Manager Ange Postecoglou

[Cranston]

Eh?

Always said the same thing about winning.

Is that what everyone is so afraid of? Spurs winning the EL proving them wrong about Ange?

I can tell you now, I'd be too busy celebrating after the biggest success for this club in 40 years. Making a snide post to say I was right and you were wrong would be the last thing on my mind.

Fwiw, I would sack him even if we did win it. Not sure I believe the club will but I don't see him continuing at this club.

But after Ange I don't want to go back to some Nuno/Conte/Jose type that is supposedly pragmatic to win because that doesn't win at this club. You need an attacking manager who plays football that Spurs fans like watching if you want them to get enough patience to even stand a chance of ever winning here.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough. Although disagree that a particular type of football will only lead to results with us. There’s no reason a defensive approach couldn’t work. Simply need a footballing operation that supports that approach.

And I’m not worried about being proven wrong about Ange. He’s awful. I’m worried that a win means Levy will keep him and we throw another season away on an incompetent manager.

But let’s cross that bridge if and when we get to it.

 

[WillWilliams]

I was watching him pull of magnificent "no look" pass backs that sent Salah clean through on goal at Wembley.
Just because Salah didn't score and there's no such thing as a "Dier gag reel" on youtube, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It did. And then there were the more subtle problems with him where he never stepped forward to win any loose ball he should have been sweeping up, and often stood off attackers rather than close them down and commit. Because a Toby, or a Jan, or a Hugo cleaned up that mess, it generally got forgotten.
But it happened, most matches.

Click to shrink...

I was watching him pull of magnificent "no look" pass backs that sent Salah clean through on goal at Wembley.
Just because Salah didn't score and there's no such thing as a "Dier gag reel" on youtube, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It did. And then there were the more subtle problems with him where he never stepped forward to win any loose ball he should have been sweeping up, and often stood off attackers rather than close them down and commit. Because a Toby, or a Jan, or a Hugo cleaned up that mess, it generally got forgotten.
But it happened, most matches.

Click to shrink...

Thats nice for you!

But we are specifically taking about the 16/17 season where he played the most minutes apart from Eriksen, more than Toby and Jan and was a key reason we lost so few games.
2nd most minutes in the league. He was a key player.

This team frequently gets called the best we had and full of world class players on here. Should have won the league is the mantra.

But yet at the same time. “Eric Dier was a load of shit.”

What was it? Best ever team? Or actually just players over performing their natural level.

 

[Harrier]

the appointment in the summer needs to be spot on, no weird left field Ange or nuno type appointments when other preferred options dry up.

Click to shrink...

You’d hope that with it being obvious for some time that Ange is on the way out, that we’ve been planning proactively for his successor…….

 

[Matt1882]

Which breeds a winning mentality!

Click to shrink...

Hasn't for us.
Graham won it 99
9 year wait for another one when Ramos won it.
Been 17 years since then.

I would say the opposite. A random cup win does not breed a winning mentality. Being consistently good over a season of 38 games breeds a winning mentality. Not losing very often in that period builds a strong team that will, eventually, go on to win cups. Despite Poch's side not winning a trophy, we were DAMN close. 2 title pushes, a league cup final and a Champions League final. Literally minutes away from bigger things. Those sides, let's not forget, went deep into various cups and still managed to qualify for Europe through the league every season.

I was always dubious about a Poch return, because whilst his original stint was easily the best all round period of following Spurs in my lifetime, the end was a very steady downward spiral, over a prolonged duration. It didn;t seem like a hiccup, and there was little to suggest things were going to turn around.

His time at PSG means nothing at all, it's likely even Ange would manage to win things there. His time at Chelsea is more meaningful, because he took over a mess, things looked pretty poor initially, but he got them going eventually. However, that only really mirrors his time at Spurs, had he remained in charge there's every possibility things would have peaked and then soured just like here.

Now though, I'd be all in on having him back, solely because of how inept Ange is. Poch at his worst is still magnitudes more capable than this turnip.

As fans, we probably need to drop this notion of getting straight back to threatening the top end of the table, for a couple of seasons at least. Not that it's impossible, but we should focus on getting back to being able to walk before we expect to be running, because at present Ange has conditioned this group of athletes to bum shuffle across the ground like a dog trying to wipe it's arse on the carpet.

Click to shrink...

IMO, a successful Poch team is young and full of fit players who have not yet become household names. Once they become aware of their talent, and are wanted by other clubs, they're less willing to work as hard as the younger players.
IMO, the tough rebuild was Poch saying some household names might have to go. Names like Kane, Eriksen, Dier, Rose, possibly Jan by then. It would have been very tough for Spurs to manage that PR.

