A Philosophical Objection to VAR

Johnboy40

Where's the Kaboom?
Fucking hell. For years all I've heard is people whining about shit offside decisions and conspiracy theories about refs inconsistency ruining football

"all we want is consistency "

We get a system that has pretty much eradicated the incorrect offside decision and now it's

"football isn't supposed to be about consistency"
it hasnt eradicated it. weve seen two this week that were wrong. (one of which was in our favour)

the only way to eradicate it is to be able to capture the image at the precise moment the ball is played.
its still an opinion, that the player is offside. just a better informed one.
 

ILSpur

You gotta trust ole Gibbsy.
Fucking hell. For years all I've heard is people whining about shit offside decisions and conspiracy theories about refs inconsistency ruining football

"all we want is consistency "

We get a system that has pretty much eradicated the incorrect offside decision and now it's

"football isn't supposed to be about consistency"
Yeah, you have a point, but I also think that how VAR is being executed is the real issue.

You could argue that the usage for offsides is the most consistent. It is checked constantly, every goal is checked for it and they have made no doubt about it that they will call offsides for a matter of milimeteres.

But the calls are supposed to correct clear and obvious errors. So, the application of VAR is consistent but you could argue that the application of the law isn't.

The other big issue that gets overlooked more is the lack of consistency in other applocations. It seems to be at random sometimes when it is going to be used for fouls. Because the VAR reviews for offsides take so long and everyone gets so focused on the lines being drawn, we forget about the times when it should maybe be used, if the goal is consistency. So many fouls, potential handballs and off the ball issues aren't reviewed or done so with anything close to consistency.

When VAR is used consistently, the application of the ruling doesn't seem to be used in the spirit of why it was implemented. When it is used more appropriately with the intentions of it, it is used inconsistently.
 

shempz

Supporter
5. Confusion and waiting. Cue two-dimensional renderings of three-dimensional space at, probably, 23 frames a second. I’m still unconvinced of the legitimacy of this.

Nailed it on this one mate. I said earlier that VAR does not have a truly 3D view of the pitch - so a lot of it is guesswork on the VAR operators part.
 
it hasnt eradicated it. weve seen two this week that were wrong. (one of which was in our favour)

the only way to eradicate it is to be able to capture the image at the precise moment the ball is played.
its still an opinion, that the player is offside. just a better informed one.

I said "pretty much". Either way, it's virtually eradicated it, and a vastly more informed one that what went before it, which was one guy with a flag supposedly looking in two opposing places at once and guessing.
 
Yeah, you have a point, but I also think that how VAR is being executed is the real issue.

You could argue that the usage for offsides is the most consistent. It is checked constantly, every goal is checked for it and they have made no doubt about it that they will call offsides for a matter of milimeteres.

But the calls are supposed to correct clear and obvious errors. So, the application of VAR is consistent but you could argue that the application of the law isn't.

The other big issue that gets overlooked more is the lack of consistency in other applocations. It seems to be at random sometimes when it is going to be used for fouls. Because the VAR reviews for offsides take so long and everyone gets so focused on the lines being drawn, we forget about the times when it should maybe be used, if the goal is consistency. So many fouls, potential handballs and off the ball issues aren't reviewed or done so with anything close to consistency.

When VAR is used consistently, the application of the ruling doesn't seem to be used in the spirit of why it was implemented. When it is used more appropriately with the intentions of it, it is used inconsistently.

Personally I think we (and by that I mean mostly the fucking TV football geezer pundits) should all stop whining about VAR for offsides. They've nye on eradicated the constant, almost every match, errors on offside - the linesman concept of offside was always ludicrous anyway, how is he supposed to look in two diametrically opposing directions and assess two different actions simultaneously anyway?

I don't mind if they tinker slightly and say, fore instance, where the lines touch, then benefit to the attacker etc, and I'm sure the software will get even better for measuring both ends of the equation (ball kicked and offside lines).


Now VAR is here, and things can be checked much better, they do need to refine certain laws and applications accordingly. And they need to take out as much of the subjectivity that is still built in as they possibly can. But as you say, this is much about laws as it is VAR.
 
Except it hasn't. VAR is still subject to human error for offside decisions - and has actually made a few errors and been subject to guesswork on the offside 'line'.

Except it has, as I said, "pretty much" eradicated it. It is vastly - and I mean fucking vastly - superior to what went before, and the software will continue to improve.
 

Totti

⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐
VAR isn't the problem.

Its the interpretation of the system. The offside rule needs to be changed. The application of the system itself needs to be used better.

The correct decision regarding the Mane goal yesterday for example. We all saw clearly from the first replay it wasn't handball. It shouldn't take official's 2 minutes to come to a conclusion.

If anything, we need better referees. Anthony Taylor was the referee in charge yesterday, he was also the same guy who gave us a free kick for Gazzaniga kicking Alonso, when VAR overturned his incompetence.
 

Dr Rocktopus

🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃
VAR isn't the problem.

Its the interpretation of the system. The offside rule needs to be changed. The application of the system itself needs to be used better.

The correct decision regarding the Mane goal yesterday for example. We all saw clearly from the first replay it wasn't handball. It shouldn't take official's 2 minutes to come to a conclusion.

If anything, we need better referees. Anthony Taylor was the referee in charge yesterday, he was also the same guy who gave us a free kick for Gazzaniga kicking Alonso, when VAR overturned his incompetence.

There should be three outcomes: ‘Goal’, ‘No Goal’, and ‘Inconclusive’.

If it’s not an obvious decision within 30 seconds it’s inconclusive and whatever the original call was should stand.
 
