• The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Management Ange Postecoglou

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

Lancelot Link said:
It’s all relative. How is winning a League Cup or the Conference the same level as being second in hardest league in the world or last four of the hardest club tournament in the world? If we want club to gain prestige and respect as a top club it’s PL and CL where you earn it
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


We already gained that supposed prestige under Poch, where did that get us? Are we respected as a club for it? Not sure about you but I don't feel like I support a club that is respected.

If we'd won a league cup and a Europa League during the Poch years but never made that CL Final we'd be much better off for it right now. Especially in terms of respect.
 
What staggers me is that Aus based yids are in line with what most of you in the UK are thinking about AP. The patriotism is no longer relevant. He's not cut for the job.

yet Aus based fans from other clubs defend him still, and not in a laugh at spurs by defending the coach kind of way. Genuine patriotism. The guy isn't the issue, Spurs as a club have fucked him over.

Where that falls down is that Levy and ENIC have owned us for nearly a quarter of a century, and since 2008 managers here have got us European qualification nearly every season. Including Jose and Conte who expect more than just that.

So to be 16th, having lost over half our league games for the first time since 1934 has our woes this season firmly on the man in the managers position. How my countrymen can defend him. ENIC aren't why we're 16th and falling further. Ange Postecoglou is the reason.
 
Art Vandelay said:
What staggers me is that Aus based yids are in line with what most of you in the UK are thinking about AP. The patriotism is no longer relevant. He's not cut for the job.

yet Aus based fans from other clubs defend him still, and not in a laugh at spurs by defending the coach kind of way. Genuine patriotism. The guy isn't the issue, Spurs as a club have fucked him over.

Where that falls down is that Levy and ENIC have owned us for nearly a quarter of a century, and since 2008 managers here have got us European qualification nearly every season. Including Jose and Conte who expect more than just that.

So to be 16th, having lost over half our league games for the first time since 1934 has our woes this season firmly on the man in the managers position. How my countrymen can defend him. ENIC aren't why we're 16th and falling further. Ange Postecoglou is the reason.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The ironic thing is that this is also the first season where Levy has really been under scrutiny from some astute folk in the media. There's long been a narrative that us fans aren't grateful for all that he has given us. Now they're seeing that Levy is not running this club with the attention to detail that elite football clubs need in order to challenge for the top prizes. He's now recognised as the head honcho of a filthy rich company that fleeces fans who are paying a premium to sit in his entertainment venue but watch little that can be called entertaining.

I can see why Levy hired Ange and unfortunately I can see why he hasn't fired him. Toxic little wanker.
 
Cranston said:
Ah, I see what you're up to.

An elegant sleight of hand.

So, after 18 months of remorselessly shilling for Ange and watching us plummet ever further down the table, you're now repackaging yourself as an arch-pragmatist, so you can laud an EL win as evidence of you having backed the right man.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Eh?

Always said the same thing about winning.

Is that what everyone is so afraid of? Spurs winning the EL proving them wrong about Ange?

I can tell you now, I'd be too busy celebrating after the biggest success for this club in 40 years. Making a snide post to say I was right and you were wrong would be the last thing on my mind.

Fwiw, I would sack him even if we did win it. Not sure I believe the club will but I don't see him continuing at this club.

But after Ange I don't want to go back to some Nuno/Conte/Jose type that is supposedly pragmatic to win because that doesn't win at this club. You need an attacking manager who plays football that Spurs fans like watching if you want them to get enough patience to even stand a chance of ever winning here.
 
Richard Arlison said:
It's not ignoring any context or expectations.

It's dealing with the facts. the context and expectations you are mentioning are convenient ways to distract from the fact that sport is about winning.

Sure, we all understand that Burnley aren't going to win the PL the season they are promoted but what is the point in getting promoted to the PL if the goal isn't to eventually win it?

If they avoid relegation they have achieved an objective on their path to winning the PL. if their only objective is to be in the PL then what's the fucking point?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is a load of mental gymnastics.
 
_mehstg said:
Agreed but for fun

Eriksen 11
Dier 4
Alli 5
Wanyama 11
Lloris 12
Total = 43

Sanchez = 42

And spot on with the Dier comments... how can one of our rejects be a regular for the Bayern Munich. Make it make sense without using the words farmers league.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In fairness 22 year old Dier was a lot more mobile than the 31 year old we see today.

