that the midfield isn't coping well with this as a Coach/Manager I would identify that & try to mitigate it within my tactics. I also tend to find Ange doesn't utilise substitutes well enough & by that I mean they always come on rather late for my liking.

I agree the only reason we are playing our youth players which have also been out of position is due to injuries & let's face it your 100% correct in your assessment - "Their opportunities for sustained regular football have come through injuries not merit" I don't have an issue with this but it's up to the coaching approach off the pitch to get them at a standard to be able to play in the system Ange wants to implement.

I don't think you & I disagree on much but if I am wrong please feel free to let me know.

 

[spurulina]

Game plans and formations are tactics—the strategy is what wins wars.

Click to shrink...

It's football not a war. In war you don't need to have a single pitched battle to win. In war you can lose major battles and still win.
In football we have to play matches to win, there's no avoiding this. We have to win major matches in knock out comps and the league to win anything, there's no avoiding this.

If you think our grand strategy is to successfully rebuild after bowing out of every cup run, finishing 14th or lower and having our record worst season in decades, you must be trolling.

Tottenham is a money making machine. Every other club in the same financial position as us had had recent 'painful rebuilds', and none of those clubs that had results like us kept their managers. The clubs that didn't sack their manager were much more competitive than we are now and weren't breaking decades old records for terrible performances.

 

[rusty83]

I really hope there's a purge of the cultists when he's finally gone because jesus christ these kind of ridiculous arguments are so, so tiresome.

Basically that entire XI would be stars in the championship. Gray out of position was one of the best players in the league. And again, nobody fucking cares about Ange's win % in the kangaroo first division or for Celtic in Scotland. NOBODY.

Click to shrink...

lol about Grey. He’s been an excellent stand in and highly versatile during the injury crisis but no one really knows what his best position is. He offers nothing in attack, no creativity, can’t cross or dribble. But he’s 18 and playing out of positions so who knows? He’s elite for his age but is current levels are probably Championship level , which isn’t actually a criticism because not many 18yo are good enough to play in the Championship. Same with Bergvall, these guys need at least 2-3 more years developing before they are truly ready to compete with Arse, Liverpool etc.

 

[Deuterz]

lol about Grey. He’s been an excellent stand in and highly versatile during the injury crisis but no one really knows what his best position is. He offers nothing in attack, no creativity, can’t cross or dribble. But he’s 18 and playing out of positions so who knows? He’s elite for his age but is current levels are probably Championship level , which isn’t actually a criticism because not many 18yo are good enough to play in the Championship. Same with Bergvall, these guys need at least 2-3 more years developing before they are truly ready to compete with Arse, Liverpool etc.

Click to shrink...

Compete with Arse and Liverpool? We are 14th in the league. We are worried about competing with fucking Fulham under the fraud clown.

And what do you mean "lol about Gray" ya big cultist? In the season before he joined us he was Championship young player of the season and made the championship team of the season. You said our team would "struggle" in the championship". Maybe under Ange but under almost nobody else.

 

[Malibu]

Can I just ask who, exactly, you're referring to?

Which players were better under Conte than they have been under Ange?

I'm not necessarily disputing your thesis but I can't really think of an example - even Son was vastly better last year than he was the season before under Conte (he was playing injured for Conte tbf)

Or have I got this wrong and the previous regime doesn't even factor into the equation?

Click to shrink...

I’m referring to players’ performances in Ange’s first season compared to his second season with us. The likes of Udogie, Romero, Porro, Sarr & Kulusevski , when available, performed better last season, in my opinion, than they have done this season.

Btw, I wasn’t comparing Ange to Conte. I’m not a fan of both of them.

 

[Malibu]

Unsurprisingly I’d like to see him with a fully fit squad again and see the season out.
However if we’re out of the cups and the dismal league form continues………
Welcome home Ange.

Click to shrink...

To be honest, I can’t really see us having a fully fit squad before the season ends, although I hope we do.

Over the last few games, we’ve lost VDV (again), Radu , and Richarlison (again) before most of the injured have returned to the squad.

 

[OziBeerMan]

You can take the racist little piggy-pog Kerr back too!!!

Click to shrink...