VAR isn't the problem.

Forgive me my hubris on this, but truly, American sports fans are speaking to you all from the future with respect to replay in sports.

VAR is, and always will be, the problem. It's only going to get worse. And that's just from the perspective of creating clarity and reliability, where it has been an abject failure in all American sports in exactly the way it has done in the PL. But stops and starts and delays and breaks are a natural part of all of those games, to varying degrees. The costs are so much higher in football.

It is creeping death, and it will never get better.
 
If it’s not an obvious decision within 30 seconds it’s inconclusive and whatever the original call was should stand.

A 30 second VAR countdown for goals and red cards would be a lot of fun.

I think what people are mostly asking for is clear and obvious but also quick. It's only sad nerdy attention seeking wankers (refs and pundits) that want millions of people to wait while they paw over the footage frame by frame so they can feel important. Let the VAR refs watch the footage back a couple of times in slow motion and then tell the ref if he ballsed it up. Otherwise let the ref actually referee the game. Get that right and then you can start using it for the other stuff that pisses fans off, like yellow cards, fouls given where no contact was made, corners given or not given the wrong way.
 

Dr Rocktopus

🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃
A 30 second VAR countdown for goals and red cards would be a lot of fun.

I think what people are mostly asking for is clear and obvious but also quick. It's only sad nerdy attention seeking wankers (refs and pundits) that want millions of people to wait while they paw over the footage frame by frame so they can feel important. Let the VAR refs watch the footage back a couple of times in slow motion and then tell the ref if he ballsed it up. Otherwise let the ref actually referee the game. Get that right and then you can start using it for the other stuff that pisses fans off, like yellow cards, fouls given where no contact was made, corners given or not given the wrong way.

The ‘clear and obvious’ part of it is what I support. It’s very difficult of course, because the obvious errors need to be identified in a matter of seconds to avoid games constantly halting. Red and yellow cards should be fine for VAR (again, if it’s immediately obvious). Corners should be a ten or twenty second decision.

The big thing for me would be for VAR to be ok with not being decisive. It’s ok to admit that some decisions are ambiguous, and therefore not something VAR can decide.

For me, Dele’s beautiful goal against United could easily have been ruled out. It was human choice that decided if it was or wasn’t a goal. If it gets to that point it should simply be considered inconclusive.

There’s always going to be disputed decisions in sport. Technology like this should be used to identify the obvious errors that anyone watching would agree with, like Kane’s offside against Brighton.
 

Bazali

😇
it hasnt eradicated it. weve seen two this week that were wrong. (one of which was in our favour)

the only way to eradicate it is to be able to capture the image at the precise moment the ball is played.
its still an opinion, that the player is offside. just a better informed one.

Or 3D Var
 
The ‘clear and obvious’ part of it is what I support. It’s very difficult of course, because the obvious errors need to be identified in a matter of seconds to avoid games constantly halting. Red and yellow cards should be fine for VAR (again, if it’s immediately obvious). Corners should be a ten or twenty second decision.

The big thing for me would be for VAR to be ok with not being decisive. It’s ok to admit that some decisions are ambiguous, and therefore not something VAR can decide.

For me, Dele’s beautiful goal against United could easily have been ruled out. It was human choice that decided if it was or wasn’t a goal. If it gets to that point it should simply be considered inconclusive.

There’s always going to be disputed decisions in sport. Technology like this should be used to identify the obvious errors that anyone watching would agree with, like Kane’s offside against Brighton.

You're right. One of the biggest problems is that the people running VAR want it to be perfect. Or at least appear to be perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to help make things better without ruining the flow of the game.
 

Dr Rocktopus

🎃🎃🎃🎃🎃
You're right. One of the biggest problems is that the people running VAR want it to be perfect. Or at least appear to be perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to help make things better without ruining the flow of the game.

I honestly think we’d all be OK with VAR if the decisions were genuinely obvious. Obvious mistakes will always happen, so if a review shows that someone was a yard offside we can’t really complain.

If it’s unclear, just go for the initial decision. VAR decisions should be something that everyone can agree with. If we’re arguing about millimetres it’s entered a territory beyond fair judgment.

VAR should be about definitive evidence, not speculative.
 
VAR is correct it's the application that's wrong ....

The offside rule just needs changing - instead of "if any goal-scoring part of a players body (so not arms) is offside then he's offside" it should be "if any goal-scoring part of a players body (so not arms) is onside then he's onside" - that puts the advantage back with the striker ...

Nearly every one of this seasons was he wasn't he millimetre decisions would then have gone in the striker's favour ... isn't that the whole idea?

If it's still a marginal call (say less than 20 centimetres) then the striker gets the decision ...

Whilst we are now arguing about VAR application at least we are no longer discussing blatant errors by referees and linesmen - and that was the whole point of VAR to cut out the obvious mistakes.
 

TheNewSpursy

Entitled Cunt
I honestly think we’d all be OK with VAR if the decisions were genuinely obvious. Obvious mistakes will always happen, so if a review shows that someone was a yard offside we can’t really complain.

If it’s unclear, just go for the initial decision. VAR decisions should be something that everyone can agree with. If we’re arguing about millimetres it’s entered a territory beyond fair judgment.

VAR should be about definitive evidence, not speculative.
When you have to lay a grid over a freeze frame image and for all intents and purposes randomly pick the spot on the defender and the offensive player's bodies that are "allowed" to be offside it will never be clear and obvious. I'm still in favor of a 30 second review time limit, only allowed to view replays at full speed. If you have to slow it down frame by frame it is not clear and obvious.
 
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