But he had a decent football brain. After the season he got all the injuries he never really looked the same against physically.

But as with most of that squad, Poch got the most out of him and improved him.
 
Richard Arlison said:
Eh?

Always said the same thing about winning.

Is that what everyone is so afraid of? Spurs winning the EL proving them wrong about Ange?

I can tell you now, I'd be too busy celebrating after the biggest success for this club in 40 years. Making a snide post to say I was right and you were wrong would be the last thing on my mind.

Fwiw, I would sack him even if we did win it. Not sure I believe the club will but I don't see him continuing at this club.

But after Ange I don't want to go back to some Nuno/Conte/Jose type that is supposedly pragmatic to win because that doesn't win at this club. You need an attacking manager who plays football that Spurs fans like watching if you want them to get enough patience to even stand a chance of ever winning here.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Fair enough. Although disagree that a particular type of football will only lead to results with us. There’s no reason a defensive approach couldn’t work. Simply need a footballing operation that supports that approach.

And I’m not worried about being proven wrong about Ange. He’s awful. I’m worried that a win means Levy will keep him and we throw another season away on an incompetent manager.

But let’s cross that bridge if and when we get to it.
 
Matt1882 said:
I was watching him pull of magnificent "no look" pass backs that sent Salah clean through on goal at Wembley.
Just because Salah didn't score and there's no such thing as a "Dier gag reel" on youtube, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It did. And then there were the more subtle problems with him where he never stepped forward to win any loose ball he should have been sweeping up, and often stood off attackers rather than close them down and commit. Because a Toby, or a Jan, or a Hugo cleaned up that mess, it generally got forgotten.
But it happened, most matches.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Matt1882 said:
I was watching him pull of magnificent "no look" pass backs that sent Salah clean through on goal at Wembley.
Just because Salah didn't score and there's no such thing as a "Dier gag reel" on youtube, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It did. And then there were the more subtle problems with him where he never stepped forward to win any loose ball he should have been sweeping up, and often stood off attackers rather than close them down and commit. Because a Toby, or a Jan, or a Hugo cleaned up that mess, it generally got forgotten.
But it happened, most matches.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Thats nice for you!

But we are specifically taking about the 16/17 season where he played the most minutes apart from Eriksen, more than Toby and Jan and was a key reason we lost so few games.
2nd most minutes in the league. He was a key player.

This team frequently gets called the best we had and full of world class players on here. Should have won the league is the mantra.

But yet at the same time. “Eric Dier was a load of shit.”

What was it? Best ever team? Or actually just players over performing their natural level.
 
Bazali said:
Which breeds a winning mentality!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hasn't for us.
Graham won it 99
9 year wait for another one when Ramos won it.
Been 17 years since then.

I would say the opposite. A random cup win does not breed a winning mentality. Being consistently good over a season of 38 games breeds a winning mentality. Not losing very often in that period builds a strong team that will, eventually, go on to win cups. Despite Poch's side not winning a trophy, we were DAMN close. 2 title pushes, a league cup final and a Champions League final. Literally minutes away from bigger things. Those sides, let's not forget, went deep into various cups and still managed to qualify for Europe through the league every season.

Herclueless said:
I was always dubious about a Poch return, because whilst his original stint was easily the best all round period of following Spurs in my lifetime, the end was a very steady downward spiral, over a prolonged duration. It didn;t seem like a hiccup, and there was little to suggest things were going to turn around.

His time at PSG means nothing at all, it's likely even Ange would manage to win things there. His time at Chelsea is more meaningful, because he took over a mess, things looked pretty poor initially, but he got them going eventually. However, that only really mirrors his time at Spurs, had he remained in charge there's every possibility things would have peaked and then soured just like here.

Now though, I'd be all in on having him back, solely because of how inept Ange is. Poch at his worst is still magnitudes more capable than this turnip.