Nah you can keep her. Can’t stand the bitch.

 

[MemphisWill]

With a full healthy squad Spurs willl undeniably improve and be top 8

Click to shrink...

Are you saying we'll be top 8 this season?

 

[rusty83]

Compete with Arse and Liverpool? We are 14th in the league. We are worried about competing with fucking Fulham under the fraud clown.

And what do you mean "lol about Gray" ya big cultist? In the season before he joined us he was Championship young player of the season and made the championship team of the season. You said our team would "struggle" in the championship". Maybe under Ange but under almost nobody else.

Click to shrink...

You are 14th because of all the injuries, not because of Ange. Your two central defenders and GK have been missing for months, and you’ve had to rely on an 18yo and a 31yo squad filler playing out of position to plug the gap. Additionally you have at least 7 other injuries, including at least 4 who are regular starters. That means at least 7 of your starting 11 are down. Even the subs bench is down to bare bones due to injuries to second string players. This is going to significantly impact any side, it’s not possible to play at the highest levels of football with a quasi development/second string unit and maintain high performance for an extended period. You’re confused if you think Tottenham’s second string, development team is better than Fulham. They aren’t. They are actually worse. Worse than Brentford. Possibly worse than Leicester. No, wearing the Tottenham jersey doesn’t magically give you capability. As I said before just because you play in a big stadium doesn’t mean your players are elite.

As for Archie’s award it just means he preformed as the best young player in the EFL. It doesn’t say anything about his ability or readiness for the PL. Stacks of championship players of the season and team of the season have never made it in the PL.

So you can change Ange, but not even Slot or Pep can take a second string development side and make them play good football at the elite level.

 

[DJ Check Complete]

To be honest, I can’t really see us having a fully fit squad before the season ends, although I hope we do.

Over the last few games, we’ve lost VDV (again), Radu , and Richarlison (again) before most of the injured have returned to the squad.

Click to shrink...

Because Postecglou’s method is to train at maximum intensity in between games. He had lots of muscle injuries at his last three clubs and has repeated this at Spurs. Our smallish squad, his refusal to use rested players while playing non stop intensity football has left us near relegation with half a squad. Until we change managers it will just continue. We are well past the point where we should be hoping he will turn it around.

 

[OziBeerMan]

Because Postecglou’s method is to train at maximum intensity in between games.

Click to shrink...

This is factually incorrect and annoys the shit out of me. The team barely trains due to the heavy schedule. Ange has been on record several times explaining how light the training is and joking that he could partake in it, to dispel this myth.

 

[DJ Check Complete]

You are 14th because of all the injuries, not because of Ange. Your two central defenders and GK have been missing for months, and you’ve had to rely on an 18yo and a 31yo squad filler playing out of position to plug the gap. Additionally you have at least 7 other injuries, including at least 4 who are regular starters. That means at least 7 of your starting 11 are down. Even the subs bench is down to bare bones due to injuries to second string players. This is going to significantly impact any side, it’s not possible to play at the highest levels of football with a quasi development/second string unit and maintain high performance for an extended period. You’re confused if you think Tottenham’s second string, development team is better than Fulham. They aren’t. They are actually worse. Worse than Brentford. Possibly worse than Leicester. No, wearing the Tottenham jersey doesn’t magically give you capability. As I said before just because you play in a big stadium doesn’t mean your players are elite.

As for Archie’s award it just means he preformed as the best young player in the EFL. It doesn’t say anything about his ability or readiness for the PL. Stacks of championship players of the season and team of the season have never made it in the PL.

So you can change Ange, but not even Slot or Pep can take a second string development side and make them play good football at the elite level.

Click to shrink...

There is a well reported direct correlation between Postecoglou’s training and our injuries. I think you’re right that his hands are tied with the quality of our second string players but as manager he is largely responsible for this mess.

 

[DJ Check Complete]

This is factually incorrect and annoys the shit out of me. The team barely trains due to the heavy schedule. Ange has been on record several times explaining how light the training is and joking that he could partake in it, to dispel this myth.

Click to shrink...

it’s not incorrect; the effects of intense training, lack of rotation and schedule have been widely reported. They may have reduced the intensity recently, but the long term effects of this approach have reached full disaster in recent months.