2nd in PL + CL semis > 16th + EL win.

Click to shrink...

4th in the PL and CL final too. There's no need to literally throw a season down the shitter to go deep in Europe. Arse are 2nd and at the same level as us in the CL.

Thing is if he went to Newcastle, we'd be crying as to why we didn't sign him.

He's by no means a shit player, just in a system that doesn't get the best out of him.

Click to shrink...

Same applies to a lot of under performing players.

Not getting a trophy trumps winning a trophy?

Click to shrink...

It just shows that a good manager can fight on multiple fronts.
We finished 5th last season but had no Europe and were out of the domestic cups at pretty much the first hurdle.
AngeLOSS can't manager multiple competitions.

 

[Matt1882]

Thats nice for you!

But we are specifically taking about the 16/17 season where he played the most minutes apart from Eriksen, more than Toby and Jan and was a key reason we lost so few games.
2nd most minutes in the league. He was a key player.

This team frequently gets called the best we had and full of world class players on here. Should have won the league is the mantra.

But yet at the same time. “Eric Dier was a load of shit.”

What was it? Best ever team? Or actually just players over performing their natural level.

Click to shrink...

He was 1 of a team. He was not THE team.
A player like Kane winning games out of nowhere with his goals can claim to be a major reason we succeeded.
Dier just being on the pitch can not. Show me a game where he stood out.

 

[Herclueless]

It's not ignoring any context or expectations.

It's dealing with the facts. the context and expectations you are mentioning are convenient ways to distract from the fact that sport is about winning.

Sure, we all understand that Burnley aren't going to win the PL the season they are promoted but what is the point in getting promoted to the PL if the goal isn't to eventually win it?

If they avoid relegation they have achieved an objective on their path to winning the PL. if their only objective is to be in the PL then what's the fucking point?

Click to shrink...

Of sport in general?

There's all kinds of aspects to it beyond just winning, fitness, entertainment, money. Success of failure can be different from person to person on this, there's not really any objective right or wrong.

Would you call every person that took part in the London marathon but didn't finish first a failure?

If you're following Spurs and are going to get to the end of your life and consider it a failure or a waste of time if we haven't conquered all and forced the other sides in the world to give up because we're so good then you're going to end up disappointed.

All football is is a never ending sequence of occasional successes, some small like winning the match on a weekend, some big like winning a cup, and some massive like winning a League or the CL, and on the flip side there's always a failure around the corner, losing the next match, knocked out of a Cup, etc.

There's no definitive success/failure really, because there's always a next season.

I've lost track of where I'm going with this now tbh.

 

[Deuterz]

It's not ignoring any context or expectations.

It's dealing with the facts. the context and expectations you are mentioning are convenient ways to distract from the fact that sport is about winning.

Sure, we all understand that Burnley aren't going to win the PL the season they are promoted but what is the point in getting promoted to the PL if the goal isn't to eventually win it?

If they avoid relegation they have achieved an objective on their path to winning the PL. if their only objective is to be in the PL then what's the fucking point?

Click to shrink...

Jesus mate.

Winning is great but its obviously not the only objective. It was actually fun to be a fan of the club under Poch, every week was exciting. The sport is about entertainment, its a leisure activity for fans. Being pumped to go watch Spurs play every week and feeling likely to win against our rivals (and win bragging rights against them etc) is an objective. Doing well in the league across a season is an objective.

It was an infinitely less depressing team to support under Poch, which is an achievement because the fans enjoying what they're paying for is hugely important. Obviously very nice if you cap it off with a trophy and its a fucking disgrace this club haven't done that in so long due to the board refusing to go that extra mile.

But the only objective being "win stuff" isn't true for any but very few clubs in world football.

 

[Richard Arlison]

Fair enough. Although disagree that a particular type of football will only lead to results with us. There’s no reason a defensive approach couldn’t work. Simply need a footballing operation that supports that approach.

Click to shrink...

I would happily take pragmatic football if they actually got their shit together to match the football operations with it. They've never done that tho.

Despite the results atm I'd say probably right now is the closest we have got to that in terms of the academy playing attacking, technical focused, and ball dominant football. I have no idea if Lange and the rest of our football operations are suited to any style of football tbh.

Paratici and Conte seemed more aligned but then Conte complained about club signings all the time so who fucking knows.

Right now, this squad looks like it is slowly being built towards at least attacking, daring football that sends bodies up the pitch. We have shit loads of attacking players and not a serious destroyer type in sight.

