Ok Rich look, you have clearly claimed that Ange’s system “worked” beyond the initial ten-game honeymoon period, but when pressed for specifics, your evidence boils down to anecdotes and selective examples. Saying “OK LOL” when challenged on this just avoids addressing the point.OK LOL
Wasn't just those game I picked was it mate? I picked a collection of different systems it worked against, situations and lineups like Europa League but you ignored that. Why did you ignore that?
I agree consistency does and more importantly, winning things does. Note I am NOT saying his system is validated and never have. It's only the Ange OUT crew that I see claiming a final verdict at this point. My mind is open still. I am open to watching a bit longer to see if it can work consistently and win things.
dudu is your man here. He's probably posted the list of games about 20 times though.
You mean like this season when Pep's system was getting exploited repeatedly? Funny because he didn't give up on his philosophy then either. Like I said that doesn't make Ange the same as Pep (nobody is) but it does confirm what I'm saying that stubborn belief in their philosophy is something all elite sports people share. Even if it makes them arrogant at times.
Widely recognized by who?
Really? or were those the only times you noticed tactical deviations?
A refusal to budge from an attacking philosophy isn't one dimensional. I haven't see us as being one-dimensional and the number of different goal scorers we have and the variety of different types of goals we have scored provides actual evidence that we haven't been one-dimensional. Our results and the calamity of our player availability has been boring and one-dimensional I give you that.
I guess entertainment is subjective but I think a straw poll of Spurs fans would find >90% think his football is more entertaining than Conte, Jose or Nuno for example. Tbh I think the Premier League product in general is on a massive downward spiral atm and most people are associating final result and a bit of controversy with entertainment.
Saying all that, I want to see us win. Entertainment is part of the picture but not all of it.
I don't hear soundbites, I hear a man consistently saying what he believes. People cling to them in anyway they want but will always judge their opinion of what he says based on results. If we were winning people would love what he says. We aren't so they hate every word.
Again the 10 games... we don't agree so at this point what is the value to this conversation of you just repeating it as the major basis of your opinion?
The fact that so many different managers have been binned off at the first sign of trouble is also the reason this fanbase has been conditioned to believe that changing managers is the solution. Who knows what Poch might have done if he wasn't sacked and given the license to lead the rebuild he wanted? Who knows if Jose would have won the LC if he wasn't sacked? MAybe Nuno would have turned us around have us in second like Forest... Did sacking any of them help us in any long-term way? No it didn't. The odd short term, quick hit fix of adrenaline maybe but long-term we always wound up exactly where we were.
You love to bang on about those first 10 games but that was our best start to a Premier League season ever.If that's not a higher ceiling what is?
The broader trend, as evidenced by our results and performances, shows stagnation and predictability, not progress. Cherry-picking ignores the systemic issues that have plagued us since those first ten games under him.
You’ve mentioned different systems, situations, and lineups, including the Europa League, but have yet to substantiate how any of these counter the argument of inconsistency or provide any evidence of it? Your argument boils down to “well what about that game in the Europa league or when we beat City” I am not talking about individual results, I am talking about a BROAD level of inconsistency.
If you’re going to assert a “16-game stretch of great results and decent performances,” then the burden of proof lies with you, not
dudu
Relying on him to provide evidence doesn’t strengthen your case—it undermines it. You’ve made the claim, so it’s your responsibility to back it up, especially when challenged mate, not saying this to be harsh but it’s just me being honest.Your comparison between Ange’s and Pep’s stubbornness is misguided as well imo. Pep has earned the benefit of the doubt because his philosophy has been demonstrably adaptable and successful across multiple leagues and competitions. Ange’s philosophy, by contrast, is rigid and repeatedly exploited, with little to show in terms of results or adaptability, It’s not enough to point out that all elite sportspeople share a rigid belief in their philosophy; the difference lies in their ability to evolve when necessary, which many do.
As for my claim that this is “widely recognised,” Let’s not be obtuse—most ex-professionals with extensive experience, neutral fans, and even a significant portion of our own supporters can see it. You’d struggle to find many who would argue Ange’s inflexibility is the hallmark of an elite manager and that is just the truth.
Both “Ange in” and “Ange out” camps have acknowledged the rare occasions he’s deviated from his philosophy, and every time he has, he’s been praised. The real question is why he doesn’t do it more often. Pretending this isn’t the case is deliberately evasive and acting like it is simply down to me not noticing it more often is disingenuous.
I agree, it’s true we’ve scored a range of goals but it’s the predictability of our overall system—the lack of defensive solidity and the ease with which opponents exploit us—that is what defines one-dimensionality.
“Angeball” for its own sake isn’t progress when it consistently leads to the same vulnerabilities being exposed time and time again.
Also, you say a straw poll of Spurs fans would show over 90% find Ange’s football more entertaining than Conte, Jose, or Nuno, you’re probably correct but entertainment is subjective as well, Sport for many is ultimately about winning. I’d wager a large majority of Spurs fans would gladly take Conte’s pragmatism and a fourth-place finish over Ange’s style if it meant avoiding a 14th-place slump, which is probably what we are heading for if we keep this manager here.
Ange’s soundbites aren’t hollow? Mate…many of his statements contradict themselves. He’s criticised referees and players in public despite saying he wouldn’t etc, everything he says at this point rings hollow! These inconsistencies, coupled with poor results, ARE why his words ring hollow to many of us. Winning might mask these issues, but when results and statements don’t align, criticism is inevitable wouldn’t you agree?
You dismiss the ten-game point as if it’s an overused narrative. But unless you provide evidence to counter it, it remains valid does it not? Without substantial improvement beyond that period, what other conclusion can be drawn?
Ange has yet to demonstrate consistent success in this league, and the idea that the system has a “higher ceiling” is unproven. A great start followed by months of decline isn’t evidence of a higher ceiling; it’s evidence of a system that has been figured out and exploited.
You also bring up the club’s history of sacking managers, suggesting that frequent changes haven’t helped long-term. That’s debatable imo. In some instances, a managerial change has indeed improved results. Conte’s first season is a prime example but you could list countless others.
In our current situation, with one of the worst league positions in recent/long term memory, a change isn’t just warranted; it’s essential. The argument that sticking with something clearly broken will somehow yield different results is counterintuitive.
Finally, you claim that our best-ever start to a Premier League season last year proves a higher ceiling. But football is about consistency, again, I will keep coming back to this point. A strong start means little without the ability to maintain or build on it. That’s the crux of the issue: Ange’s system hasn’t delivered consistent results, and the evidence suggests it won’t either.
Rich, It’s not about wanting Ange to fail (many have fallen into the trap of picking sides like it’s a playground here) it’s about recognising when something isn’t working and having the courage to acknowledge that.
Hope isn’t enough now imo, I love this football club just like you do, we may not agree on everything and we may never agree on Ange but I just want the best for the club and I think he is dragging it down to the gutter.
Anyway, appreciate the debate and you responding at length to me.
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