 

[rusty83]

was

There is a well reported direct correlation between Postecoglou’s training and our injuries. I think you’re right that his hands are tied with the quality of our second string players but as manager he is largely responsible for this mess.

Click to shrink...

What do you mean well reported? Angry fans on the internet?

There’s no “direct correlation” ffs, it’s just angry fans needing to scapegoat Ange for anything and everything.

 

[DJ Check Complete]

was


What do you mean well reported? Angry fans on the internet?

There’s no “direct correlation” ffs, it’s just angry fans needing to scapegoat Ange for anything and everything.

Click to shrink...

Between having a small squad (on Levy), increased club and international games and having a physically demanding manager is pretty much the definition of a direct correlation.

“The 59-year-old likes his squad to train with the same intensity they play games. Training sessions are shorter compared to under previous head coaches but the squad’s physical output is greater. When they participate in drills, assistant coaches watch on from the sidelines and when a ball is cleared they immediately roll a fresh one back in — there is no time for respite. Physically overpowering the opponent is a cornerstone of Postecoglou’s style and this requires a period of adaptation for the players’ bodies to get up to speed.”

Inside the injury crisis that threatens to wreck Tottenham’s season

Spurs had high hopes for this season, but an ever-worsening injury crisis has stifled them - could it have been avoided?

www.nytimes.com

 

[SpursDNA]

What do you mean well reported? Angry fans on the internet?

There’s no “direct correlation” ffs, it’s just angry fans needing to scapegoat Ange for anything and everything.

Click to shrink...

How about a quote from Ange himself about injuries, Ange-ball and training . Good enuf for ya?

Ange Postecoglou admits Celtic injuries come from training demands as he insists it's 'not possible' to protect players​

Asked if he would temper the training and playing style to protect his players from injury, he added: “No, it’s not possible. It’s a by-product of the team we want to be and it’s part of the process.

Ange Postecoglou admits his Celtic training demands can bring injuries

Kyogo Furuhashi and Albian Ajeti both limped off with injuries in the win over Real Betis.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

 

[Richard Arlison]

Between having a small squad (on Levy), increased club and international games and having a physically demanding manager is pretty much the definition of a direct correlation.

“The 59-year-old likes his squad to train with the same intensity they play games. Training sessions are shorter compared to under previous head coaches but the squad’s physical output is greater. When they participate in drills, assistant coaches watch on from the sidelines and when a ball is cleared they immediately roll a fresh one back in — there is no time for respite. Physically overpowering the opponent is a cornerstone of Postecoglou’s style and this requires a period of adaptation for the players’ bodies to get up to speed.”

Inside the injury crisis that threatens to wreck Tottenham’s season

Spurs had high hopes for this season, but an ever-worsening injury crisis has stifled them - could it have been avoided?

www.nytimes.com

Click to shrink...

“The squads physical output is greater “

How the fuck is that journo claiming to know that? Did get get access to running data from training sessions of every team?
Conte and Poch used to do double sessions and both of them longer than a 90 min game. Willing the bet the physical load was higher under both.

“Physically overpowering the opponent is a cornerstone of be Postecoglou style”

Well, thank you Captain Obvious. Now find me a Premier League coach who doesn’t want to physically overpower the opponent. It’s the cornerstone of the whole fucking league.

I’m not excusing Ange of the mentality and approach against Liverpool but some the narratives that get spun are just the biggest load of nothing.

 

[Richard Arlison]

How about a quote from Ange himself about injuries, Ange-ball and training . Good enuf for ya?

Ange Postecoglou admits Celtic injuries come from training demands as he insists it's 'not possible' to protect players​

Asked if he would temper the training and playing style to protect his players from injury, he added: “No, it’s not possible. It’s a by-product of the team we want to be and it’s part of the process.

Ange Postecoglou admits his Celtic training demands can bring injuries

Kyogo Furuhashi and Albian Ajeti both limped off with injuries in the win over Real Betis.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Click to shrink...

In the first season yes, when players adapt to the intensity.

I don’t get why this is still a debate. We are a PL club, trying to be the fittest and fastest, most hard working is what every coach wants. That will always come with injuries.