Stick to my point tho, we've seen Nuno, Jose, and Conte all fail here and with legitimate world class players in their squads. I can't see that style of football ever working with this fanbase.

And I’m not worried about being proven wrong about Ange. He’s awful. I’m worried that a win means Levy will keep him and we throw another season away on an incompetent manager.

But let’s cross that bridge if and when we get to it.

Click to shrink...

Agree.

The final we can get to. Bilbao at home in a European final is a huge ask.

 

[Matt1882]

In fairness 22 year old Dier was a lot more mobile than the 31 year old we see today.

But he had a decent football brain. After the season he got all the injuries he never really looked the same against physically.

But as with most of that squad, Poch got the most out of him and improved him.

Click to shrink...

Serious question - did you actually watch matches back then?
Like, entire matches, week after week?

 

[Richard Arlison]

Jesus mate.

Winning is great but its obviously not the only objective. It was actually fun to be a fan of the club under Poch, every week was exciting. The sport is about entertainment, its a leisure activity for fans. Being pumped to go watch Spurs play every week and feeling likely to win against our rivals (and win bragging rights against them etc) is an objective. Doing well in the league across a season is an objective.

It was an infinitely less depressing team to support under Poch, which is an achievement because the fans enjoying what they're paying for is hugely important. Obviously very nice if you cap it off with a trophy and its a fucking disgrace this club haven't done that in so long due to the board refusing to go that extra mile.

But the only objective being "win stuff" isn't true for any but very few clubs in world football.

Click to shrink...

The post you are replying to I said "If they avoid relegation they have achieved an objective on their path to winning the PL"

Staying up would be an objective, like getting European football would be for a club like Brighton but the goal of sport is to win.You can set objectives along the way but the whole point of sport is winning.

Second place is the first loser. You have to learn how to deal with failure if you play sport but hiding from it being a failure isn't going to get you any closer to winning.

 

[LLB Part Deux]

Serious question - did you actually watch matches back then?
Like, entire matches, week after week?

Click to shrink...

I did, and would generally concur. Either that or he followed instructions well, as he was pretty fluid moving from CDM to middle of a back three depending on the situation. He didn't make his way into the England squad playing out of position (arguably) because he was shit.

 

[Deuterz]

The post you are replying to I said "If they avoid relegation they have achieved an objective on their path to winning the PL"

Staying up would be an objective, like getting European football would be for a club like Brighton but the goal of sport is to win.You can set objectives along the way but the whole point of sport is winning.

Second place is the first loser. You have to learn how to deal with failure if you play sport but hiding from it being a failure isn't going to get you any closer to winning.

Click to shrink...

It isn't or 99.9% of athletes ever would be failing in their goals.

There are lots of reasons people do sport, and loads of reasons people enjoy the sport of football. Your view is incredibly narrow, its the perspective of the average Madrid fan but not reflective of how most fans view football and what it means to them.

I hugely enjoyed the Pochettino years - hint of regret due to not winning anything but it didn't make it all pointless or a failed objective.

 

[Richard Arlison]

Of sport in general?

There's all kinds of aspects to it beyond just winning, fitness, entertainment, money. Success of failure can be different from person to person on this, there's not really any objective right or wrong.

Would you call every person that took part in the London marathon but didn't finish first a failure?

If you're following Spurs and are going to get to the end of your life and consider it a failure or a waste of time if we haven't conquered all and forced the other sides in the world to give up because we're so good then you're going to end up disappointed.

All football is is a never ending sequence of occasional successes, some small like winning the match on a weekend, some big like winning a cup, and some massive like winning a League or the CL, and on the flip side there's always a failure around the corner, losing the next match, knocked out of a Cup, etc.

There's no definitive success/failure really, because there's always a next season.

I've lost track of where I'm going with this now tbh.

Click to shrink...

The marathon isn't a sport for 99.9% of the people involved in it. For the serious athletes actually competing in it, they re there to win it.

Obviously there are other benefits to getting involved in Sports but the whole point of sport is to try and win. If you fail to win then you also get to learn how to deal with failure.

The problem with this club and I'd day the entire mentality for a league like the PL (and other top leagues tbf) is that it's not about dealing with failure with the goal of succeeding in the future, it's about accepting failure as the only outcome so be happy with what you have.

 

[Deuterz]

I did, and would generally concur. Either that or he followed instructions well, as he was pretty fluid moving from CDM to middle of a back three depending on the situation. He didn't make his way into the England squad playing out of position (arguably) because he was shit.

