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Manager Ange Postecoglou

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Was sacking Ange a good idea?

  • Yes, I think it was a good idea.

    Votes: 73 64.6%
  • No, I think it was a bad idea.

    Votes: 40 35.4%

  • Total voters
    113
We also only played out first choice back four together 17 times last season. I've just sat there and worked it out. I'll give a more detailed breakdown when I'm home, but I suspect that also played into it a bit. Other than the Chelsea game, which was a complete anomaly the only game in the 17 that we got a trouncing when all four played was Newcastle away.
Just conversed with SeeSpotRun SeeSpotRun on another thread.
0.97 goals per game with them in the 1st 10 games.
1.36 goals per game with them after those games.

There was definitely a downturn in or defending (probably because things were figured out by the oppo) after the early season start.

(edit, it was this thread lolz)
 
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I remember after a few pints on a couch somewhere last season, around February after the Wolves match, it finally clicked for me that our crap attacking play is the real trigger for our defensive woes.
It's all linked though.
The attackers dwell too long and give the ball away, but the defence, to a man, are all in the opposition half. All it takes is a quick forward and quick ball through/over and they're in.
 
We also only played out first choice back four together 17 times last season. I've just sat there and worked it out. I'll give a more detailed breakdown when I'm home, but I suspect that also played into it a bit. Other than the Chelsea game, which was a complete anomaly the only game in the 17 that we got a trouncing when all four played was Newcastle away.
Right, replying to Matt but I suppose this is for everyone, perhaps nobody more than myself.

In the first ten games last season we managed to play our first choice back four eight times. We started the season with Emerson at RB but Porro then came in against United, and for 8 consecutive matches we played Porro, Romero, Van de Den and Udogie. The tenth game in that sequence was Palace, which Udogie missed. We sat 1st after that sequence, with 26 points only topping points against Brentford and Woolwich. Then came Chelsea.

10 Games, 26 Points, 8/10 matches with preferred defence.

In the following ten matches we suffered from Romero's three match suspension, Van de Ven's hamstring injury and Udogie's initial suspension, playing an absolute makeshift defence. In fact the only match in the run we played all four of our defenders was the Chelsea game, and the preferred defensive unit would not return until United in January. In this run we obviously fell apart at Chelsea, lost to Wolves, Villa and West Ham with a brave fightback against City in there too. We then managed a few wins before collapsing against Brighton, with a tanking of Newcastle the highlight, ending the year beating Bournemouth. With four wins and a draw, the results were only half as good as the run before.

9 Games, 13 Points, 1/10 matches with preferred defence.

Happy New Year! We were lucky with the league fixtures here, only two games in January and the first ensured that we had a full defence back for the first time since November as Porro, Romero, Van De Den and Udogie all lined up against United. Wins against Brentford, Brighton, Palace and Villa, arguably our strongest performance of the season saw us pick up 19/27 points, although we lost to Wolves again. And Fulham. These nine matches saw the preferred defence 5/9 times.

9 Games, 19 Points, 5/9 matches with the preferred defence.

With admittedly a nasty run of fixtures to finish the season, the wheels well and truly came off. In nine matches we lost FIVE of them, four in a row. It wasn't helped by Udogie picking up an injury which meant that the first choice back four played just three times.

9 Games, 10 Points, 3/9 matches with the preferred defence.

TOTAL 38 games, 66 Points, 17/38 matches with the preferred defence.

So, less than half of the games with our first choice defence. Now, how many of those games did with lose with our first choice defenders? Only TWO. The Chelsea game, which, let's be honest, was an absolute anomaly and we lost with 9 men and only Porro still in the defence as we capitulated. And Newcastle away, which although a disgrace of a performance, sometimes you lose to a better team and get caught out. Sure, we massively rode our luck as times, and needed Micky to rescue us - which, lets face it, is most of the tactical thinking - but two losses in 17 isn't bad at all. Imagine what would happen if we actually had them available more of the time, or had dependable back-ups that can fill in.