As fans, we probably need to drop this notion of getting straight back to threatening the top end of the table, for a couple of seasons at least. Not that it's impossible, but we should focus on getting back to being able to walk before we expect to be running, because at present Ange has conditioned this group of athletes to bum shuffle across the ground like a dog trying to wipe it's arse on the carpet.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

IMO, a successful Poch team is young and full of fit players who have not yet become household names. Once they become aware of their talent, and are wanted by other clubs, they're less willing to work as hard as the younger players.
IMO, the tough rebuild was Poch saying some household names might have to go. Names like Kane, Eriksen, Dier, Rose, possibly Jan by then. It would have been very tough for Spurs to manage that PR.

Jaynola said:
2nd in PL + CL semis > 16th + EL win.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

4th in the PL and CL final too. There's no need to literally throw a season down the shitter to go deep in Europe. Arse are 2nd and at the same level as us in the CL.

Gatsby said:
Thing is if he went to Newcastle, we'd be crying as to why we didn't sign him.

He's by no means a shit player, just in a system that doesn't get the best out of him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Jimmy Fallon Yes GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon

Same applies to a lot of under performing players.

Gatsby said:
Not getting a trophy trumps winning a trophy?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It just shows that a good manager can fight on multiple fronts.
We finished 5th last season but had no Europe and were out of the domestic cups at pretty much the first hurdle.
AngeLOSS can't manager multiple competitions.
 
WillWilliams said:
Thats nice for you!

But we are specifically taking about the 16/17 season where he played the most minutes apart from Eriksen, more than Toby and Jan and was a key reason we lost so few games.
2nd most minutes in the league. He was a key player.

This team frequently gets called the best we had and full of world class players on here. Should have won the league is the mantra.

But yet at the same time. “Eric Dier was a load of shit.”

What was it? Best ever team? Or actually just players over performing their natural level.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

He was 1 of a team. He was not THE team.
A player like Kane winning games out of nowhere with his goals can claim to be a major reason we succeeded.
Dier just being on the pitch can not. Show me a game where he stood out.
 
Richard Arlison said:
It's not ignoring any context or expectations.

It's dealing with the facts. the context and expectations you are mentioning are convenient ways to distract from the fact that sport is about winning.

Sure, we all understand that Burnley aren't going to win the PL the season they are promoted but what is the point in getting promoted to the PL if the goal isn't to eventually win it?

If they avoid relegation they have achieved an objective on their path to winning the PL. if their only objective is to be in the PL then what's the fucking point?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Of sport in general?

There's all kinds of aspects to it beyond just winning, fitness, entertainment, money. Success of failure can be different from person to person on this, there's not really any objective right or wrong.

Would you call every person that took part in the London marathon but didn't finish first a failure?

If you're following Spurs and are going to get to the end of your life and consider it a failure or a waste of time if we haven't conquered all and forced the other sides in the world to give up because we're so good then you're going to end up disappointed.

All football is is a never ending sequence of occasional successes, some small like winning the match on a weekend, some big like winning a cup, and some massive like winning a League or the CL, and on the flip side there's always a failure around the corner, losing the next match, knocked out of a Cup, etc.

There's no definitive success/failure really, because there's always a next season.

I've lost track of where I'm going with this now tbh.
 
Richard Arlison said:
It's not ignoring any context or expectations.

It's dealing with the facts. the context and expectations you are mentioning are convenient ways to distract from the fact that sport is about winning.

Sure, we all understand that Burnley aren't going to win the PL the season they are promoted but what is the point in getting promoted to the PL if the goal isn't to eventually win it?

If they avoid relegation they have achieved an objective on their path to winning the PL. if their only objective is to be in the PL then what's the fucking point?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Jesus mate.

Winning is great but its obviously not the only objective. It was actually fun to be a fan of the club under Poch, every week was exciting. The sport is about entertainment, its a leisure activity for fans. Being pumped to go watch Spurs play every week and feeling likely to win against our rivals (and win bragging rights against them etc) is an objective. Doing well in the league across a season is an objective.

It was an infinitely less depressing team to support under Poch, which is an achievement because the fans enjoying what they're paying for is hugely important. Obviously very nice if you cap it off with a trophy and its a fucking disgrace this club haven't done that in so long due to the board refusing to go that extra mile.

But the only objective being "win stuff" isn't true for any but very few clubs in world football.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top