Click to shrink...

Mate the England squad back then was fucking HORRENDOUS. We had no midfielders either. He got in to CDM in the same tournament a Jack Wilshere who hadn't played for an entire season was our go to rescue man for the Iceland disaster. Wayne Rooney was playing centre mid.

Dier at his absolute best was a decent but very limited utility player but his total lack of mobility has always been a weakness, we just had the athleticism and mobility around him back then.

 

[Richard Arlison]

It isn't or 99.9% of athletes ever would be failing in their goals.

There are lots of reasons people do sport, and loads of reasons people enjoy the sport of football. Your view is incredibly narrow, its the perspective of the average Madrid fan but not reflective of how most fans view football and what it means to them.

I hugely enjoyed the Pochettino years - hint of regret due to not winning anything but it didn't make it all pointless or a failed objective.

Click to shrink...

But they are failing if they don't win. That's why there is only 1 winner and winning is worth working hard for.

 

[Deuterz]

But they are failing if they don't win. That's why there is only 1 winner and winning is worth working hard for.

Click to shrink...

Jesus, tell that to the Paralympian who has worked their entire life to get to that position and overcome a million hurdles to be there.

Sport is about lots of things, its not just win or lose and there are victories found in many elements of it.

Edit: Are Bodo Glimt failing in their objective if they don't win the Europa League? 4k stadium, miniscule budget. Obviously not, they're doing fucking incredibly and their fans will remember it for years and years ...

 

[Richard Arlison]

Jesus, tell that to the Paralympian who has worked their entire life to get to that position and overcome a million hurdles to be there.

Sport is about lots of things, its not just win or lose and there are victories found in many elements of it.

Edit: Are Bodo Glimt failing in their objective if they don't win the Europa League? 4k stadium, miniscule budget. Obviously not, they're doing fucking incredibly and their fans will remember it for years and years ...

Click to shrink...

So a Paralympian who worked their entire life isn't there to win?

Why is a Paralympian any different to anyone working their entire life to qualify for the olympics?

Every single athlete that reaches that level is in the top 1% of the most driven and competitive people on the planet and they are ALL competing to win. All of them, every single time they train or enter a competition.

Yes, if Bodo don't win the the EL then they have failed to win the EL. They might feel better about reaching the SF because they are a small club and they should but they still failed to win it.

 

[Matt1882]

I did, and would generally concur. Either that or he followed instructions well, as he was pretty fluid moving from CDM to middle of a back three depending on the situation. He didn't make his way into the England squad playing out of position (arguably) because he was shit.

Click to shrink...

He was adequate in multiple positions, a great asset to an international tournament squad. A player who can cope at CB, RB and CM is very useful to that.
He was strong and passably quick. He wouldn't be totally left for dead but nowhere near the links of a King or VDV.
He was though, never what I would call an intelligent player. King was intelligent. Toby and Jan were intelligent. They could anticipate moves and cut out the danger before it even happened.
Dier just stands people up and tries to block their direct route to goal. Doesn't really tackle, doesn't really intercept passes. He's maybe another Dawson +5% or so. Dawson looked very good when King was there. Dawson didn't when King wasn't.

 

[Harry Vaginola]

i'm sorry but i just don't get some of you. a fucking europa league cup against minnows in no way erases the pain of losing every other fucking match. it's been 18 months of misery and you guys are gonna go dance around after beating up on the hobbits and the elves? it's just pathetic. there have been many years where many didn't even want to qualify for this shit cup and now we're gonna act like it's worth losing 20+ fucking matches for? gtfoh.. i want to win every week. i want entertainment. i want to talk to my friends about football and banter with the rivals and shit on the losers. i've not been able to do that for months and now i'm supposed to act like winning the middle earth cup makes it all worth it? to me, it's you guys advocating for this cup that don't know what football and sport is all about. pathetic

 

[SpursDNA]

So a Paralympian who worked their entire life isn't there to win?

Why is a Paralympian any different to anyone working their entire life to qualify for the olympics?

Every single athlete that reaches that level is in the top 1% of the most driven and competitive people on the planet and they are ALL competing to win. All of them, every single time they train or enter a competition.

Yes, if Bodo don't win the the EL then they have failed to win the EL. They might feel better about reaching the SF because they are a small club and they should but they still failed to win it.

Click to shrink...

OK - Ricky Bobby

"Dad, you told me if you're not FIRST you're LAST!" ...
"Hell Ricky I was high when I said that ... it doesn't make any sense at all ..."


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20iio0wLpPA