1. Chelsea - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Udogie.
2. Wolves - Porro, Dier, Davies, Emerson
3. Villa - Porro, Emerson, Davies, Udogie
4. West Ham - Porro, Romero, Davies, Udogie
5. Brighton - Porro, Emerson, Davies, Udogie
6. Wolves - Emerson, Romero, Van de Ven, Davies
7. Fulham - Porro, Romero, Dragusin, Udogie
8. Newscastle - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Udogie
9. Woolwich - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Davies
10. Chelsea - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Emerson
11. Liverpool - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Emerson
12. City - Porro, Romero, Dragusin, Van de Ven

Yes, we had 3/4 in many of the games in various combinations and it was largely in these games that our frailty from set pieces was exploited, but it's also fair to say that in some we just didn't turn up. Chelsea, Fulham, Newcastle. But it IS clear that a lack of cover at CB in the second phase of games (cheers Daniel) fucked us as much as losing both Udogie AND Davies for the run-in.

Anyway, this is my long way of saying sorry, Ange, actually it might be ok if you can keep the defence fit. And more importantly perhaps why it is imperative that we sign a left back to rotate/compete with Udogie.

And that if the bastard Chelsea game hadn't happened and played out that way we would have won the league. lol.

TL;DR we won more points with our first choice defence. Who knew?
 
It's not mega different, but it is worse.
Over a season that's the difference between 37 goals against and 52.
Both better than what we ended up with mind you :roflmao:
It's a small sample size, just over 7 full matches with those 4 on the pitch in the last 28 rounds. A couple of goals either way shifts the average a lot.
The fact that we only had our best back 4 on the future together for a quarter of the time in the last 28 rounds is interesting though.
 
Second season at pretty much every club Ange teams have improved set pieces.

Things like set pieces are details that they would have been more focused on putting in a philosophy.

Kulusevski has already said that they have been more fixated on details in training now. Then there is also just another year of chemistry in the group.
I hope your right mate, set piece play is something we need to massively improve on, if we are aiming to do well this year.
 
It's a small sample size, just over 7 full matches with those 4 on the pitch in the last 28 rounds. A couple of goals either way shifts the average a lot.
The fact that we only had our best back 4 on the future together for a quarter of the time in the last 28 rounds is interesting though.
We should be able to cope with any 3 of the 4 playing IMO.
 
Right, replying to Matt but I suppose this is for everyone, perhaps nobody more than myself.

In the first ten games last season we managed to play our first choice back four eight times. We started the season with Emerson at RB but Porro then came in against United, and for 8 consecutive matches we played Porro, Romero, Van de Den and Udogie. The tenth game in that sequence was Palace, which Udogie missed. We sat 1st after that sequence, with 26 points only topping points against Brentford and Woolwich. Then came Chelsea.

10 Games, 26 Points, 8/10 matches with preferred defence.

In the following ten matches we suffered from Romero's three match suspension, Van de Ven's hamstring injury and Udogie's initial suspension, playing an absolute makeshift defence. In fact the only match in the run we played all four of our defenders was the Chelsea game, and the preferred defensive unit would not return until United in January. In this run we obviously fell apart at Chelsea, lost to Wolves, Villa and West Ham with a brave fightback against City in there too. We then managed a few wins before collapsing against Brighton, with a tanking of Newcastle the highlight, ending the year beating Bournemouth. With four wins and a draw, the results were only half as good as the run before.

9 Games, 13 Points, 1/10 matches with preferred defence.

Happy New Year! We were lucky with the league fixtures here, only two games in January and the first ensured that we had a full defence back for the first time since November as Porro, Romero, Van De Den and Udogie all lined up against United. Wins against Brentford, Brighton, Palace and Villa, arguably our strongest performance of the season saw us pick up 19/27 points, although we lost to Wolves again. And Fulham. These nine matches saw the preferred defence 5/9 times.

9 Games, 19 Points, 5/9 matches with the preferred defence.

With admittedly a nasty run of fixtures to finish the season, the wheels well and truly came off. In nine matches we lost FIVE of them, four in a row. It wasn't helped by Udogie picking up an injury which meant that the first choice back four played just three times.

9 Games, 10 Points, 3/9 matches with the preferred defence.

TOTAL 38 games, 66 Points, 17/38 matches with the preferred defence.

So, less than half of the games with our first choice defence. Now, how many of those games did with lose with our first choice defenders? Only TWO. The Chelsea game, which, let's be honest, was an absolute anomaly and we lost with 9 men and only Porro still in the defence as we capitulated. And Newcastle away, which although a disgrace of a performance, sometimes you lose to a better team and get caught out. Sure, we massively rode our luck as times, and needed Micky to rescue us - which, lets face it, is most of the tactical thinking - but two losses in 17 isn't bad at all. Imagine what would happen if we actually had them available more of the time, or had dependable back-ups that can fill in.

1. Chelsea - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Udogie.
2. Wolves - Porro, Dier, Davies, Emerson
3. Villa - Porro, Emerson, Davies, Udogie
4. West Ham - Porro, Romero, Davies, Udogie
5. Brighton - Porro, Emerson, Davies, Udogie
6. Wolves - Emerson, Romero, Van de Ven, Davies
7. Fulham - Porro, Romero, Dragusin, Udogie
8. Newscastle - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Udogie
9. Woolwich - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Davies
10. Chelsea - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Emerson
11. Liverpool - Porro, Romero, Van de Ven, Emerson
12. City - Porro, Romero, Dragusin, Van de Ven

Yes, we had 3/4 in many of the games in various combinations and it was largely in these games that our frailty from set pieces was exploited, but it's also fair to say that in some we just didn't turn up. Chelsea, Fulham, Newcastle. But it IS clear that a lack of cover at CB in the second phase of games (cheers Daniel) fucked us as much as losing both Udogie AND Davies for the run-in.

Anyway, this is my long way of saying sorry, Ange, actually it might be ok if you can keep the defence fit. And more importantly perhaps why it is imperative that we sign a left back to rotate/compete with Udogie.

And that if the bastard Chelsea game hadn't happened and played out that way we would have won the league. lol.

TL;DR we won more points with our first choice defence. Who knew?

Its probably fair to say that we had a very good back 4 last season (Romero, Van de Venn, Porro, and Udogie) but poor back up with Emerson and Davies the real options (Sessegnon inured all season) : Dragusin arrived in January but didn't play that much and had no time to learn Ange's tactics.

I'd suggest we are a lot stronger starting this season with :

CB - Romero, Van de Venn, Dragusin and either Davies or Gray as 4th CB
RB - Porro, Spence or Gray as back up
LB - Udogie, Spence or Davies as back up or in big matches Van de Venn (also the potential option of Donley against weaker opposition)

Sure it could be stronger, but we have more depth in every position than 12 months ago, although using Spence as first choice back up for both RB and LB is not ideal - but Gray might be first choice RB back up.

So we should avoid the worst of problems we found last season with the likes of Dragusin, Spence and Gray likely to be on the bench whenever our best 4 defenders play.

And we should be able to rotate the defence, something unimaginable last season.
 

All sounds nice, but is, ultimately, pretty empty without him being given/demanding the proper quality tools to be able to that.

Plus installing solid, cohesive defensive framework.

AND set-pieces sorted.

I'd love to ride along with all the "winning" talk, because it's the right attitude, but I need to see some improvements to core deficiencies in our game.

Then I'd have more confidence in what he's saying.
 
Just conversed with SeeSpotRun SeeSpotRun on another thread.
0.97 goals per game with them in the 1st 10 games.
1.36 goals per game with them after those games.

There was definitely a downturn in or defending (probably because things were figured out by the oppo) after the early season start.

(edit, it was this thread lolz)

Take into account our very poor set piece defense and our shit defending in corners where we let the opposition push our GK around. Those deficiencies were more glaring in the second half of the season.

If I had to guess, those four are among the top 2-3 in the league at defending open play. The set pieces defending is much more about the team.

Also, we need to take the bad with the good. To really evaluate them we need to see the entire season, not just the shit times or the glorious times.

Seems to me that their average over the season is quite good.

We need them to stay healthy and to have capable back ups. We also need to have great set piece defending.
 
Take into account our very poor set piece defense and our shit defending in corners where we let the opposition push our GK around. Those deficiencies were more glaring in the second half of the season.

If I had to guess, those four are among the top 2-3 in the league at defending open play. The set pieces defending is much more about the team.

Also, we need to take the bad with the good. To really evaluate them we need to see the entire season, not just the shit times or the glorious times.

Seems to me that their average over the season is quite good.

We need them to stay healthy and to have capable back ups. We also need to have great set piece defending.
I think people have gotten too comfortable blaming set pieces for our problems. That all started Vs City in the FA Cup.
IIRC, 2 of Newcastles goals were open play. Al 3 or Fulhams were? 1 or 2 of Woolwich's. How many of Liverpools?
We're wide open to expose. It's mostly tactics, but sometimes players need to take a bit of responsibility. We're playing players onside by standing deep in their half. They can have a head start of VdV and still be onside.
 
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